State of a mavs fan - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Thespiralgoeson · 02-26-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

Davis/Kaman aren't as good as their names sound.

Fat contracts, injury prone players. Davis doesn't care about basketball and lacks motivation. It's just speculation that he would be motivated if he came here. He already has a big contract.

Give me a break. I'll take both of them injured and unmotivated over what we have now.

fluid.forty.one · 02-26-2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

Davis/Kaman aren't as good as their names sound.

Fat contracts, injury prone players. Davis doesn't care about basketball and lacks motivation. It's just speculation that he would be motivated if he came here. He already has a big contract.

not that this justifies anything, but I think he might be more motivated playing for the mavs rather than the clippers.

SMC0007 · 02-26-2009, 03:24 PM

He would prolly suck in games but KILL us in practice

bernardos70 · 02-26-2009, 03:24 PM

No, they're not winning a championship. That much is obvious.

I have been skipping some large chunks of the game for the first time ever with the Mavs. At the beginning of the year I would stick around even when they were getting whooped. I still had hopes. I've come to realize by observing the body language of the players that you can tell whether they're gonna toughen it up and make it a game or whether they're just gonna keep getting whooped. If they don't pass the "eye-test," I turn it off and save myself the aggravation. It really does ruin my night seeing them get blown out.

Tired of Nellie ball. I would rather watch it now than what this team is currently producing. Then again, I'm sure I'd be pretty aggravated at the lack of defense and layup drills against us.

It's tough. I did not get league pass this year but have been watching it online when a link is available or on TNT or ESPN when it is on.... but it is tough.

bernardos70 · 02-26-2009, 03:48 PM

I do not buy the Davis hype. Kaman would be a definite plus, but I'm surprised at all of you that never watched Davis when he played for the Charlotte Hornets. AWFUL in all aspects. He was injured most of the time, and he would chuck up shot after shot after shot after ill advised shot. Mailed it in back then. One year of revitalized play under Nellie does nothing to prove to me that he is a changed player. Once a slacker, always a slacker.

Flacolaco · 02-26-2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernardos70

I do not buy the Davis hype. Kaman would be a definite plus, but I'm surprised at all of you that never watched Davis when he played for the Charlotte Hornets. AWFUL in all aspects. He was injured most of the time, and he would chuck up shot after shot after shot after ill advised shot. Mailed it in back then. One year of revitalized play under Nellie does nothing to prove to me that he is a changed player. Once a slacker, always a slacker.

^^This

DirkFTW · 02-26-2009, 04:31 PM

Thespiralgoeson · 02-26-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernardos70

I do not buy the Davis hype. Kaman would be a definite plus, but I'm surprised at all of you that never watched Davis when he played for the Charlotte Hornets. AWFUL in all aspects. He was injured most of the time, and he would chuck up shot after shot after shot after ill advised shot. Mailed it in back then. One year of revitalized play under Nellie does nothing to prove to me that he is a changed player. Once a slacker, always a slacker.

He may be a slacker, but at least he's a slacker that can occasionally score.

twistaeffect2004 · 02-26-2009, 04:50 PM

The thing that makes this tougher is there's no light at the end of the tunnel right now. Unless the Mavs make a big move next season, or get a high end free agent in 2010, there's no young players on this team outside of Gerald Green who make you think "wow, he might be a really good player one day." And even with Green, it seems the organization has just about given up on him assuming the trade rumors were true.

This is simply an old team who is still stuck in "win a championship" mode which has long passed them. And it's hard to get on them considering they still have 2 hall of famers on this team, but a decision must be made soon on where they want to go. These next 2 offseasons will be extremely interesting.

I personally think it's time to rebuild, but the ownership may think differently. I just don't want it to end up as one of these organizations that try to stick at the top so long that they end up on mediocrity road with no gas left for a long, long time.

twistaeffect2004 · 02-26-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

He may be a slacker, but at least he's a slacker that can occasionally score.

I completely agree. Davis has never been in a situation like he would of been in with Dallas. Playing next to a legitimate superstar in Dirk. He's never played with anyone of that caliber, so how do we know that wouldn't greatly alter his game for the better?

All I know is, the Mavs needed to make a big time move, and from the sounds of it, one was on the table and we passed it up. Whether that move would of given us the goods to make a run at the title, I don't know. But without the move? We're just playing out the stretch hopefully able to make the playoffs.

fluid.forty.one · 02-26-2009, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistaeffect2004

I completely agree. Davis has never been in a situation like he would of been in with Dallas. Playing next to a legitimate superstar in Dirk. He's never played with anyone of that caliber, so how do we know that wouldn't greatly alter his game for the better?

Didn't we say the same thing about Kidd? I mean, he was with Vince I guess.. but come on.

FreshJive · 02-26-2009, 05:16 PM

The Baron Davis injury thing is a little overhyped. He hasn't ever missed a full season. His worst season was 46 games, and I don't think he's ever missed a playoff series. The notion that he was injured most of the time in Charlotte is completely false. 82, 82, 82, 50, 67 are his games played for full seasons there.

Edit: actually in Charlotte he never missed a game the 50 and 67 were in NO

Thespiralgoeson · 02-26-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Didn't we say the same thing about Kidd? I mean, he was with Vince I guess.. but come on.

Yeah, the difference is, Baron actually has some semblance of an offensive game. Honestly, I can't understand how anybody could actually think that both Davis and Kaman wouldn't do more for us than Kidd does. The Mavs' braintrust is a joke.

dude1394 · 02-26-2009, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

a: Not a chance in hell.

b: I'm gonna be honest here, and I know people will hate me for this, but I don't just skip stretches of games anymore, I skip whole games altogether. .

I hate you.

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-26-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshJive

The Baron Davis injury thing is a little overhyped. He hasn't ever missed a full season. His worst season was 46 games, and I don't think he's ever missed a playoff series. The notion that he was injured most of the time in Charlotte is completely false. 82, 82, 82, 50, 67 are his games played for full seasons there.

Edit: actually in Charlotte he never missed a game the 50 and 67 were in NO

Ownage.

mac222b · 02-26-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

^^This

In which playoff appearances with Char. did he slack? When he averaged 17.8 on 48% shooting w/4.4reb 5.8 ass. 2.8 steals or the next year: 22.6 on 37% 7reb 7.9 ass 3.6 steals?! He's actually a big time, big game player. The perception is wrong. I've seen him this year. He still gets to the rim at will. And he's averaging like 7-8 assists 5 boards and 18 points for that terrible team. Yes, he shoots a low%. It's worth the tradeoff. Kaman and Baron both have had injury issues but they both happen to have exactly what we're lacking. the FO turning down this deal just confirms for me what is already known; they haven't got a clue. They're playing scared, like our team. I'd take Baron over Kidd straight up, especially in a playoff series. Oh, but i must not know anything about hoops then. (I've only been playing and watching for 31 yrs). No, you can go too far in the "intangibles rule" direction. I mean we'd still all take J-ho over Luke Walton, right? Talent wins out 8 times out of 10. So in one year we: over payed for Kidd when his value was lowest(w/ our best young player whose value was arguably at it's highest and about 4 other important assets). Turn down a chance to recoup some of our talent loss when Kidd's value is artificially inflated again due to his contract expiring(In a deal that would have gotten us 2 buy low borderline all-star players who happen to fill our needs almost perfectly) So we can overpay for Kidd yet again. WE HOPE.
Yes Kaman and Davis was not w/out risk. But you don't get something for nothing. Oh yeah, that's our plan for this summer. Get something for nothing, re-sign Kidd= win championship. Because we're so close to a championship that Richard Jefferson will just put us over the top. Good luck with that.

bernardos70 · 02-26-2009, 06:41 PM

Check out his regular season numbers BTW.

I wouldn't be totally against getting baron as long as it was part of getting Kaman. Never Baron by himself. Career 41% shooter? He'd just be the worst shooter on a team many already don't think shoots very well. I do not buy his work ethic at all.

fluid.forty.one · 02-26-2009, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernardos70

Check out his regular season numbers BTW.

I wouldn't be totally against getting baron as long as it was part of getting Kaman. Never Baron by himself. Career 41% shooter? He'd just be the worst shooter on a team many already don't think shoots very well. I do not buy his work ethic at all.

well, the fans would have at least been excited about the idea of his "insane basketball mojo while on the court with the dallas mavericks"...

SMC0007 · 02-26-2009, 08:14 PM

Could he wear the roller skates on the floor while playing? That would be awesome.

S.M.C. Donnie!

Thespiralgoeson · 02-26-2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernardos70

Check out his regular season numbers BTW.

I wouldn't be totally against getting baron as long as it was part of getting Kaman. Never Baron by himself. Career 41% shooter? He'd just be the worst shooter on a team many already don't think shoots very well. I do not buy his work ethic at all.

Dude, are you kidding? I'd buy that argument if we weren't talking about Jason Kidd being the player that gets traded. Kidd's career FG% is .402. Wanna try another one?

ghazi · 02-26-2009, 08:43 PM

Don't get why everyone is drinking the Baron Kool Aid. I wouldn't trade Kidd for Baron straight up, some people seem like they would like that. Kaman would've been the only reason to make that deal. Baron's superior scoring abilities are irrelevant. He's just too inefficient. He would score more, and take more shots. Which takes away shots from others. a 38-39% chucker will suck the life our of your team.

As for Baron being motivated coming here, that wouldn't be a guarantee. I don't think he really cares about the game that much. It's the same story we see with a lot of players like Vince Carter, Corey Maggette, and Baron. Contract year, play well. Get the contract, and start under performing.

But again they're both injury prone with FAT contracts, and wouldn't make us elite this year. So what would be the incentive? A few more regular season wins (if they're healthy) and a higher chance of winning a playoff series? They're too expensive for that.

Too many variables. Will they be healthy? Will Baron be motivated? Will that even make our boys in blue elite? Too many risks and factors for their contracts. WAY too many.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-26-2009, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

Don't get why everyone is drinking the Baron Kool Aid. I wouldn't trade Kidd for Baron straight up, some people seem like they would like that. Kaman would've been the only reason to make that deal. Baron's superior scoring abilities are irrelevant. He's just too inefficient. He would score more, and take more shots. Which takes away shots from others. a 38-39% chucker will suck the life our of your team.

As for Baron being motivated coming here, that wouldn't be a guarantee. I don't think he really cares about the game that much. It's the same story we see with a lot of players like Vince Carter, Corey Maggette, and Baron. Contract year, play well. Get the contract, and start under performing.

But again they're both injury prone with FAT contracts, and wouldn't make us elite this year. So what would be the incentive? A few more regular season wins (if they're healthy) and a higher chance of winning a playoff series? They're too expensive for that.

Too many variables. Will they be healthy? Will Baron be motivated? Will that even make our boys in blue elite? Too many risks and factors for their contracts. WAY too many.

I don't think anyone is drinking the Baron Davis kool-aid. But apparently there are still some folks around here drinking the Jason Kidd kool-aid. Yeah, maybe Baron for Kidd straight up would be a little more debatable, but we're not talking about Baron for Kidd. We're talking Baron and Kaman for Kidd. With that we go from having 2 scoring options to having 4, or even 5 when Terry's on the floor.

Honestly, think about it real hard now. Are you actually telling me that you wouldn't trade Kidd for Baron and Kaman if you were Cubes? If the answer is yes, then I really don't think I can continue this discussion with you.

bernardos70 · 02-26-2009, 09:20 PM

Kidd for both of them, yes. But as ghazi pointed out, Baron is a volume shooter. 41% taking as many shots as he does is kind of a problem.

Additionally, he's:

1) Streaky shooter
2) Had 1, max 1 1/2 year stand out in the league, that one being whilst playing on a team whose system was specifically geared towards making players like him look good.
3) The bearer of a huge contract. He'll be on the books til 2012/13.

So no, including Baron Davis doesn't make this a no-brainer. More like we'll take that albatross deal off the Clippers hand with Kaman, and the Clippers should be thankful for that.

But more to the point, Baron isn't a deal sweetener at all. So mentioning he's included in the deal as though it is some sort of tremendous bonus is not flying with me.

dude1394 · 02-26-2009, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If the Mavs really had the option to do that and chose not to do it, then Cuban and Donnie both should be shot.

I agree spiral...there's been plenty of folks who have also said that would be a bad deal because of contracts and current play...but I dont' get it. Anyone who would have said devin for davis/kaman...I would have jumped up and down screaming joyfully.

But I believe I read from stein that cubes/nelson turned it down. It's one of the things that's making me thing about NOT re-upping the season tickets. If they are going to be that stupid...what exactly is the point.

dude1394 · 02-26-2009, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I don't think anyone is drinking the Baron Davis kool-aid. But apparently there are still some folks around here drinking the Jason Kidd kool-aid. Yeah, maybe Baron for Kidd straight up would be a little more debatable, but we're not talking about Baron for Kidd. We're talking Baron and Kaman for Kidd. With that we go from having 2 scoring options to having 4, or even 5 when Terry's on the floor.

Honestly, think about it real hard now. Are you actually telling me that you wouldn't trade Kidd for Baron and Kaman if you were Cubes? If the answer is yes, then I really don't think I can continue this discussion with you.

After the donnie nelson chalk talk and the discussion by he and blackman about why the mavs were better with jkiddo than devin (because of his great floor generalship)...my buddy said...

"one thing we learned..the mavs front office way overvalues kidd". Couldnt' agree more.

twistaeffect2004 · 02-26-2009, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

After the donnie nelson chalk talk and the discussion by he and blackman about why the mavs were better with jkiddo than devin (because of his great floor generalship)...my buddy said...

"one thing we learned..the mavs front office way overvalues kidd". Couldnt' agree more.

Either that Dude, or they won't admit their mistake. It's one of the two.

J Kidd on the right team can be one hell of a player. Thing is, we just don't have the players surrounding him who compliment his game.

LonghornDub · 02-27-2009, 12:41 AM

I don't want Baron on this team. Kaman, hell f*cking yes. I would consider taking Baron if it meant we could get Kaman too, but only because I'd really like to have Kaman.

Tokey41 · 02-27-2009, 01:43 AM

That was the proposed deal, wasn't it? Baron/Kaman for Kidd. Regardless of people's opinions on Baron that trade would have given us something we desperately needed, offensive options. Furthermore, if Davis was playing third to fourth fiddle on a team he wouldn't be nearly as inefficient, in fact, who's to say he wouldn't step up other areas of his game? It was mentioned but clearly it needs to be stated again: Davis has never played with another legitmate star. He would have Dirk, Josh, and Kaman to carry the load for him. All he would need to do is be an incredible role player (overpriced of course) and this team would be elite again with that lineup.

That's why the rejection of this trade is mind boggling, when we traded for Kidd the front office sent a clear message to the fans: we want to win now. The Kidd experiment is an epic failure and the one chance they had (this season) to change the course of that experiment was passed over. They really don't know what they are doing, do they?

mac222b · 02-27-2009, 02:10 AM

Those of us on the Baron bandwagon are clearly in the minority but stars win in this league, plain and simple. He would be a nice compliment to Dirk. He would take some of the heat off of him in ways similar to Devin. And he averages around 7 assists per game for his career, is an excellent rebounder and plays good D. He's not just a chucker.
If we had done this deal we could've filled our 2 guard spot and gotten another bench guy w/ our exceptions. We could've then traded Stack for a draft pick+(hedging our bets a little)giving us 2 first rounders or even let him expire if $'s tight. I like Kidd. Kidd+whomever we get this offseason will, i'm sure, be about as good if not better than Kaman/Davis(and cost about the same BTW). But we have no way of knowing if the RIGHT combination of players we need will be available. A low post scorer AND a legit wingman for Dirk who can get to the hoop at will? With our mid-level(Buckner,Eddie Jones,Diop anyone?Donnie?) and theStack/Carroll contracts. I doubt it. We'll see.

mac222b · 02-27-2009, 02:19 AM

And for all of the talk of Kidd's great leadership, and he does provide plenty, he tightens up like a fill in the blank in the 4th quarter (on offense) and was overmatched in the playoffs last year. Baron steps up in similar situations. Something this team desperately needs.

eyedentifyme · 02-27-2009, 05:24 AM

The Mavericks believe there's a better deal out there.

LonghornDub · 02-27-2009, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

3) I don't want Nellie Ball back, and I don't think Dirk is mailing it in. He's just having a tough time right now. In a week or two we'll all be wondering what the hell we were thinking when we asked if he'd given up.

.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-28-2009, 04:47 AM

You know, with regards to the Mavs rejecting the Kidd/Davis&Kaman trade, I'm honestly wondering if it's not purely a money issue. With the economy the way it is, I think it's totally possible that maybe Cuban realizes that this team isn't going to win a championship and chose to just hold on to that expiring contract rather than spend millions more on another gamble. Lots of teams now are in full cost-cutting mode.

ghazi · 02-28-2009, 06:01 AM

I really hope that wasn't the reason behind it. I really do hope the reason was their injury history!

Stackhouse and J-Ho are gonna have decent value this summer. If the FO is willing to take on contract, I really do think we could net some pieces from them. If they're cheap, then we're probably worse in 2009-2010 then we are this year, now THAT'S gonna be painful.

Underdog · 02-28-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

You know, with regards to the Mavs rejecting the Kidd/Davis&Kaman trade, I'm honestly wondering if it's not purely a money issue. With the economy the way it is, I think it's totally possible that maybe Cuban realizes that this team isn't going to win a championship and chose to just hold on to that expiring contract rather than spend millions more on another gamble. Lots of teams now are in full cost-cutting mode.

Either that or the front office realized that trading for Baron/Kaman would be putting all their eggs in one basket and wouldn't leave them ANY assets to make significant moves for the duration of Dirk's contract...

Besides, Baron/Kaman makes us a better team, but winning a ring would still be a long shot with that lineup - no point in going "all-in" if it doesn't put you over the top...

dude1394 · 02-28-2009, 09:16 AM

I wish I knew which it was...because talent-wise I don't see it. However cubes published that crazy metric stating how jkiddo was the second best player in the league...good grief and they talk like he's greatness. I think they overvalue the hell out of him and they expect to re-sign him, not use that expiring contract. IMO it looks like they'll save about 10mill next year then maybe another 10-20 a couple years from that...

BUT..they then still have to sign someone of significance or they'll just be a mediocre team anyway..so the dollars will still be spent. But they'll get to keep jkiddo...the second best player in the league.

I think my buddy had it right, they just way over-value him.

I think winning a ring with davis/kaman is not much more of a long-shot than hoping for 2010...THAT's a long-shot.

Underdog · 02-28-2009, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I think winning a ring with davis/kaman is not much more of a long-shot than hoping for 2010...THAT's a long-shot.

I agree and that's enough reason not to pull the trigger - we're not landing LeBron/Wade/Bosh, nor would we win a ring with Baron/Kaman...

We better hope there's a THIRD option that these guys who get paid to make these decisions see that we don't (because it's a sad day when a bunch of nerds on an Internet forum have more foresight and basketball knowledge than the Mavs front office...)

jthig32 · 02-28-2009, 11:10 AM

Are we really debating this again? Baron Davis has a terrible contract and has shown himself to be a dog again immediately after getting his big contract. He's an over rated player, especially around here where people remember him killing us in one playoff series.

Chris Kaman has a healthy contract of his own and is experiencing foot problems, which can be the kiss of death for a big seven footer.

If you make that deal you are locked into an insane amount of money for a long, long time. That is your one move for the next three seasons. And given that fact, it's not a good enough move.

Now, if this team doesn't use the flexibility they have to make a splashy trade/signing over the next 12 months then my argument will be moot. But I think they will.

dalger · 02-28-2009, 12:00 PM

I know that the pros and cons of getting Davis and Kaman have been discussed. While I think that we would be a better team with them than we are now, I'm not sure that it would put us over the top which should be the main interest in putting such a big deal together. Davis' contract (Kaman's not so much) and their health issues are potentially problematic as well.

I would have liked to see a deal to at least have some hope for this post season, but sometimes no deal is the best deal. Still, something like Diop/Barea for Felton or Stack/Bass for Kaman would have been nice and maybe not even that unrealistic.

Dtownsfinest · 02-28-2009, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Are we really debating this again? Baron Davis has a terrible contract and has shown himself to be a dog again immediately after getting his big contract. He's an over rated player, especially around here where people remember him killing us in one playoff series.

Chris Kaman has a healthy contract of his own and is experiencing foot problems, which can be the kiss of death for a big seven footer.

If you make that deal you are locked into an insane amount of money for a long, long time. That is your one move for the next three seasons. And given that fact, it's not a good enough move.

Now, if this team doesn't use the flexibility they have to make a splashy trade/signing over the next 12 months then my argument will be moot. But I think they will.

What do the Mavs have that leads you to believe they will make a splashy signing or trade? In 2010? And how does doing that Kaman and Baron deal affect them from being able to still make that flashy move? The deal was for Kidd.