More Chandler Decision Discussion can be found here. - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

BGMaverick9 · 08-10-2012, 03:37 PM

The plan, to me, was to bridge the gap as best as possible to get to this summer. Clean the slate and make sure the cap/tax implications weren't going to let them get in the way they wanted to do business. Cuban didn't know how the CBA would work exactly at the time, but he had a pretty fair idea that they'd be screwed if they tried to operate the same was as they did right through the the new period of the new CBA.

If they're over the cap, they're not going to be able to have their full arsenal of weapons to work with to build their team to be competitive. I'm pretty sure their moves leading up to last summer and this season line up with that action plan. Cuban's already said they found players that had deals that led perfectly with that plan. He also said if Chandler had an extra year left on his deal when he was acquired from Charlotte that it was really going to be the concept in trade in serious doubt.

They did exactly want they wanted to do, they even got to max out their plan to its fullest. That being said, they didn't let that change their course of action with their plan. They took their chance and failed, but they still had themselves in a spot where they could be opportunistic and field a team that could be built with advantages in the current system, play for now and allow themselves ways to work for the future.

Underdog · 08-10-2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

So they throw in roddy/dojo.

Nope - there is no deal for Collison without Indy's perception of Mahinmi, which was totally based off of his extended role/playtime this last season.

You can talk about making other deals, but even those would have been limited by our inflated payroll and lack of tradeable assets.

nowhereman · 08-10-2012, 03:40 PM

It all comes full circle:

Let go of Nash for cap space
Use cap space to sign Dampier
Use Dampier's contract to get Tyson
Trade Tyson for a trade exception, hope for Dwight
Send trade exception to L.A. for Odom
Watch L.A. use trade exception to sign Nash
Watch L.A. trade for Dwight

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

You're tossing the word "unknowable" around, then acting like the Mavs KNEW that the reigning 6th Man of the Year was going to be a complete bust when he came to Dallas?? Our front office put together a damn good team on paper while still maintaining flexibility to go after Deron and Dwight - the fact that none of that panned out was completely unknowable... Especially the part about Odom - he should've at least helped to mitigate the loss of Tyson Chandler.

They didn't know about odom before they let tyson go. If they had traded for Odom then I think your opinion makes a little more sense. Odom dropped into their lap, had the expiring contract they wanted so they took it. Completely fortuitous, not planned.

It's all unknowable to some extent. It's unknowable that the team was just flat out lucky in '11, it's unknowable that the team wouldn't have been just as competitive last year if they knew they were all together, it's unknowable what Deron would have done if Tyson was here.

What IS knowable is that the mavs had the best team in basketball, the best center that I can think of next to dirk and they decided to roll the dice. Some folks say that was really smart, I think it was really dumb. Who is right is also unknowable.

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Nope - there is no deal for Collison without Indy's perception of Mahinmi, which was totally based off of his extended role/playtime this last season.

You can talk about making other deals, but even those would have been limited by our inflated payroll and lack of tradeable assets.

I just do not agree, it is too static. IF the mavs had not decided to take it down to the nub then many more situations would have been in play. Jkiddo snt, jet snt, etc., etc.

DevinHarriswillstart · 08-10-2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

You're tossing the word "unknowable" around, then acting like the Mavs KNEW that the reigning 6th Man of the Year was going to be a complete bust when he came to Dallas?? Our front office put together a damn good team on paper while still maintaining flexibility to go after Deron and Dwight - the fact that none of that panned out was completely unknowable... Especially the part about Odom - he should've at least helped to mitigate the loss of Tyson Chandler.

Exactly. Dude can't have it both ways with the "unknowable." Unlucky is more of the word I would use...unlucky with Odom, unlucky about Joe Johnston, and unlucky that Orlando is now having a mad hatter tea party. But why cry for the rest of the summer? Look at what went right. Lucky Kaman is here for one year, 8 million. Luck Mayo turned down bigger offers to play for Rick. Lucky Indiana overvalued Mahinmi to get Collison and Jones. Lucky to get Brand for 2.1 mil. Lucky that there was a plan B...at all. It may not be exciting like landing Williams, but it certainly looks very smart. Smart is often the best route to take.

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

You're tossing the word "unknowable" around, then acting like the Mavs KNEW that the reigning 6th Man of the Year was going to be a complete bust when he came to Dallas?? Our front office put together a damn good team on paper while still maintaining flexibility to go after Deron and Dwight - the fact that none of that panned out was completely unknowable... Especially the part about Odom - he should've at least helped to mitigate the loss of Tyson Chandler.

You and I competely disagree about odom. He could not come close to replacing what a mobile center can bring. He also played the same position as the dirkster, I thought it ill-fitting from the get go.

Nellie would have loved the move however.

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Exactly. Dude can't have it both ways with the "unknowable." Unlucky is more of the word I would use...unlucky with Odom, unlucky about Joe Johnston, and unlucky that Orlando is now having a mad hatter tea party. But why cry for the rest of the summer? Look at what went right. Lucky Kaman is here for one year, 8 million. Luck Mayo turned down bigger offers to play for Rick. Lucky Indiana overvalued Mahinmi to get Collison and Jones. Lucky to get Brand for 2.1 mil. Lucky that there was a plan B...at all. It may not be exciting like landing Williams, but it certainly looks very smart. Smart is often the best route to take.

That is your opinion and fine. I think it smarter to ride a hot stock when it's hot and not sell it "thinking" it might quit on you.

This team is not playing for a championship...probably won't ever in dirk's career. Okay by you, that's smart.

Underdog · 08-10-2012, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

They didn't know about odom before they let tyson go. If they had traded for Odom then I think your opinion makes a little more sense. Odom dropped into their lap, had the expiring contract they wanted so they took it. Completely fortuitous, not planned.

The flexibilty needed to take advantage of that situation was 100% planned. The front office knew that the new CBA would allow for certain opportunities to arise, and when they did, the Mavs would be poised to strike.

DevinHarriswillstart · 08-10-2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

This team is not playing for a championship...probably won't ever in dirk's career. Okay by you, that's smart.

Speaking of unknowable in August...that statement right there. If only one of Collison, Mayo, Kaman, Roddy, whoever becomes a star, then you're right back in the thick if things with a great trade asset to boot. Mayo probably has the best chance of having that kind of year.

ibivibiv · 08-10-2012, 04:24 PM

Motion to stop using the word/letters CBA as supporting evidence until a few years from now. Apparently we are the only team who cares about it this year. Just about everyone else of consequence is still spending like there is no tomorrow. I am curious to see if it really ends up hurting those teams or if this new CBA just further limited who can overspend to those mega teams that can afford the super tax and will attract big names always.

purplefrog · 08-10-2012, 04:26 PM

I believe that both the path taken by the FO and an alternative where they keep the nucleus of the Championship team are defensible and logical. Which way you jump is based on opinion and speculation. My preference would have been to keep Tyson, JJ, JKidd and JET and let them ride out the remainder of Dirk's career. However, I can't strongly argue with Donnie and Cubes approach to reloading and keeping financial flexibility. It is downright unbelievable they were able to put together this quality roster with one year deals. Absolutely remarkable and I gave the MBT no chance of doing this. So, I tip my hat to the FO even though in my heart I wish the Championship nucleus was still here in Dallas. I enjoyed rooting for that team, I enjoyed the chemistry and the magic they brought to the court.

LonghornDub · 08-10-2012, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplefrog

I enjoyed rooting for that team, I enjoyed the chemistry and the magic they brought to the court.

Well, hey, at least this route preserves that magic and mystique forever.

BGMaverick9 · 08-10-2012, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibivibiv

Motion to stop using the word/letters CBA as supporting evidence until a few years from now. Apparently we are the only team who cares about it this year. Just about everyone else of consequence is still spending like there is no tomorrow. I am curious to see if it really ends up hurting those teams or if this new CBA just further limited who can overspend to those mega teams that can afford the super tax and will attract big names always.

Specific teams such as the Knicks and Bulls would disagree with your notion that the Mavericks are the only team who cares.

Kidd Karma · 08-10-2012, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibivibiv

Motion to stop using the word/letters CBA as supporting evidence until a few years from now. Apparently we are the only team who cares about it this year. Just about everyone else of consequence is still spending like there is no tomorrow. I am curious to see if it really ends up hurting those teams or if this new CBA just further limited who can overspend to those mega teams that can afford the super tax and will attract big names always.

True other teams are locking themselves up 3 seasons from now(Knicks with Kidd and Camby), around when the stringent taxes hit as well as the exceptions start to disappear if over the lux tax. The sign and trade option also disappears when over this threshold. Mavs are just waiting to buy low when the time comes. I mean we got an OJ Mayo dropped into our laps when 4-24 were tossed around his camp. Who knows what happens when teams start to get handicapped because of the lux tax rules. Seems to me Cuban's more afraid of the handicaps that limit player movement, loss of MLE, loss of sign and trades, than he is of the lux tax.

ibivibiv · 08-10-2012, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Specific teams such as the Knicks and Bulls would disagree with your notion that the Mavericks are the only team who cares.

Huh, I missed the headlines saying those 2 teams were only signing one year deals to "keep their powder dry". I think NY passing on Lin would have happened regardless of what CBA was in place. That deal Houston threw at him was crazy considering no one has seen Lin play in a playoff series yet.

BGMaverick9 · 08-10-2012, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibivibiv

Huh, I missed the headlines saying those 2 teams were only signing one year deals to "keep their powder dry". I think NY passing on Lin would have happened regardless of what CBA was in place. That deal Houston threw at him was crazy considering no one has seen Lin play in a playoff series yet.

That's not what you originally said.

ibivibiv · 08-10-2012, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

That's not what you originally said.

Fair enough, but it's related in my view. All we have seen is hyper conservative 1 year deals and some clever bargain shopping. I think it is fair to say that Cuban/Nellie et al may have jumped the gun in their fear of this new CBA. I mean unless they are the lone geniuses in the league and these other teams are all just being stupid crazy. I am a big fan of looking at a large sample set and so far, it looks like we are a bit of an outlier in this "fear the new CBA" strategy. I think what Cuban has done for the team overall throughout the years has been awesome and wouldn't trade him for any other owner, but honestly don't you think he might have overestimated the league's owners initial reaction to this new CBA? I get the impression our FO thought no one would be spending this year. It looks like that is not the case just yet.

Thespiralgoeson · 08-10-2012, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Your unprovable opinion. With respect to the "miracle" I disagree totally with. Who can know what players may have liked to hitch their wagon up to the Mavs if they truly trying to win instead of gutting the team. It's unknowable.

Isn't this entire discussion completely hypothetical and therefore speculative and "unprovable?" Let's not act like I'm the only one speculating here. For nearly a year now all I've heard from most Mavs fans is constant bitching about how horribly stupid it was to let Tyson Chandler go... how this team would have steamrolled through the competition right back to the finals... how we were practically entitled to a repeat.

Everything in sports is speculation and outright guessing. The Mavs took a series of calculated risks. Those risks didn't pay off (at least not in the short run) and that sucks. But I still maintain that the Mavs had almost nothing to lose in trying.

Quote:

But we do know where we are right now. A mediocre team that will maybe make 7th and get beat in the first round, probably. Then do it all over again. SSDD

And with Chandler we'd be in the exact same boat. Maybe we're the 5th seed instead of the 7th seed. But there I go speculating again...

Thespiralgoeson · 08-10-2012, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Spiral, you sure think highly of your opinions..

And you surely love being snide and condescending. The world keeps spinning.

Thespiralgoeson · 08-10-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

You're tossing the word "unknowable" around, then acting like the Mavs KNEW that the reigning 6th Man of the Year was going to be a complete bust when he came to Dallas?? Our front office put together a damn good team on paper while still maintaining flexibility to go after Deron and Dwight - the fact that none of that panned out was completely unknowable... Especially the part about Odom - he should've at least helped to mitigate the loss of Tyson Chandler.

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Underdog again."

BGMaverick9 · 08-10-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibivibiv

Fair enough, but it's related in my view. All we have seen is hyper conservative 1 year deals and some clever bargain shopping. I think it is fair to say that Cuban/Nellie et al may have jumped the gun in their fear of this new CBA. I mean unless they are the lone geniuses in the league and these other teams are all just being stupid crazy. I am a big fan of looking at a large sample set and so far, it looks like we are a bit of an outlier in this "fear the new CBA" strategy. I think what Cuban has done for the team overall throughout the years has been awesome and wouldn't trade him for any other owner, but honestly don't you think he might have overestimated the league's owners initial reaction to this new CBA? I get the impression our FO thought no one would be spending this year. It looks like that is not the case just yet.

Initial reaction? Possibly, but that doesn't change the fact he could be right in the big picture. It's not a situation right now where he has to be right or wrong. The rules are going to see another set of changes next summer. Something along the lines of Nash going to the Lakers won't be able to happen since the Lakers are a specific taxpaying team. Seems like the Lakers are willing to bite the bullet on the tax hit, but they can only really max out on the system, likely due to age, for 1-2 years. They'll have to strike while they can.

If this year's team is successful and shows the makings of a team that can build into something with major substance, Cuban can go back to his ways since they sacrificed to get to now.

While there might not have been teams that scaled back on the signings, there were still teams that threw out dumb money. That's going to come back and bite them eventually. It's just one of those things that take time to develop, which no one wants to hear.

EricaLubarsky · 08-10-2012, 07:54 PM

Yeah, y'know 'cuz Chandler/Dirk/Marion/??/Barea would not only win a championship against the Heat, Lakers and Thunder but it would also have tons of flexibility.

I'd much rather be a 4th seed with financial flexibility and hopes for the future than being in cap hell and still being a 4th seed.

MavsFTR · 08-10-2012, 10:24 PM

Life is too uncertain to have regrets. For all we know this may have been the best thing that ever happened to us.

MavsFTR · 08-10-2012, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

It all comes full circle:

Let go of Nash for cap space
Use cap space to sign Dampier
Use Dampier's contract to get Tyson
Trade Tyson for a trade exception, hope for Dwight
Send trade exception to L.A. for Odom
Watch L.A. use trade exception to sign Nash
Watch L.A. trade for Dwight

Cuban should've foreseen this!

nowhereman · 08-10-2012, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibivibiv

Motion to stop using the word/letters CBA as supporting evidence until a few years from now. Apparently we are the only team who cares about it this year. Just about everyone else of consequence is still spending like there is no tomorrow. I am curious to see if it really ends up hurting those teams or if this new CBA just further limited who can overspend to those mega teams that can afford the super tax and will attract big names always.

Second.

chumdawg · 08-11-2012, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibivibiv

Motion to stop using the word/letters CBA as supporting evidence until a few years from now. Apparently we are the only team who cares about it this year. Just about everyone else of consequence is still spending like there is no tomorrow. I am curious to see if it really ends up hurting those teams or if this new CBA just further limited who can overspend to those mega teams that can afford the super tax and will attract big names always.

You know, you make an interesting point. Our own Mavs, among others, have proven how quickly you can get out of "cap hell" if you want to. It's not like these big-spending teams are ceding their flexibility forever. It's more like they are pushing their chips in.

LonghornDub · 08-11-2012, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibivibiv

That deal Houston threw at him was crazy considering no one has seen Lin play in a playoff series yet.

The new CBA is what allowed Houston to throw that deal at him......

chumdawg · 08-11-2012, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

The new CBA is what allowed Houston to throw that deal at him......

It's not what allowed them to offer that deal. It's what gave that deal teeth.

LonghornDub · 08-11-2012, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It's not what allowed them to offer that deal. It's what gave that deal teeth.

What I mean is, Houston would never have offered that deal under the old CBA. The whole point of the backloading, in this context, was to hamper the Knicks in the 3rd and 4th years of the deal when the new CBA tax penalties really kick in.

So yes, "gave the deal teeth" may be more accurate. But even still, Houston never does it under the old CBA, so my point stands.

chumdawg · 08-11-2012, 02:00 PM

Why wouldn't they do it under the old CBA?

LonghornDub · 08-11-2012, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Why wouldn't they do it under the old CBA?

..for the reason I just stated.

chumdawg · 08-11-2012, 02:28 PM

I'm not talking about the backloading. I'm talking about the total dollars. Or at least, that's what ibivibiv was talking about. And in terms of the total dollars, if they would do it under this CBA then I see no reason why they wouldn't do it under the old one. What, are you working on an assumption that they don't think they will ultimately have to pay the backloaded years?

howdoesmydirktaste · 08-11-2012, 02:49 PM

Dwight was never going to come here. I don't think Dwight Howard or Deron Williams will ever have a playoff run in them like Dirk did in 2011. With that said, whether we got them or not would have never topped sitting back and enjoying what Dirk did in 2011. So we didn't get them. Oh well, neither did 30 other teams.

Cuban has made some mistakes, but most of the other owners in the NBA have made bigger mistakes.
2011 taught me that no front office, sports writer or jackass on a forum really knows 100% what they're talking about.

The NBA wants the Lakers to be good. They have never, and will never, care about the Mavericks.

oilfieldtrash · 08-11-2012, 04:54 PM

20 years from now we'll be telling stories to the youngsters about the mythical Chandler. He was 8 foot talk with legs like tree trunks and how he carried the Mavs to the ring. And how with him alone that meant at least 3 rings.

dude1394 · 08-11-2012, 08:11 PM

And could shoot fire from his arse!

JerryWest_44 · 08-12-2012, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

It all comes full circle:

Let go of Nash for cap space
Use cap space to sign Dampier
Use Dampier's contract to get Tyson
Trade Tyson for a trade exception, hope for Dwight
Send trade exception to L.A. for Odom
Watch L.A. use trade exception to sign Nash
Watch L.A. trade for Dwight

I just don't understand why Cuban didn't decide to go for a back to back championship run. Cuban's business side got the best of him IMHO.

EricaLubarsky · 08-12-2012, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryWest_44

I just don't understand why Cuban didn't decide to go for a back to back championship run. Cuban's business side got the best of him IMHO.

...because last year's totally gassed, out-of-shape and one-year-older squad would have totally won a second championship against the improved Heat and Thunder.

..and because its totally worth screwing the financial pooch for the next 3-4 years while we fade into mediocrity.

We flame out in the first/second round last year, this forum would be nothing but depressing. "What do we do next year with only Chandler/marion/Dirk/JJB on the roster, zero trade assets and no cap space?" What do we do when Dirk is gone or a shell of himself and Chandler is taking up a quarter of our capspace (15mill or so)

|_Jeff_| · 08-12-2012, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsFTR

How are all of you idiots basing the decision to not resign our free agents on the events that happened a year later? When Cuban chose not to resign, both Deron and Dwight were on the table. Who could have foreseen the circus that would happen?

Who could have foreseen it? About 1/3 of the fanbase and we posted our opinions about it a priori. Just because you misjudged the situation doesn't mean the rest of us did. Maybe your question should be "How did so many others foresee this but I couldn't?"

Murphy3 · 08-12-2012, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

...because last year's totally gassed, out-of-shape and one-year-older squad would have totally won a second championship against the improved Heat and Thunder.

..and because its totally worth screwing the financial pooch for the next 3-4 years while we fade into mediocrity.

We flame out in the first/second round last year, this forum would be nothing but depressing. "What do we do next year with only Chandler/marion/Dirk/JJB on the roster, zero trade assets and no cap space?" What do we do when Dirk is gone or a shell of himself and Chandler is taking up a quarter of our capspace (15mill or so)

Because a flame out was obviously a guarantee. Sounds like an attempt to justify an opinion and nothing more.