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Old 08-12-2012, 07:51 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by BGMaverick9 View Post
Initial reaction? Possibly, but that doesn't change the fact he could be right in the big picture. It's not a situation right now where he has to be right or wrong. The rules are going to see another set of changes next summer. Something along the lines of Nash going to the Lakers won't be able to happen since the Lakers are a specific taxpaying team. Seems like the Lakers are willing to bite the bullet on the tax hit, but they can only really max out on the system, likely due to age, for 1-2 years. They'll have to strike while they can.

If this year's team is successful and shows the makings of a team that can build into something with major substance, Cuban can go back to his ways since they sacrificed to get to now.

While there might not have been teams that scaled back on the signings, there were still teams that threw out dumb money. That's going to come back and bite them eventually. It's just one of those things that take time to develop, which no one wants to hear.
The Mavs didn't have time on their side. Even back in 2010-11 we knew Dirk's window was closing. I'd be fine with a solid FO plan that takes time to develop if Dirk was 26.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:00 PM   #82
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Who could have foreseen it? About 1/3 of the fanbase and we posted our opinions about it a priori. Just because you misjudged the situation doesn't mean the rest of us did. Maybe your question should be "How did so many others foresee this but I couldn't?"
This post is strange for two reasons: 1) because unless you used to post under a different user name, you weren't on this board during the 11/12 offseason, and 2) do you really believe that 1/3rd of the fanbase foresaw both Dwight and Chris Paul (who was also scheduled to be a free agent this summer at the time Dallas elected to offer Tyson only a short-term deal) opting into the final years of their respective contracts? Because that strikes me as an incredibly absurd claim.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:14 PM   #83
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This post is strange for two reasons: 1) because unless you used to post under a different user name, you weren't on this board during the 11/12 offseason, and 2) do you really believe that 1/3rd of the fanbase foresaw both Dwight and Chris Paul (who was also scheduled to be a free agent this summer at the time Dallas elected to offer Tyson only a short-term deal) opting into the final years of their respective contracts? Because that strikes me as an incredibly absurd claim.
My posts are mostly on another site. But yes, a significant segment of us saw it from the beginning and posted it. The only thing that caught me off guard was Dwight NOT going to Brooklyn. That was weird and inexplicable that he waived his ETO at the deadline. Chris Paul was never a realistic possibility. As DLord can tell you, I was slapping down his 3D and Dwight-to-Dallas BS from the outset. What exact percentage of tuned-in fans sided with me I can't tell you exactly, but there was a moderately-sized minority that agreed.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:37 PM   #84
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Nope - there is no deal for Collison without Indy's perception of Mahinmi, which was totally based off of his extended role/playtime this last season.

You can talk about making other deals, but even those would have been limited by our inflated payroll and lack of tradeable assets.
Bullshit. Mahinmi was already viewed as a solid backup with good size and athleticism. His value might have actually decreased in 2012 compared to 2011.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:54 PM   #85
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Bullshit. Mahinmi was already viewed as a solid backup with good size and athleticism. His value might have actually decreased in 2012 compared to 2011.
Speaking of bullshit:

2011: 3.1 PPG / 2.1 RPG / 0.2 SPG / 0.3 BPG / 8.7 MPG
2012: 5.8 PPG / 4.7 RPG / 0.6 SPG / 0.5 BPG / 18.7 MPG

You should probably drag your sorry ass back to db.com where people will buy what you're selling... There's no way in hell that Ian Mahinmi was worth more in 2011 than in 2012.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:15 PM   #86
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Were you, as a Mavs fan that watched Mahinmi game-by-game over the last couple of years, higher on him after 2011 or after 2012?

After 2011 I viewed him as a young athletic center with size and decent potential. A backup C that could develop into a starter. He started last season well but numbers dropped off and Brandan Wright picked up more minutes.

In the end Mahinmi put up lower per-minute numbers last season than he did the year before. Failed to take a step forward in development like we had hoped.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:17 PM   #87
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Listen...I'm excited as hell for this next coming season. More excited than I've been in a long time.

But...you are absolutely fooling yourself if you think history is going to look back and say anything besides that we got down on our knees and apologized for winning that championship.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:41 PM   #88
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What exactly did Ian do in 10/11 that is supposed to have maxed out his value? Was 8.7 mostly garbage time minutes per game in only 56 games (in a full season), and spending a decent chunk of the season behind Ajinca on the depth chart really enough to increase his value all the way up to 16+ million from the verifiably low level that it was at in the summer 2010? I don't buy it.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:06 PM   #89
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Were you, as a Mavs fan that watched Mahinmi game-by-game over the last couple of years, higher on him after 2011 or after 2012?
2012, not even close. Is this really a question?
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:10 PM   #90
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Because a flame out was obviously a guarantee. Sounds like an attempt to justify an opinion and nothing more.
I'd suggest it was a lot more likely than them cleaning house and getting another title. The only part that would have been fun of paying those guys to come back is to see them with "swagger." That's about it. Recent history suggests that them defending their title and adding another one to the mantel was highly unlikely.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:10 PM   #91
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2012, not even close. Is this really a question?
It's a shame that we aren't as bright as the cats at db.com are.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:13 PM   #92
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Recent history suggests that them defending their title and adding another one to the mantel was highly unlikely.
Doesn't this mean, precisely, that they didn't "deserve" the first one?

That's what I hate about the argument. It sells out the '11 team.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:17 PM   #93
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Doesn't this mean, precisely, that they didn't "deserve" the first one?

That's what I hate about the argument. It sells out the '11 team.
Not at all.
It means even the greatest of teams the Spurs ever had back in the day couldn't muster up enough juice to make it happen twice in a row. I don't discredit those squads or say they didn't deserve their titles at all. It's just hard ass work to get two or more in a row.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:23 PM   #94
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Not at all.
It means even the greatest of teams the Spurs ever had back in the day couldn't muster up enough juice to make it happen twice in a row. I don't discredit those squads or say they didn't deserve their titles at all. It's just hard ass work to get two or more in a row.
It doesn't have to be in a row. As those Spurs have proven, maintaining the winning tradition is in itself a worthy goal, a worthy goal that pays huge dividends.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:35 PM   #95
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It doesn't have to be in a row. As those Spurs have proven, maintaining the winning tradition is in itself a worthy goal, a worthy goal that pays huge dividends.
Then it doesn't have to be in a row now either for Dallas. In addition to regular work through the draft, the rules have changed and will evolve over time where those who have done the proper work can take advantage of situations and can replenish their roster better than others can.

The Mavs have built their own winning tradition as well. Also, they've had their payoff. They just have done it their own way and haven't been as "successful" as the Spurs. To me, what they did last year or this year doesn't automatically result in them breaking away from that tradition.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:51 PM   #96
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Then it doesn't have to be in a row now either for Dallas.
Let's be sure we are talking about the same thing. It's not that it won't be "in a row" for Dallas. It's that it won't be AT ALL. They blew it up after they won the title, on their own accord. San Antonio never did anything even remotely like that. Instead, what San Antonio has done is rebuild where they could but always keep the core pieces together. It's just not even anywhere near a comparison. I don't know why we are even talking about it. Except, I guess, because yes, it is hard to win it two years in a row. But the flip side of that coin is that, evidently, it is NOT hard to win it three times over a certain span...provided, of course, that you don't decide that you aren't good enough anymore.

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Old 08-12-2012, 10:58 PM   #97
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Let's be sure we are talking about the same thing. It's not that it won't be "in a row" for Dallas. It's that it won't be AT ALL. They blew it up after they won the title, on their own accord. San Antonio never did anything even remotely like that. Instead, what San Antonio has done is rebuild where they could but always keep the core pieces together. It's just not even anywhere near a comparison. I don't know why we are even talking about it. Except, I guess, because yes, it is hard to win it two years in a row. But the flip side of that coin is that, evidently, it is NOT hard to win it three times over a certain span...provided, of course, that you don't decide that you aren't good enough anymore.
They might as well fold up and contract the franchise if it's that definitive.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:06 PM   #98
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They might as well fold up and contract the franchise if it's that definitive.
Fair enough. If they can win it again soon, particularly if Marion stays around, then maybe it can be seen as a repeat. But...I think everyone--deep down, if they will admit it--pretty much feels that they "started over" after '11.

Hard not to find some "give up" in that.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:11 PM   #99
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They might as well fold up and contract the franchise if it's that definitive.
What's the window for winning another title with Dirk and how's the plan working out so far? The only thing we can say definitively is that its been a failure to this point. Unless the plan was barely making the playoff and getting swept by the Thunder in the first round in a "title defense", while striking out on all three of the targeted free agents for which the championship team was sacrificed.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:27 PM   #100
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Fair enough. If they can win it again soon, particularly if Marion stays around, then maybe it can be seen as a repeat. But...I think everyone--deep down, if they will admit it--pretty much feels that they "started over" after '11.

Hard not to find some "give up" in that.
The only thing I would have seen as a "give up" would be trading Dirk for a package that Houston or anyone outside of LA offered for Dwight Howard.

I don't really have to admit anything to anyone. I just have to go with what I know and what I believe. If Dirk was good enough to win with the cast he had in '11, then the job is to find pieces that are comparable or better to work for what he has left/gives up along the way or pieces that are dramatically better to make him a secondary piece.

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What's the window for winning another title with Dirk and how's the plan working out so far? The only thing we can say definitively is that its been a failure to this point. Unless the plan was barely making the playoff and getting swept by the Thunder in the first round in a "title defense", while striking out on all three of the targeted free agents for which the championship team was sacrificed.
The window for Dirk is two years...maybe more. Pretty hard to see how it's working right now since this group of players haven't seen a lick of action together. Last year saw a team that had some upside and potential and was building off of it. They were 9-10 games above. 500 nearing the midway point of the season and then the bottom just fell out.

The franchise could go dark once Dirk leaves or it might not. Based on the leadership and the culture they have created over time, I'm not willing to believe that they will allow it to go dark.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:39 PM   #101
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What's the window for winning another title with Dirk and how's the plan working out so far? The only thing we can say definitively is that its been a failure to this point. Unless the plan was barely making the playoff and getting swept by the Thunder in the first round in a "title defense", while striking out on all three of the targeted free agents for which the championship team was sacrificed.
How's the window for EVER winning a title with Dirk working out so far, you greedy bastard? It's only been one season - you act like this franchise has been wallowing in mediocrity for several years since winning a ring... Lamar Odom was an unforeseeable misstep (one that has been remedied), and the Mavs have been trying to add another All-Star beside Dirk for years now without any luck and won a title anyway... Nothing new to see here, but there's definitely no reason to count us out just yet - especially since we haven't played a single game with a mostly-new team.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:42 PM   #102
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I don't really have to admit anything to anyone. I just have to go with what I know and what I believe. If Dirk was good enough to win with the cast he had in '11, then the job is to find pieces that are comparable or better to work for what he has left/gives up along the way or pieces that are dramatically better to make him a secondary piece.
Well...that's where this whole thing just sort of breaks down logically and ends up being every man to his own taste. Because we can start going in circles quite easily. As in...if there was nothing special about the supporting cast in '11, then why didn't Dirk get anything done before now? Since he didn't, does this imply that there *was* something special about the '11 cast? This can go on and on...

As for whether you "have to admit anything" or not...I certainly wasn't speaking specifically to you. Rather, I was speaking of the general Mavs fan. If you are an exception to that, great. I love optimism as much as the next guy. It's why I am charged up about next year's team.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:52 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by chumdawg View Post
Well...that's where this whole thing just sort of breaks down logically and ends up being every man to his own taste. Because we can start going in circles quite easily. As in...if there was nothing special about the supporting cast in '11, then why didn't Dirk get anything done before now? Since he didn't, does this imply that there *was* something special about the '11 cast? This can go on and on...

As for whether you "have to admit anything" or not...I certainly wasn't speaking specifically to you. Rather, I was speaking of the general Mavs fan. If you are an exception to that, great. I love optimism as much as the next guy. It's why I am charged up about next year's team.
The thing that was "special" about the group was that they played toward the peak at the right time, handled their roles and played together. They also had luck along the way and responded when they easily could have gone off the tracks. It's not a given that they would or would not have done those same things going forward. The only thing that was certain was that they were due to be paid and that was going to cause an issue with what was about to happen with the CBA.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:14 AM   #104
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t's not a given that they would or would not have done those same things going forward.
Exactly. That is the only true statement that can be made. And, one will also note, it says absolutely nothing.

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The only thing that was certain was that they were due to be paid and that was going to cause an issue with what was about to happen with the CBA.
Paid, yes. Cause an issue? Well, if you consider winning another title an "issue," then yeah.

I was just kidding about that.

Or, was I?
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:49 AM   #105
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Jason Kidd sucked last season - explain how Tyson Chandler would've fixed that...
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:00 AM   #106
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I'd suggest it was a lot more likely than them cleaning house and getting another title. The only part that would have been fun of paying those guys to come back is to see them with "swagger." That's about it. Recent history suggests that them defending their title and adding another one to the mantel was highly unlikely.
I know that it was unlikely. The question isn't whether or not it was likey. .it's whether it was more likely than trying to do a major rebuild to a point in which you had a better opportunity to win a title before Dirk was out of his prime.

I've always thought that repeating was a higher percentage proposition..
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:50 AM   #107
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The question isn't whether or not it was likey. .it's whether it was more likely than trying to do a major rebuild to a point in which you had a better opportunity to win a title before Dirk was out of his prime.
The front office has to worry about more than just Dirk's prime.

Fact is, we've got some people on this board who are probably more accurately identified as "Dirk fans" than "Mavs fans." That's fine I suppose, but that's not the front office. By selling out to get another star, they're trying to do a lot more than just win another title in Dirk's prime.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:53 AM   #108
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Yes, they do... I understand that. However, they have to worry about more than Dirk's prime AND they also have to try to put their team in the best place to win a championship.

I completely understand what the front office is doing. The question isn't "what are they doing and why are they doing it".. it's "did they go about it in the right way".

There is obviously a legitimate debate as to whether or not they did. It's not a cut and dry "yes" or "no" proposition as some of you would like to believe. The front office might have very well made the wrong decision.. The insistance that the front office did not and that you're an idiot if you believe otherwise has gone a long way to perpetuate this argument at d-m.com.

As I've said several times on here, I don't know what the right answer was/is. But I'm at least willing to listen to both sides instead of making a complete ass out of myself

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Old 08-13-2012, 10:03 AM   #109
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Jason Kidd sucked last season - explain how Tyson Chandler would've fixed that...
And Jason Terry went back to playing the usual no defense. If Chandler is needed to make others play defense, then that is on those players...not Tyson Chandler. This year's team should be pretty good on both ends and hopefully won't need someone to motivate them to do something they should always be doing anyway.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:05 AM   #110
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Yes, they do... I understand that. However, they have to worry about more than Dirk's prime AND they also have to try to put their team in the best place to win a championship.
Correct, but contrary to what some would imply, winning another championship can happen after Dirk's prime with the right moves and the right fortuity. The front office can't simply assume--as some folks would apparently have them do--that the Mavs' championship window is closed for a long time once Dirk slips.

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I completely understand what the front office is doing. The question isn't "what are they doing and why are they doing it".. it's "did they go about it in the right way".
I agree.

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Originally Posted by Murphy3 View Post
There is obviously a legitimate debate as to whether or not they did. It's not a cut and dry "yes" or "no" proposition as some of you would like to believe. The front office might have very well made the wrong decision.. The insistance that the front office did not and that you're an idiot if you believe otherwise has gone a long way to perpetuate this argument at d-m.com.
Hey, you don't have to tell me this. This is how I think about pretty much everything

That said, there is a clear difference between disagreeing with someone's ultimate opinion on an issue and calling him an idiot, versus recognizing that he's offered objectively poor reasons in support. There's some of the former going on, but there's also plenty of the latter being mistaken for the former.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:39 AM   #111
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I was just kidding about that.

Or, was I?
I don't know, haha.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:33 PM   #112
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Jason Kidd sucked last season - explain how Tyson Chandler would've fixed that...
Watch the All-NBA center play with Kidd on the Knicks this season for your answer.

I'd say the answer is four-part:
  • Chandler lobs
    Chandler screens
    Chandler spacing
    Chandler covering defensive weaknesses

All of which would have helped Kidd and Dirk last season. Not to mention giving the team hope of defending the title rather than going through the season as Jet said "playing for next year".
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:10 PM   #113
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Kidd is still likely going to be the backup point guard for the Knicks, so it's not a given he'll get as much action with Chandler as you think he may get. If he's getting a lot of minutes, the Knicks are in big trouble and Kidd is liable to break down.

I'm guessing Chandler screens wouldn't have done much for Kidd because he didn't want to push towards the rim and he was pretty rough when he actually tried to finish at the rim. Defenders would know Kidd doesn't want to go to the rim so they could alter their coverage and still protect against Chandler.

Kidd's problems mainly fell in line with sporadic shooting, a natural drop in the ability to man up bigger guards for long periods of time, health and a highly unusual drop in basketball IQ.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:53 PM   #114
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Kidd is still likely going to be the backup point guard for the Knicks, so it's not a given he'll get as much action with Chandler as you think he may get. If he's getting a lot of minutes, the Knicks are in big trouble and Kidd is liable to break down.

I'm guessing Chandler screens wouldn't have done much for Kidd because he didn't want to push towards the rim and he was pretty rough when he actually tried to finish at the rim. Defenders would know Kidd doesn't want to go to the rim so they could alter their coverage and still protect against Chandler.

Kidd's problems mainly fell in line with sporadic shooting, a natural drop in the ability to man up bigger guards for long periods of time, health and a highly unusual drop in basketball IQ.

Man, the Knicks must really suck if they're counting on Raymond Felton accomplishing anything other than finishing the leftovers...
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:22 AM   #115
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Man, the Knicks must really suck if they're counting on Raymond Felton accomplishing anything other than finishing the leftovers.
6.2/5.5 on 36% shooting
11.4/6.5 on 41% shooting

That PG duo is terrible. Kidd only drives into the paint when he has a few tequila shots in him, and the results aren't pretty. And the only thing Felton wiggles his way through is the buffet line.

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Old 08-14-2012, 01:44 PM   #116
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Jason Kidd sucked last season - explain how Tyson Chandler would've fixed that...
This ^ personally I am not one of those that thinks bringing back the band would have had us winning it all. I am just one those that thinks Dirk + Chandler is a great combo. Could there be others? Maybe. Can we get them here? Maybe. Did Tyson offer to stay? Hell yes. Mine is a one in the hand two in the bush sort of argument. I towed the line at the time when we let them all go and understand the Cuban CBA thoughts. But looking back I kinda wish we paid that man his money (just Chandler not the rest). Now we have to scratch to get another big man to play some hard D behind Dirk.
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Old 08-14-2012, 02:03 PM   #117
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This ^ personally I am not one of those that thinks bringing back the band would have had us winning it all. I am just one those that thinks Dirk + Chandler is a great combo. Could there be others? Maybe. Can we get them here? Maybe. Did Tyson offer to stay? Hell yes. Mine is a one in the hand two in the bush sort of argument. I towed the line at the time when we let them all go and understand the Cuban CBA thoughts. But looking back I kinda wish we paid that man his money (just Chandler not the rest). Now we have to scratch to get another big man to play some hard D behind Dirk.
I think you're where alot of people are. Some seem to think that the only options were to either keep the band together or to basically blow it all apart except for the people they kept for the 2011 season..
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Old 08-14-2012, 02:37 PM   #118
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This ^ personally I am not one of those that thinks bringing back the band would have had us winning it all. I am just one those that thinks Dirk + Chandler is a great combo. Could there be others? Maybe. Can we get them here? Maybe. Did Tyson offer to stay? Hell yes. Mine is a one in the hand two in the bush sort of argument. I towed the line at the time when we let them all go and understand the Cuban CBA thoughts. But looking back I kinda wish we paid that man his money (just Chandler not the rest). Now we have to scratch to get another big man to play some hard D behind Dirk.
Scratch to get another big man to play D? The center position is stronger than ever. Kaman and Brand each averaged 1.6 blocks per game last season. Sure, no player is the help-side defender that Tyson is, but this current team doesn't need to rely on it. Kidd and Terry aren't on the team anymore. Good grief, not two seasons ago people were gushing over getting a guy like Kaman. Some people need to open their eyes to what we actually have.
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:40 PM   #119
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Scratch to get another big man to play D? The center position is stronger than ever. Kaman and Brand each averaged 1.6 blocks per game last season. Sure, no player is the help-side defender that Tyson is, but this current team doesn't need to rely on it. Kidd and Terry aren't on the team anymore. Good grief, not two seasons ago people were gushing over getting a guy like Kaman. Some people need to open their eyes to what we actually have.
OK OK OK... lol I am with you man, this will be fun to see how they come together no doubt. I am just a fan of the Chandler/Dirk combo. I thought it was solid. Kaman, if he stays healthy and Brand if he works out will be great too and maybe I will BECOME a fan of one of those combos. And yes we had to scratch to get Brand on a lucky bid and Kaman could have easily slipped away. My point was that we HAD a guy in our hand that worked. That's all. And I totally agree that the FO flipped it up with efficiency at the last second. Kudos for that move.

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Old 08-14-2012, 04:19 PM   #120
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Bringing back the '11 championship team doesn't even get them to the WCF last year. Arguable they even get out of the first round, but that would depend on seeding. The Spurs, Clippers, Thunder and Lakers all got better (maybe even Nuggets).

Nothing is "knowable" when talking about bringing back the championship team, but I'm pretty damn confident in the above statements.

It's not even a thing of hindsight anymore. That team would simply get beat by at least 4 western conference teams this last year. ESPECIALLY in a lockout year.

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