Do you think we'll make a major trade before the deadline?

[CATCH-17]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

MMB will look over the trade options that are popping up across the league and determine if they are hits or misses...be on the lookout for that. It should be up tomorrow or Weds.

Think we'll move Caron?

[mavs777]

Rumor is, NJ is very reluctant to take on Harrington's contract, hence the small hold up in the deal, maybe Dallas can get in this

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by mavs777

Rumor is, NJ is very reluctant to take on Harrington's contract, hence the small hold up in the deal, maybe Dallas can get in this

Not if it involves taking on Harrington...

[CATCH-17]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Not if it involves taking on Harrington...

We wouldnt want Harrington?

Bummer.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by CATCH-17

We wouldnt want Harrington?

Bummer.

They did, this summer...but not at the current price-tag

[CATCH-17]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

They did, this summer...but not at the current price-tag

Dang.

Well I'm hoping we get a bargain somehow during this fiasco.

We are major move from getting to the finals IMO.

If we could land Harrington and Nene that would be so big.

I really like Caron but I would personally trade him away if there is a deal to be had.


I wish Demver would give us Melo for Butler lol.

[ReDirkulous Tyme]

Originally Posted by CATCH-17

Dang.

Well I'm hoping we get a bargain somehow during this fiasco.

We are major move from getting to the finals IMO.

If we could land Harrington and Nene that would be so big.

I really like Caron but I would personally trade him away if there is a deal to be had.


I wish Demver would give us Melo for Butler lol.

In all reality, we need a starting 3 right now. Marion needs to continue coming off the bench like he has been, and we need to pick up a 3 who can create his own shot and do it with the drive, not the step-back jumper. Dirk needs a proven 2nd option. As much as I love Roddy, and his potential, he isn't ready for that kind of pressure yet.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by ReDirkulous Tyme

In all reality, we need a starting 3 right now. Marion needs to continue coming off the bench like he has been, and we need to pick up a 3 who can create his own shot and do it with the drive, not the step-back jumper. Dirk needs a proven 2nd option. As much as I love Roddy, and his potential, he isn't ready for that kind of pressure yet.

The problem is there isn't that 3 available from all signs, Gay from all signs isn't available, and Crash is a third option

There are second options that can be had imo but they are 2 guards (Ellis and Martin)

I guess if you want a 3 best bet Jackson but I am not even sure Charlotte will show him anymore with how they are playing, plus reportedly he was pissed in Brown's slow style so he might not love it here

[ReDirkulous Tyme]

Originally Posted by mavs777

The problem is there isn't that 3 available from all signs, Gay from all signs isn't available, and Crash is a third option

There are second options that can be had imo but they are 2 guards (Ellis and Martin)

I guess if you want a 3 best bet Jackson but I am not even sure Charlotte will show him anymore with how they are playing, plus reportedly he was pissed in Brown's slow style so he might not love it here

Actually, we need to find a way to get in on the Denver/NJ/Detroit trade and pick up Devin Harris, then find a way to pick up S-Jax. The reason I say Jackson, as opposed to Kevin Martin or AI, is that I think we can pick up Jackson without giving up Roddy. If we could get guys of Jackson's and Harris' caliber, we will be poised to make a championship run. For what WE NEED on this team, S-Jax and DH would fill our needs perfectly, and would allow Roddy to flourish as the 2, instead of attempting to play him at the 1.

[CATCH-17]

Originally Posted by ReDirkulous Tyme

Actually, we need to find a way to get in on the Denver/NJ/Detroit trade and pick up Devin Harris, then find a way to pick up S-Jax. The reason I say Jackson, as opposed to Kevin Martin or AI, is that I think we can pick up Jackson without giving up Roddy. If we could get guys of Jackson's and Harris' caliber, we will be poised to make a championship run. For what WE NEED on this team, S-Jax and DH would fill our needs perfectly, and would allow Roddy to flourish as the 2, instead of attempting to play him at the 1.

Ah... You want to give up Jet? I like your thinking.

[EricaLubarsky]

giving up JET is one of the stupidest things the Mavs could do next to trading Dirk. Honestly, what gets into people?

1) He's one of the best clutch scorers in the entire league
2) He's one of the few guys we have that can hit the three with any consistency
3) He's one of this team's leaders
4) When nothing else works, he IS our offense with Dirk. The two-man game with Dirk and Terry is still our most potent offensive weapon against strong half-court defenses.
5) Terry is one of the better +/- guys on our team.

[CATCH-17]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

giving up JET is one of the stupidest things the Mavs could do next to trading Dirk. Honestly, what gets into people?

1) He's one of the best clutch scorers in the entire league
2) He's one of the few guys we have that can hit the three with any consistency
3) He's one of this team's leaders
4) When nothing else works, he IS our offense with Dirk. The two-man game with Dirk and Terry is still our most potent offensive weapon against strong half-court defenses.
5) Terry is one of the better +/- guys on our team.

Terry disapears in the post season far to often for my taste.

He's another jump shooter who gets cold in the Summer.


I'd give up Terry for Jackson.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by CATCH-17

Terry disapears in the post season far to often for my taste.

He's another jump shooter who gets cold in the Summer.


I'd give up Terry for Jackson.

Im just glad you dont run this team.

[EricaLubarsky]

49.1% eFG
6.7 pass rating
18.6 "hands" rating (TO/handles)
68.1% clutch eFG

48.4% eFG
5.7 pass rating
13.3 "hands" rating (TO/handles)
39.3% clutch eFG

who is the better player?

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

1) He's one of the best clutch scorers in the entire league

Unfortunately he became a true regular season hero the past seasons.

2) He's one of the few guys we have that can hit the three with any consistency

I was thinking about a week ago and checked some stats at yahoo. The past four years he is shooting ~36%, for me thats average and not a deadly 3p shooter.

3) He's one of this team's leaders
4) When nothing else works, he IS our offense with Dirk. The two-man game with Dirk and Terry is still our most potent offensive weapon against strong half-court defenses.
5) Terry is one of the better +/- guys on our team.

True.

We dont need to replace Terry, we need to reduce his importance.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Unfortunately he became a true regular season hero the past seasons.

Unfortunately? Its wonderful having a guy that shoots an eFG% of 70% in the clutch (much higher than Dirk, BTW). What is unfortunate about that?

I was thinking about a week ago and checked some stats at yahoo. The past four years he is shooting ~36%, for me thats average and not a deadly 3p shooter.

36% translates to 54% shooting from 2, and is more than enough to space the floor, particularly because his eFG jumps from 49.1% to 68.1% in the clutch. eFG being a better measure of overall scoring efficiency because it is weighted for fta and 3pters. 36% is also not a league average. Only a handful of players that take a lot of 3pters are above 40%

We don't need to replace Terry, we need to reduce his importance.

I'll give you that as long as you are saying we need someone to create shots and score for the first three quarters a la Butler. If you depend on Terry to keep us in the game for 4 quarters every game with his shooting, you will lose a lot of games. If you accept that he's a leader of this team that is much more important than a quick glimpse at his simple stats say and dont see a single 3-16 game and say "trade him" then I can respect it. I just hate the knee-jerk "trade Terry" talk around here, particularly when he just has an off game, from posters that don't see the in-depth stats like just how incredible he is in the fourth for us

[ReDirkulous Tyme]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Unfortunately? Its wonderful having a guy that shoots an eFG% of 70% in the clutch (much higher than Dirk, BTW). What is unfortunate about that?


36% translates to 54% shooting from 2, and is more than enough to space the floor, particularly because his eFG jumps from 49.1% to 68.1% in the clutch. eFG being a better measure of overall scoring efficiency because it is weighted for fta and 3pters. 36% is also not a league average. Only a handful of players that take a lot of 3pters are above 40%


I'll give you that as long as you are saying we need someone to create shots and score for the first three quarters a la Butler. If you depend on Terry to keep us in the game for 4 quarters every game with his shooting, you will lose a lot of games. If you accept that he's a leader of this team that is much more important than a quick glimpse at his simple stats say and dont see a single 3-16 game and say "trade him" then I can respect it. I just hate the knee-jerk "trade Terry" talk around here, particularly when he just has an off game, from posters that don't see the in-depth stats like just how incredible he is in the fourth for us

See, I am pretty sure you are only taking "clutch" stats from the regular season. Just look at his playoff performances over the past 3 years. I mean seriously, has he even put together a consistently good offensive performance for an entire playoff series in the last 3 years? He is a jump shooter, plain and simple, and an EXTREMELY streaky one at that. It's fine if he is the uber clutchness in the 4th quarter during the regular season, but if that doesn't translate to the playoffs it doesn't mean a DAMN thing. Jason Terry is fine as a 6th man, but Roddy should be taking all of his significant minutes once he gets healthy and back on the court for a couple weeks.

Jason Terry is a liability. Every coach and every shooter will tell you that if you're bricking everything, as a shooter, you can't lose confidence and you have to shoot your way through the slump. The problem lies in the fact that Terry seems to slump in the playoffs, fairly consistently, and is unable to shoot his way out of it. I personally blame Jet more than anyone currently on the Mavs roster for the mavs mediocrity in the playoffs over the last few years. He is a great regular season 6th man, but he is too one-dimensional. You can throw out clutch stats and 4th quarter stats all you want, but it's the playoffs that matter. With or without Jet, this team will make the playoffs. Personally, I think we would play better in the playoffs with him playing less than 12mpg...

oh, and btw, this isn't a knee-jerk opinion. I've been wanting to get rid of Terry, or at least drastically reduce his role for the last 2 1/2 years. I've been seeing the Jerry Stackhouse trend beginning to take over Terry for awhile. Only difference was, even when Stack began to start sucking, he always seemed to deliver in the playoffs. I think if you honestly think about it, Terry has lost FAR more games in the playoffs for us than he has won.

[CATCH-17]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Im just glad you dont run this team.

Listen, I like Jet a lot. I appreciate his abilities. But come playoff time he has been part of the problem.

I don't trust the guy as a 2nd scoring option in the post season... Sorry.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by CATCH-17

Listen, I like Jet a lot. I appreciate his abilities. But come playoff time he has been part of the problem.

I don't trust the guy as a 2nd scoring option in the post season... Sorry.

Who said I wanted him as a 2nd scoring option? He's just a pillar of this team and a spiritual team captain and shouldnt be traded for an inferior player. You proposed trading Terry for Cap'n Jack and I pointed out how ridiculous that is.

Im a full advocate of getting another scorer on this team-- whether its Prince, Jackson, Iggy, or whoever. I've said openly that losing Butler has dropped us from a top echelon team to a 4-8seed underdog. We need to add talent to this team with the subtraction of Butler.

You just cant trade away a team leader and chemistry guy for the worst offensive option we have to replace Butler and think that its a good move.

[ReDirkulous Tyme]

also decided to find some stats for you:

Playoffs:

06-07: 17ppg (decent) 42% from the field and 28% from 3 - all in all, an abysmal playoff series.

07-08: 16ppg 43% from the field and 43% from 3 - by far his best postseason since the finals run

08-09 - 14.3ppg 39% from the field and 37% from 3 - garbage

09-10 - 12.7ppg 37% from the field and 40% from 3 - garbage

I mean shit, even in 05-06 (Jet's best playoff run) he only shot 30% from 3. That is absolutely terrible for a so-called "3 point specialist).

Jason Terry hasn't really put together a postseason, worthy of titling him as a legitimate 2nd scoring option in the 4th quarter, since he has been here. In addition, this is only taking into consideration the offensive side of the ball. And I think we all know Jet's defensive liabilities.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by ReDirkulous Tyme

Jason Terry hasn't really put together a postseason, worthy of being titled as a legitimate 2nd scoring option

Fighting a straw man is fun isnt it?

[ReDirkulous Tyme]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Fighting a straw man is fun isnt it?

nice rebuttal

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by ReDirkulous Tyme

nice rebuttal

its all the rebuttal I needed because you obviously misread my argument and ascribed ideas to me that I never said and did not support.

[ReDirkulous Tyme]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

its all the rebuttal I needed because you obviously misread my argument and ascribed ideas to me that I never said and did not support.

I did address your argument, I just did so indirectly. Let me directly address your argument for you:

I would trade Jason Terry for Captain Jack in a heartbeat. Captain Jack, unlike Jet, has shown he performs in the playoffs. His attitude doesn't really bother me, given how the Mavs veterans and coaching staff have handled ego issues, along with other potential mental cases like Stevenson. That is purely from a mental standpoint. Offensively, Jackson is far more diverse than Jason Terry, and can score in a variety of ways that Jet could never dream of mimicking. On defense, I shouldn't really even need to point out far superior Jackson is to Terry. JET's trade value will not get higher than it is now, and his game is only going to deteriorate from here on out.

Think of this, who are the only 2 players that remain from the Finals team. That would be Dirk and Jet. Dirk isn't the problem. The common denominator, to me, seems to be Jason Terry. So to address your argument, we should DEFINITELY trade Jet for Captain Jack if at all possible.

Tyson Chandler has already started, and will continue to fill the vocal and emotional leadership role that Terry has held for so long. I agree that his leadership is one of Jet's most valuable assets to this team, but this leadership can, and is being replaced.

edit: I realize that Jackson's shooting percentages don't reflect the playoff prowess I speak of, but keep in mind that on most of the teams he has played for, he has been their #1 offensive option. He, most assuredly, isn't anywhere close to a real first option on offense, but I think he would flourish as a 2nd.

[mavs777]

pipe dream:http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=4lp5mkv

[sefant77]

I wont trade Terry for Jax because its too marginal at best.

But yes, if there is a trade available where we get two key pieces back (silly example Bobcats wont do Jax-Butler but would do Butler+Terry for Jax/Crash) i do it in a heartbeat.

Yes, Terry is a leader, yes he is (RS) clutch in the 4th but he definatly lost "key piece of the roster" status for me during the past (post-)seasons.

[Male30Dan]

Relying on Jason Terry is like relying on a retarded dog. Sure, sometimes he jumps up and loves you when you call his name and everything seems great. Of course when there is a fire and you really need him to wake your family up or you all die he might just be in the corner licking the carpet.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by mavs777

pipe dream:http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=4lp5mkv

Not sure if Houston takes Roddy, with smallish guards in Lowry and Brooks already in. Though as another cost cutting measure they can package Brooks with a contract and off they go. Not bad for our return, Martin takes over the full time gig at the 2, Battier slides into the 3, with Marion returning to the bench as the backup forward. Ian and Ajinca need to come up big. Can't see the Cavs all that interested in Haywood's contract.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by sefant77

I wont trade Terry for Jax because its too marginal at best.

But yes, if there is a trade available where we get two key pieces back (silly example Bobcats wont do Jax-Butler but would do Butler+Terry for Jax/Crash) i do it in a heartbeat.

Yes, Terry is a leader, yes he is (RS) clutch in the 4th but he definatly lost "key piece of the roster" status for me during the past (post-)seasons.

hahaha, you never know, just to unload long term deals....Lakers did unload Gasol for Gasol. MJ should go around the league pedaling the package for expirings see what he can get....Terry-Butler might be the best. I think Jax can take over that vocal role of Terry's.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by ReDirkulous Tyme

I would trade Jason Terry for Captain Jack in a heartbeat. Captain Jack, unlike Jet, has shown he performs in the playoffs.

I love how that contradicts the stats.
09-10
Terry (as a sixth man)
37% from the field and
40% from 3 (which you call garbage)

Jackson (as a starter)
35.8% from the field
16.7% from 3

Career
Terry
44% from the field and
37% from 3 (which you call garbage)

Jackson
39.1% from the field
31.8% from 3

His attitude doesn't really bother me, given how the Mavs veterans and coaching staff have handled ego issues, along with other potential mental cases like Stevenson. That is purely from a mental standpoint.

Conjecture but I'll give it to you.

Offensively, Jackson is far more diverse than Jason Terry, and can score in a variety of ways that Jet could never dream of mimicking.

The worst kind of hyperbole and who cares if he's more "diverse" if he cant score?

On defense, I shouldn't really even need to point out far superior Jackson is to Terry.

I dont think anyone would really argue this one, but you are comparing apples to Oranges. One is an offensive spark from the bench, the other one would be a starter.

JET's trade value will not get higher than it is now, and his game is only going to deteriorate from here on out.

Even if teams would take his 22million dollar contract that spills over into the next season where we could have a lockout, I dont see how Terry's trade value is all that high, and Terry has a lot of intangibles for this team that other teams would not get or expect like leadership. He's more valuable to us than he would be to any other team. I'd argue that his contract would be more valuable to other teams as an expiring halfway through next season than it would be right now and that we'd lose a lot more than you estimate by trading him.

Think of this, who are the only 2 players that remain from the Finals team. That would be Dirk and Jet. Dirk isn't the problem. The common denominator, to me, seems to be Jason Terry.

That is the most silly thing I have ever heard and I've heard a lot of silly arguments on this board. It doesnt even hold together logically even if the NBA was a 2-man game. I mean you forget coaching changes, forget team chemistry, forget the other 13 players, forget the opponents that we played, disregard rules changes in the NBA and even then, its not an isolated variable. Can I throw out a few other hypotheses?

Maybe the problems we've had since the finals year were issues of chemistry. Maybe we had inconsistent coaching forcing players to be things they werent. Maybe we mixed up the roster too often to ever build consistent chemistry. Maybe we billed a broken down Kidd as a savior because we realized that Harris couldnt be the playmaker we had in Nash. Maybe we've been a team of loose, misfitting parts during the Cuban era and having Nash just helped us to forget that we had a rag-tag team of misfitting pieces. Maybe this team was heading to the finals again WITH Terry before Butler left because we finally had a cohesive team that allowed each player to do only those things that they were good at/could do? Maybe Terry is at least a part of the resurgence of this team? Maybe, just maybe Terry is best when he ISN'T asked to be a starter and the second scoring option. Maybe Terry is a punchy scorer that can spread the floor with his shooting that can hit clutch shots and pick up a couple of steals and little else. Maybe that's something good teams need off the bench? Maybe we just faced teams that knew how to blow our 2dimensional team down. Maybe we faced teams that took advantage of the new guards for driving guards. Maybe we didnt have a consistent defensive system that could even slow teams down. Maybe guys like Howard were overrated. Maybe we continued to make strange moves that puzzled some coaches in the league.

Those are just a few hypotheses that might partially explain how we've been a low-quality playoff team and all work just as well as the ridiculous logic that keeping Terry from 05-06 to 10-11 is the reason we went from finals team (when he played on that team) to first-round-exit-team (also with him)

Tyson Chandler has already started, and will continue to fill the vocal and emotional leadership role that Terry has held for so long. I agree that his leadership is one of Jet's most valuable assets to this team, but this leadership can, and is being replaced.

I agree that Chandler has been doing a great job of showing on-floor leadership. He's been a passionate player that has helped us make the next step. I just dont think that makes Terry's leadership obsolete. I'm not arguing against Jackson or any trade at all-- just that when Terry is given an opportunity to succeed, he is an enormous positive for this team, even above the statline.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Relying on Jason Terry is like relying on a retarded dog. Sure, sometimes he jumps up and loves you when you call his name and everything seems great. Of course when there is a fire and you really need him to wake your family up or you all die he might just be in the corner licking the carpet.

Thanks!

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by mavs777

pipe dream:http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=4lp5mkv

dont like Jamison on this team one bit because he provides so very little and is so bad defensively, but Battier is a pure winner and Martin could really tear it up when Dirk is resting or in a double

And Roddy and an expiring for Battier, Martin and Buddinger? Not gonna happen.

[ReDirkulous Tyme]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I love how that contradicts the stats.
09-10
Terry (as a sixth man)
37% from the field and
40% from 3 (which you call garbage)

Jackson (as a starter)
35.8% from the field
16.7% from 3

Career
Terry
44% from the field and
37% from 3 (which you call garbage)

Jackson
39.1% from the field
31.8% from 3


Conjecture but I'll give it to you.


The worst kind of hyperbole and who cares if he's more "diverse" if he cant score?


I dont think anyone would really argue this one, but you are comparing apples to Oranges. One is an offensive spark from the bench, the other one would be a starter.

Even if teams would take his 22million dollar contract that spills over into the next season where we could have a lockout, I dont see how Terry's trade value is all that high, and Terry has a lot of intangibles for this team that other teams would not get or expect like leadership. He's more valuable to us than he would be to any other team. I'd argue that his contract would be more valuable to other teams as an expiring halfway through next season than it would be right now and that we'd lose a lot more than you estimate by trading him.


That is the most silly thing I have ever heard and I've heard a lot of silly arguments on this board. It doesnt even hold together logically even if the NBA was a 2-man game. I mean you forget coaching changes, forget team chemistry, forget the other 13 players, forget the opponents that we played, disregard rules changes in the NBA and even then, its not an isolated variable. Can I throw out a few other hypotheses?

1) Maybe the problems we've had since the finals year were issues of chemistry. Maybe we had inconsistent coaching forcing players to be things they werent. Maybe we mixed up the roster too often to ever build consistent chemistry. Maybe we billed a broken down Kidd as a savior because we realized that Harris couldnt be the playmaker we had in Nash. Maybe we've been a team of loose, misfitting parts during the Cuban era and having Nash just helped us to forget that we had a rag-tag team of misfitting pieces. Maybe this team was heading to the finals again WITH Terry before Butler left because we finally had a cohesive team that allowed each player to do only those things that they were good at/could do? Maybe Terry is at least a part of the resurgence of this team? Maybe, just maybe Terry is best when he ISN'T asked to be a starter and the second scoring option. Maybe Terry is a punchy scorer that can spread the floor with his shooting that can hit clutch shots and pick up a couple of steals and little else. Maybe that's something good teams need off the bench?


I agree that Chandler has been doing a great job of showing on-floor leadership. He's been a passionate player that has helped us make the next step. I just dont think that makes Terry's leadership obsolete. I'm not arguing against Jackson or any trade at all-- just that when Terry is given an opportunity to succeed, he is an enormous positive for this team, even above the statline.

First, the fact that Jet shoots a better percentage as a 6th man than Jax does as a starter can be somewhat explained. Jackson is Charlotte's best offensive option. Teams playing against Charlotte will almost always put their best wing defender on him. When a player is being guarded by the opposing team's lock-down defender, said player's shooting percentages will inevitably drop.

In addition, the fact that he is a diverse scorer is IMPERATIVE to being an integral offensive option in the playoffs. The fact is, jump shooters who don't have a bunch of length (aka: Dirk) are frequently shut down in the playoffs. If a player doesn't have the ability to get in the lane and finish, defenses don't need to give that player space on offense, and can fairly easily take away their jump shot. Jackson has the ability to shoot the 3, drive the lane, finish, and he has a nice post up game to supplement his drive and 3 point shot. This type of player would be MUCH harder to defend come playoff time. If we could get the caliber of players that I would like, without giving up Jet, I'm all for it. However, you rarely get something for nothing, and I would rather give up Jet than some other players on our roster.

What I meant in respect to Jet and Dirk being the only 2 left from the Finals team was that we HAVE completely overturned our roster from top to bottom, yet we still haven't found a way to win even with the Big German. Trust me, I am factoring in all these variables that you claim I haven't. The fact that everything in this league has changed since we went to the finals makes me think that there is one more thing we haven't changed that needs to be changed. I believe this is because every year we expect Terry to perform as well as he did in the regular season, and every season he disappoints. At the very minimum, I would like to reduce Terry's role to the point where we don't DEPEND on him at all to get to the finals.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by ReDirkulous Tyme

What I meant in respect to Jet and Dirk being the only 2 left from the Finals team was that we HAVE completely overturned our roster from top to bottom, yet we still haven't found a way to win even with the Big German. Trust me, I am factoring in all these variables that you claim I haven't.

I dont trust you because there is no way you could have considered every variable, and the very fact that there has been such an enormous roster turnover is reason to question your idea at all. Teams take time to gel-- and not just 20-30 games.

There isnt a way you can say that Terry is the reason we've sucked when a) Terry was there for the finals run and b) you can't isolate variables

Let me reiterate the argument:

1) If team a team with players D and J goes to the finals one year
2) The next few years the team with players D and J do terribly
3) We can't question player D
___________
4) Therefore, it was player J all along

but all that argument proves (even without all the other variables that are dropped out of the equation) is that at worst, player J had no effect, and at best the combination of D/J is necessary but not sufficient for success.

Its a 5-man game and although Terry's shooting often drops off in the playoffs, there are few people who actually pick up their FG% in the playoffs and even fewer 6th men (Dirk is one that does improve his numbers). You trade Terry for Jackson and its much much much more lateral than you would have us believe and it'd cost the team chemistry, leadership, and punchy scoring in the clutch for an overrated SF that is a downgrade on Butler in almost every way.

[EricaLubarsky]

Compare these guys with Caron's numbers

Butler
eFG% of 49.0%
3pt shooting 43%
Pass rating 2.7
reb rating 14.4
block rating 1.2

Prince may be the guy I like most and the most likely guy to come here. He does just about everything we need. He can threaten the three (44% this year), space, work off the ball, and can occasionally drive. He's not a guy that can force penetration but he is a good defender and a solid team player that would work well in our system. He's doing better in every category that I listed than Butler, but is more a 3/4 than a pure 3 like Butler. He's a Detroit favorite but was having a rocky relationship in Detroit. He's expiring too, so it would take something more than Caron's expiring to pick him up. Statistically his best position is the 4/3
eFG% of 50.7% (+1.7%)
3pt shooting 44% (+1%)
Pass rating 3.4 (+0.7)
reb rating 16.3 (+1.9)
block rating 3.0 (+1.8)

AI2 may be a bit young and plays a bit too much with the ball but he can create in the half court and he can provide movement and would require teams to defend both the strong and weak side alley oop. He has no three but he can penetrate well and is an extremely underrated passer and rebounder. I also think the nagging injuries might evaporate when he finds a reason to play. A lot of guys let smaller injuries keep them out of games without a playoff spot to shoot for. Still the injuries may make him a viable option if we can get him cheap enough. He'd also probably come with Brand who is adding a nice 15/9 a night and leading the team in +/-. Brand could come in behind Dirk and push Marion into the starting 3 position while AI2 solidified the 2/3 with Stevenson. That may be a nice talent upgrade but might also cost us some chemistry and the ability to be completely gelled by the playoffs. It'd certainly cost a lot of money and trade resources to get him too. Statistically his best position is the 3/2
eFG% of 47.6% (-1.4%)
3pt shooting 35% (-8%)
Pass rating 8.0 (+5.3)
reb rating 16.7 (+2.3)
block rating 1.4 (+0.2)

Martin does a lot for us offensively and gives us that go-to guy that can create other than Dirk but he's easily bullied and his defense has been atrocious so far. Who knows what he would cost, but he provides little more than the most efficient offense for a small guy of anyone else on this list. His eFG, even in Houston is amazing. Statistically his best position is the 2/3
eFG% of 52.9% (+3.9%)
3pt shooting 42% (-1%)
Pass rating 3.1 (+0.4)
reb rating 9.6 (-4.8)
block rating 0.3 (-0.9)

Jackson is a vet who can be very focused and influential defensively. He'd probably be had cheap. He may fit in quickly with his veteran experience and he brings a lot of what Butler did. He's a much better passer but a downgrade at every other offensive position (although playing with a worse team). Volume shooting and ego may be a concern with him. Statistically his best position is the 3/2
eFG% of 48.2% (-0.8%)
3pt shooting 42% (-7%)
Pass rating 5.9 (+3.2)
reb rating 12.6 (-1.8)
block rating 1.5 (+0.3)

Diaw is a 6'8" PF that has played most of his minutes at the 4/5 this year. He's a little better rebounding and passing and has an amazing eFG% but some worrisome defense and works most effectively when worked into a system. He's floundered to find his role without the ball in Charlotte. He's one of the most unique players out there but that may be the biggest hit against him. We can't afford to retool our offense for him-- we need to find a replacement for Butler in the good thing we have going.Statistically his best position is the 4/5
eFG% of 56.0% (+7%)
3pt shooting 34% (-8%)
Pass rating 4.2 (+1.5)
reb rating 15.6 (+1.2)
block rating 2.0 (+0.8)

Jamison is a 6'9" powerforward who has already had an opportunity to play with/behind Dirk. He's as versatile offensively as any 4 in the league, but his eFG% isnt terribly hot. Admittedly he has a lot of defensive pressure thrown at him. His defense is HIGHLY suspect and he would be eaten alive at the 3 by a lot of the 3s in the league. His only outstanding fact is that he's a great rebounder, but from the 4 position. He fits none of our needs and I think we'd find him totally unable to play the 3, and a defensive sieve that could be exploited even when the rest of the team was clamping down. Statistically his best position is the 4/3
eFG% of 47.5% (+1.5%)
3pt shooting 34% (-9%)
Pass rating 1.6 (-1.1)
reb rating 21.8 (+7.4)
block rating 2.1 (+0.9)

Mayo is a 6'4" combo guard that has fallen from favor in Memphis. He's young which may be both a benefit and a knock on him. He may have a hard time adjusting to the new team with only 2 years of experience before this one, all of which in Memphis' system. He works well off the ball, and can penetrate. His 3pt shooting hasnt matured yet but still spreads the floor and needs to be defended there. His numbers are a downgrade in every category listed, but he may be a good replacement for Butler with the current situation if we can get him cheap from Memphis. His size may push the 6'5" Stevenson to the 3 spot and he could hypothetically play the PG on occasion, but probably wouldnt be ready to take over this season. Statistically his best position is the 2/1
eFG% of 48.9% (-0.1%)
3pt shooting 38% (-5%)
Pass rating 1.8 (-0.9)
reb rating 9.3 (-5.1)
block rating 1.8 (+0.6)

Wallace is a 6'7" beast in many respects and a very Marion-esque player. He can D it up, play off the ball well, block shots and hangs with Marion and the 7' Dirk in rebounding (Marion 23.7, Dirk 21.1). He's also beastly around the rim where he can perform uncanny acts of athleticism on both ends of the floor. He'd easily make our 3/4/5 the roughest in the league in rebounding/defense/shot blocking. His block rating is 5.1 which is 4 times better than that of Butler and more than twice that of every other person on the list (as well as Marion) and almost on par with chandler's 6.3 rating. His offense is limited and has few isolation moves (unlike Marion), and his three point shooting is on that cusp of even needing to be defended, which might allow teams to sink into the lane and let him shoot, but his overall package is very strong. He is also a very real threat to throw down alley oops on both the strong and weak side, which has helped keep defenses honest for Dirk/Terry et al. He may be Charlotte's franchise player though and who knows what it would cost to get him. Statistically his best position is the 3/4
eFG% of 45.6% (-3.4%)
3pt shooting 35% (-8%)
Pass rating 2.3 (-0.4)
reb rating 22.0 (+7.6)
block rating 5.1 (3.9)


Repost

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Thanks!

No offense but I'm not trying to help your argument or hurt anyone else's argument. Just saying... Dude is just not reliable.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

dont like Jamison on this team one bit because he provides so very little and is so bad defensively, but Battier is a pure winner and Martin could really tear it up when Dirk is resting or in a double

And Roddy and an expiring for Battier, Martin and Buddinger? Not gonna happen.

Jamison, geez, the only good thinig is his high salary, Cuban won't take him on given he's going to get no more than 10 a night here behind Dirk. Though I'm sure RC will try to plug both in to get those minutes out of Jamison, would be a ugly front line defensively.

[ribosoma]

As much as I would hate to see the two-man game between Jet and Dirk go, I think the defensive presence of Captain Jack and his intensity would fit well on this team. That said, I would want another move to pick up a true 3 included in the mix in order for me to feel comfortable about it.

I would love to see Harris back here, but that depends on what you have to give up to get him. His ability to get to the hole and the fact that he has matured in NJ and now seems to get some of the calls he didn't previously makes him a difference-maker in my opinion. I would take a deal for Harris over a deal for SJax any day. But again, the 3 position has to be addressed.

If the Mavs could swing deals for Crash and Harris (somehow), that would catapult them back into true contender status. As much as Butler will be missed, he was asked to do things that he wasn't really equipped to do. If he was the third option on a team and he was playing solely at the 3, I would say that team would be incredibly dangerous. I hope that he considers coming back here next year, but I have no idea about what that will take salary-wise.

[BGMaverick9]

For those who care, if the timing is right...today is the deadline to use Humphries trade exception.

I believe the Mavericks still have about 8 million dollars of exceptions spread across three former players: Ross, Carroll and Najera

[EricaLubarsky]

Mavericks Exceptions

Trade exceptions (not combinable)
3.9mil from Hump (expires 1/11/11-- today)
4.3mil from Carroll (expires 7/13/11)
3.0mil from Nakera (expires 7/13/11)

signing exceptions (only for signing players)
5.77mil from the MLE