Kings vs. Mavs Gameday Thread (11/02/04)

[LRB]

GMC I agree that Dirk was needed last night. However, I would rather seen him log all 43 minutes or at least 41+ minutes at the PF spot. As it turned out, Dirk played about 13 minutes at center. That's just way too much IMO for a league wide top 3 PF on a team overflowing with centers.

[sike]

I agree in principle, but I dont have a huge problem with Dirk playing C minutes if its Miller hes guarding...

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: sike
I agree in principle, but I dont have a huge problem with Dirk playing C minutes if its Miller hes guarding...

That is key alien.... I don't like Dirk playing Center either. But if it's not a matchup problem, it's not going to hurt us like it did last year. So I would assume we will see his PT at the 5 go up and down depending on the opponent and the matchups.

[LRB]

I disagree guys. I don't care who the opponent is, I don't want to see Dirk logging lots of minutes at the 5. The reason why is that makes Dirk the shot blocker and last line of defense. It's not so much his player as it is needing to be the guy who has responsibility for challenging shots on penetration. And with Henderson's abysmal vertical and lack of height, I sure as hell don't want to see him doing it either when we have 4 active centers who are all great to good shot blockers.

[dirno2000]

Dirk's a pretty good shot blocker and playing him 10 minutes at center against the Kings isn't a big deal. Especially when you consider how well Henderson was playing. I felt more comfortable with him last night than Benga or Bradley. It all depends on the matchup. On the other end, the Kings had to defend Dirk with Brad Miller or Webber, a win-win.

[grndmstr_c]

LRB, I certainly wish Nellie had at least tried bringing in Bradley a little more or Booth at C alongside Dirk, but to be fair, the Mavs were +6 during Dirk's 13 minutes at the 5, so I just don't see that there's much justification for the second guessing on this occasion.

[LRB]

And yet the Kings made a run to make it close. Maybe if we had Bradley or Booth in we would have held them off better and been able to rest Dirk more. We won't know for sure one way or the other. However in the long run, it will wear Dirk down more having to play 10+ minutes at Center on a regular basis. Also it just doesn't play to our strengths. My criticism is not on this game in particular, but on an unhealthy trend that Nellie seems to be carrying over from last year. Let's play Dirk and Henderson strickly at PF and let Damp, Bradley, Booth, and Benga divide up the center minutes. Let's see how Nellie plays it against the hornets. If Dirk logs more than 5 minutes at the center spot I'll be more than a little pissed at Nellie.

[FilthyFinMavs]

I don't mind Henderson at the 5 and Dirk at the 4 for minimal minutes. That's fine with me but we are atleast 4 deep at the center position. I don't blame Nellie for giving Henderson minutes because he deserved them. He played his ass off but would it hurt to get a legit 5 in there for a couple of minutes? Last nite may be an exception with Miller and Ostertag playing the 5 for the Kings but I don't want to see this same mistake against bigger teams. I don't want to see Dirk facing up against Maglore tonite.

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

It was all a matchup thing. We shouldn't see that type of thing tonight.

Personally, I don't mind Dirk at the 5 alongside Booth, Benga or Henderson at the 4 when it's a good matchup, ie Miller. I don't want to see Dirk at the 5 against a more physical banger-type center.

[LRB]

I hate altering our roster to "matchup" with the other team. I want to see a regular rotation and see a conventional lineup for 45+ minutes per game. With 5 centers on our roster we need to find a way to play with one of them in the game all the time. Nellie's "Matchup" coaching is synomous with loserball or underdogball. This team has the talent where we don't have to do that anymore and that it's in our best interests long term not to do that.

[sike]

actually, from what I saw, Dirk, though guarding a center, was guarding a center who plays like a power foward...allowing Dirk to play more of PF Styel of D...Hendu was plugging himself in the middle...

I would rather have Damp or Shawn or Hendu or Booth or DJ in the middle, but I don't care if Dirk is playing D in the situation he found himself in last night.

[grndmstr_c]

And yet the Kings made a run to make it close.

Their runs didn't occur when Dirk was at the 5. There were only two lineups including Dirk that had a negative +/- last night: 1) Devin/Quis/Fin/Dirk/Damp (-7 in just over 6 minutes), and 2) JT, Quis, Fin, Hendu, Dirk (-2 in a little over 2 and a half minutes).

[LRB]

Sike it's not about the man that Dirk is guarding, it's about being the last line of defense and primary shot blocker for the entire team on the floor. I'll grant that Miller is not an imposing postup center. However having Dirk as the only legit interior shotblocker on the floor for heavy minutes is not good. Dirk does much better as a secondary shot blocker. And I sure as hell don't want ground bound Henderson being the primary shot blocker and last line of defense. We have 4 very good shot blocking centers. We should use them for 45+ minutes per night at center regardless of the matchups. To do otherwise is playing that small ball crap that Nellie loves. This may be an unrealist expecation considering how Nellie hates big men (i.e. centers), but this team needs to learn to play with them if we want a championship and just don't have a goal of making the playoffs. If Nellie can't figure out how to coach and play centers, then Nellie needs to step down and let someone else coach.

[sike]

well, as I contended before...Henderson was actually playing much more of a center while he and Dirk were on the court together...so Henderson was actually their last ling line of defense...but I can understand why you would want to use a center, LRB, I would too preferably...but last night, it was fine. As far as Dirk being the only man on the floor at the time who is likely to get blocks, Henderson got a pretty awesome stuff last night.

[V2M]

I agree with LRB on this. When you got 4 Centers who could all give you decent minutes, there's no need to play Dirk at 5. It not only could tire him out faster but also makes him play out of position and thus more foul-prone. We need his offense at #4 more than his defense at #5.

Hendu played OK for this game but what is it that he could give in 10 minutes that a Booth, Bradley or DJ can't give you. Also come playoff time, we need all the big guys to have played enough minutes during the season to be confident and in game shape.

Of course, yesterday's was one game and it's baseless to imagine that's how all games would be. But it's certainly worth reminding Nellie that Dirk can't give us 43 productive minutes on the offense as well defense, for 82 games, especially if 10-15 of those are at #5.

[LRB]

Hendu played OK for this game but what is it that he could give in 10 minutes that a Booth, Bradley or DJ can't give you. Also come playoff time, we need all the big guys to have played enough minutes during the season to be confident and in game shape.

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. We also need to get the rest of the team used to playing with the big guys so we don't have to try and Mesh in the playoffs.

Sike, I know you can argue that Hendu was playing center. But I don't want a 6'9" center who only can slightly outjump me playing any regular minutes at center when when have 4 6'11" or taller centers who are very good shot blockers picking splinter out of their behinds sitting on the bench.

This game we may have done OK. We might have several games during the season where we will do OK. Hell we won 52 games last year hardly ever playing a center. However if we want to win a championship we need to play the centers. Not for the wins now but for the wins in late April, May, and June. I've run red lights and stop signs before by accident without looking. Fortunately I haven't been hurt. That doesn't make it a smart thing to do on purpose.

[EricaLubarsky]

Henderson was playing well and Webber was killing us. If Dirk was in at the 4, then he'd have to guard the 3 or 5 since he already proved that he couldn't guard his man at the 4. Who guards Dirk is really of no importance to us.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Isn't this just a bit much for one game? I mean if we would've played the Hornets last nite I would be just as upset as some of you going into the season without playing a backup center but I really think Nellie wanted to see what he had in Henderson and what better team than the "Queens"? Henderson past my expectations already. I've seen him play before and I knew what he was capable of but I thought that was all behind him with his history of injuries. What Henderson brings that Booth and Bradley don't is he is a true definition of a banger. He'll bang inside on both sides of the ball. Bradley and Booth like to stay mid range on the offensive side of the ball. Benga is another story. From what I heard from Nellie's mouth he's the next best thing but he didn't even see a minute on the floor last night.

[LRB]

If it was just one game, that would be one thing. But this is a strong trend that Nellie has had for over a year and a half now. And it could be argued that it has lasted much longer.

Sure if Nellie breaks it this year and starts playing a starting and backup center most of the minutes it will be all right. However, the 1st game out of the box, Nellie reverted to his old bad habits. We got a win, but we got lots of wins with Nellie before. We've just never gotten a championship with Nellie nor has any other team. IMO Nellie needs to learn to use the center talent that we have an abundance of or we won't have much of a shot at a trophy as long as Nellie is coach.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: LRB
If it was just one game, that would be one thing. But this is a strong trend that Nellie has had for over a year and a half now. And it could be argued that it has lasted much longer.

Sure if Nellie breaks it this year and starts playing a starting and backup center most of the minutes it will be all right. However, the 1st game out of the box, Nellie reverted to his old bad habits. We got a win, but we got lots of wins with Nellie before. We've just never gotten a championship with Nellie nor has any other team. IMO Nellie needs to learn to use the center talent that we have an abundance of or we won't have much of a shot at a trophy as long as Nellie is coach.

I mean you've got to remember though that Damp did start for us yesterday and played some minutes. That's something Nellie has done at times but never consistently. I'll start getting worried when I see Damp getting 10 minutes a game. That's when I will say that the old Nellie is back. To me it's not that the Mavs need a center out there on the floor just a big man who is just that. Doesn't shoot mid range jumpers and isn't a liability on defense. I'm not saying Booth or Bradley are those things but Henderson is a nicely sized player when you compare him to what the Kings were offering inside. I'll have to see tonight if I have a problem with Nellie's decision on not playing a real center but I have a strong feeling that we will see Benga, Bradley and Booth get over 15 minutes tonight. I still get the impression that Nellie is still evaluating the team and last night he wanted to see what Stack, Terry and Henderson had. I think it's the centers turn tonight.

[LRB]

You're right FFM in that Nellie did start and play Damp for 34 minutes last night. Something that Nellie rarely did in the past unless injuries forced it. So I'll give Nellie props for that. I still think that we need to incorporate our backup centers and their shot blocking on a regular basis to make a legit push at a championship. Hopefully you'll be right and we'll see that tonight.

[kingrex]

Originally posted by: LRB
What better motivation for Harris than to work your @$$ off to keep your starting spot knowing that you have a talented veteran breathing down your neck for more minutes? As for Terry, what better motivation to play hard than to get more minutes and possibly play your way into starting.

The major thing that a coach could do to demotivate players is not to start the one playing the best for senority reasons. I disagree with Nellie on a lot of things, but the best player should start IMO.

I suppose you have a point.

As long as both guys can accept their roles on this team and continue to improve, then I could really care less what is motivating them.

Besides it was just a fairly minor point on my list of three.

[V2M]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

I mean you've got to remember though that Damp did start for us yesterday and played some minutes. That's something Nellie has done at times but never consistently. I'll start getting worried when I see Damp getting 10 minutes a game. That's when I will say that the old Nellie is back. To me it's not that the Mavs need a center out there on the floor just a big man who is just that. Doesn't shoot mid range jumpers and isn't a liability on defense. I'm not saying Booth or Bradley are those things but Henderson is a nicely sized player when you compare him to what the Kings were offering inside. I'll have to see tonight if I have a problem with Nellie's decision on not playing a real center but I have a strong feeling that we will see Benga, Bradley and Booth get over 15 minutes tonight. I still get the impression that Nellie is still evaluating the team and last night he wanted to see what Stack, Terry and Henderson had. I think it's the centers turn tonight.

You can't give him credit for playing Damp some minutes. He wouldn't last a month with Cuban if he doesn't start and play Damp some decent minutes, don't you think?!

I'd guess, Nellie last night was all about winning the game and not about testing the lineups, etc. He announced that DJ is the backup to Damp but he didn't have the guts to try an undrafted rookie out in an all important season-opener against a key opponent. I expect him to start playing DJ slowly but surely over the next few games. Booth & Bradley may just be situational backups or injury backups in Nellie's mind.

Over the next month or so, I expect to see the following lineups:

Damp/DJ
Dirk/Hendu
JHo/Stack
Fin/Quis
Harris/JeT

With Bradley & Booth as situational backups at 5 and 4.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Henderson was playing well and Webber was killing us. If Dirk was in at the 4, then he'd have to guard the 3 or 5 since he already proved that he couldn't guard his man at the 4. Who guards Dirk is really of no importance to us.

Nellie mentioned that he thought Dirk struggled a bit defensively late because he logged too many minutes.

[kingrex]

Originally posted by: V2M

You can't give him credit for playing Damp some minutes. He wouldn't last a month with Cuban if he doesn't start and play Damp some decent minutes, don't you think?!

I'd guess, Nellie last night was all about winning the game and not about testing the lineups, etc. He announced that DJ is the backup to Damp but he didn't have the guts to try an undrafted rookie out in an all important season-opener against a key opponent. I expect him to start playing DJ slowly but surely over the next few games. Booth & Bradley may just be situational backups or injury backups in Nellie's mind.

Over the next month or so, I expect to see the following lineups:

Damp/DJ
Dirk/Hendu
JHo/Stack
Fin/Quis
Harris/JeT

With Bradley & Booth as situational backups at 5 and 4.

What is disconcerting, is that Nellie was saying the same thing about Fortson. In that, he said Fortson is this great rebounder, then he'd never utilize him because he supposedly never got the offense.

And last night, he said the Bradley was backing up Dampier because MBenga doesn't quite know the offense. I hope this time he really does want to use Mbenga instead of just paying it lip service.

We'll see as the season progresses.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: V2M



You can't give him credit for playing Damp some minutes. He wouldn't last a month with Cuban if he doesn't start and play Damp some decent minutes, don't you think?!

I'd guess, Nellie last night was all about winning the game and not about testing the lineups, etc. He announced that DJ is the backup to Damp but he didn't have the guts to try an undrafted rookie out in an all important season-opener against a key opponent. I expect him to start playing DJ slowly but surely over the next few games. Booth & Bradley may just be situational backups or injury backups in Nellie's mind.

Over the next month or so, I expect to see the following lineups:

Damp/DJ
Dirk/Hendu
JHo/Stack
Fin/Quis
Harris/JeT

With Bradley & Booth as situational backups at 5 and 4.

I think Cubes would can Nellie if he played Damp like he did Fortson and Bradley last year. However I think Cubes will Can Nellie if he trys playing Hendu and Dirk as his backups to Damp while Booth, Bradley, and Benga cool their heels on the bench. What really sucks is in Bradley we have one of the best shot blockers in the NBA and Nellie refuses to use him except for token minutes. I just don't see Nellie committing to playing the personnel for 45+ minutes per game that will allow us to be a balanced defensive team over the course of the season. It's too much of a temptation for Nellie to go small. I do hope that I'm wrong.

But as to your question about Cubes firing Nellie, I think Nellie almost wants to get fired. Look to see Nellie going more and more back to his small ball ways as the season wears on.

[SeriousSummer]

Sacramento was mostly playing without a center last night--Miller plays like a power forward. Bradley or MBenga would be very poor match ups against either Miller or Webber.

I don't understand why Booth couldn't play some minutes, though. But Henderson did make himself hard to take off the floor

[Cybertx]

that's what i brought it up dirk was tired in the 4th you could see that .

I know one game, queens, etc.

But you have 4 damn centers and 2 PF for the seasson why are you risking your PF, we know about dirk injurie(ankles) it will never go away and the mos rested the less danger, hendu was hurt no need to hurt him again , i agree close 4th quarter you need dirk but what about the rest of the game get mbenja and bradley in.

I'm afraid that nellie will use the small lineup more than we tought.

[Windmill360]

[Dirkfanatic]

HATER