Bernard vs the field - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

jthig32 · 07-21-2013, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moogle

Stats from 9.9 minutes per game doesn't tell you a lot about a player. The only thing it tells you is that he wasn't good enough to earn more minutes.

What's also telling is that he played fewer minutes as the season went on. When the Mavs made their post All-Star Break surge, Bernard had 15 DNPs coach's decision, and barely averaged 4 minutes in the games he did play. I would be more optimistic if he finished his rookie season on an upward trend.

A relatively easy counter point would be that there's a pretty well accepted thought out there that a lot of rookies hit a wall adjusting to such a longer schedule.

I've never seen any data to back it up but it certainly holds water logically.

moogle · 07-21-2013, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick41

Good thing he plays basketball with shoes on.

Height measured with shoes are seldom accurate. Sometimes the shoes add an inch, other times it adds 2 inches. Only way to be consistent is to measure without shoes.

Jae Crowder's official height is listed at 6'6" which is laughable. His shoe-less height puts him at a shade under 6'4", which I think is far more consistent with what my eyes tell me about his height. My eyes tell me he was closer in height to Kidd than he was to Marion.

moogle · 07-21-2013, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

A relatively easy counter point would be that there's a pretty well accepted thought out there that a lot of rookies hit a wall adjusting to such a longer schedule.

I've never seen any data to back it up but it certainly holds water logically.

I would buy into the "rookie wall" justification for rookies logging heavy minutes. But James was only playing 11 minutes per game and also racking up a lot of DNPs too. I don't think the rookie wall should affect him nearly as much.

EricaLubarsky · 07-21-2013, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moogle

Stats from 9.9 minutes per game doesn't tell you a lot about a player. The only thing it tells you is that he wasn't good enough to earn more minutes.

1) It doesn't tell you a lot, but you've yet to provide anything. I'll take advanced stats over some DM.com poster who says that stats mean nothing-- particularly when those advanced stats measure ON COURT and are scaled for playing time.
2) Nash got 23 DNPs in his first two seasons and only averaged 10mpg in his rookie year and 22mpg his sophomore year.
Kobe averaged 15mpg and had 11 DNPs in his first season
Dirk had 35 DNPs his first season and only averaged 20mpg

Are you saying that those guys werent good enough to earn more minutes?

I won't say that James is that good, but your train of thought is ridiculous as well. DNP CDs and playtime are not directly related to player talent-- particularly in a rookie season. I'll discount James' pretty good stats, but I won't throw them away and I'd put alot more money on ACTUAL stats than on someone saying that PT and DNPs are a better measurement of talent than on court numbers.

Rick41 · 07-21-2013, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moogle

Height measured with shoes are seldom accurate. Sometimes the shoes add an inch, other times it adds 2 inches. Only way to be consistent is to measure without shoes.

Jae Crowder's official height is listed at 6'6" which is laughable. His shoe-less height puts him at a shade under 6'4", which I think is far more consistent with what my eyes tell me about his height. My eyes tell me he was closer in height to Kidd than he was to Marion.

Who gives a shit about players heights without shoes?

They play with shoes on and that's that. So Sarge is 6'10.

jthig32 · 07-21-2013, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moogle

I would buy into the "rookie wall" justification for rookies logging heavy minutes. But James was only playing 11 minutes per game and also racking up a lot of DNPs too. I don't think the rookie wall should affect him nearly as much.

Mmm...maybe. Still doesn't account for the grind of the travel. And the low minute guys all do extra work after games and practices so it may not be as big of a difference as you might initially think.

He's also older, so theoretically his body might not be as quick to adjust to all those things. My body certainly stopped adjusting to change as quickly as I approached 30.

But now I've reached the precipice of out and out conjecture, so I'm going to stop.

EricaLubarsky · 07-21-2013, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moogle

Height measured with shoes are seldom accurate. Sometimes the shoes add an inch, other times it adds 2 inches. Only way to be consistent is to measure without shoes.

Jae Crowder's official height is listed at 6'6" which is laughable. His shoe-less height puts him at a shade under 6'4", which I think is far more consistent with what my eyes tell me about his height. My eyes tell me he was closer in height to Kidd than he was to Marion.

And yet it's not a game played barefoot.

You could make the same argument that players are actually shorter if they played in wheelchairs which would be true, but again NO ONE plays NBA ball in a wheelchair and no one plays basketball without shoes PERIOD.

There is a reason that NBA/ESPN/ABC and EVERY OTHER sports outlet report player height with shoes.

sike · 07-21-2013, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

But now I've reached the precipice of out and out conjecture, so I'm going to stop.

No, no....please tell me more about your body nearing 30 so I can know how to evaluate professional athletes.

sike · 07-21-2013, 08:06 PM

Would the addition of James exclude the acquisition of Carmichael? Bc from what I heard, I really liked his potential as an athletic hustle defender.

jthig32 · 07-21-2013, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

No, no....please tell me more about your body nearing 30 so I can know how to evaluate professional athletes.

No one asked you, Sikey.

Also, are we really arguing the height thing? It seems fairly easy to stipulate that, all things being equal, things would be much more accurate and useful if everyone reported athletes' heights without shoes.

But by and large, they don't, so it's a generally well accepted short hand to use their in-height shoes.

Seems like a silly discussion point either way, no?

Now, back to my body and what it means to the Mavs chances....

EricaLubarsky · 07-21-2013, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Would the addition of James exclude the acquisition of Carmichael? Bc from what I heard, I really liked his potential as an athletic hustle defender.

Dalembert/Wright/James
Dirk
Marion/Crowder/Carter
Ellis/Ellington/Ledo
Calderon/Mekel/Larkin

That's 13 guys without Akognon. There'd definitely be room for a 4/5 even if Marion and Wright could easily skip over to spell Dirk.I could see them wanting to pick up a frontcourt guy for a little depth.

jthig32 · 07-21-2013, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Would the addition of James exclude the acquisition of Carmichael? Bc from what I heard, I really liked his potential as an athletic hustle defender.

If they strike out on Oden, I could see scenarios where they leave that spot for a Summer League player they like.

However, they already have a lot of development players on the roster with Ledo, Larkin and possibly Mekel, depending on how his transition goes. With James not being a seasoned vet either, I personally think it's a lot more likely that they bring in a veteran big man to sit the bench and provide injury/foul insurance.

sike · 07-21-2013, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

If they strike out on Oden, I could see scenarios where they leave that spot for a Summer League player they like.

However, they already have a lot of development players on the roster with Ledo, Larkin and possibly Mekel, depending on how his transition goes. With James not being a seasoned vet either, I personally think it's a lot more likely that they bring in a veteran big man to sit the bench and provide injury/foul insurance.

That makes sense. Is James more of an NBA big than Carmichael? Bc to me, James is totally just a guy.

jthig32 · 07-21-2013, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

That makes sense. Is James more of an NBA big than Carmichael? Bc to me, James is totally just a guy.

I haven't watched enough of Summer League to know anything about Carmichael. I'd have to let someone else comment.

grndmstr_c · 07-21-2013, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moogle

I don't like projecting PER36 numbers for a player who averaged only 9.9 minutes per game.

Who's projecting? It's an objective characterization of how he actually performed while on the court last season, and far more relevant to evaluating his contractual value than his height, which might have been a reason not to draft him, but certainly isn't any kind of reason to discount his production as an NBA player.

Eman · 07-21-2013, 10:41 PM

Sarge Cleared waivers as of 4pm. We can bring him back if we want.

sike · 07-21-2013, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Dalembert/Wright/James
Dirk
Marion/Crowder/Carter
Ellis/Ellington/Ledo
Calderon/Mekel/Larkin

Ledo? I want that dude in the DLeague learning how to be a pro and how to sharpen his skills.

#41 Shoot em up · 07-22-2013, 12:09 AM

Bernard sucks. Don't know why everybody up in arms about this scrub

EricaLubarsky · 07-22-2013, 12:38 AM

BGMaverick9 · 07-22-2013, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I haven't watched enough of Summer League to know anything about Carmichael. I'd have to let someone else comment.

Both float on offense, but I know Carmichael can do more on offense than James can right now. He came on strong after the first two games in Vegas, when he actually got time to play.

His timing on defense is really sharp. His wingspan works to where he can go for blocks and not have to be on the hip of the guy he's going after. Strong enough too to swat those shots away at point blank range.

His size is an issue, but I'm a fan of him.

G-Man · 07-22-2013, 01:58 AM

I'm not a fan of undersized centers, because they have to battle so hard to be effective on defense. I love Sarge's story, and his effort. I'm just not sure he can play center, and his offense isn't good enough to play the 4. As the third center, he'd be okay, but if Damenbert of Wright went down, we'd be in big trouble,

He15man · 07-22-2013, 02:39 AM

Don't care either way at this point, the chances of the guy making a big impact are slim.

However if Cuban gave him his word he would re-sign him if he cleared waivers i expect Cuban to do it.

oilfieldtrash · 07-22-2013, 08:13 AM

Sure beats what's left on the market. He looked solid enough last year in the little time he had.

Murphy3 · 07-22-2013, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

1) It doesn't tell you a lot, but you've yet to provide anything. I'll take advanced stats over some DM.com poster who says that stats mean nothing-- particularly when those advanced stats measure ON COURT and are scaled for playing time.
2) Nash got 23 DNPs in his first two seasons and only averaged 10mpg in his rookie year and 22mpg his sophomore year.
Kobe averaged 15mpg and had 11 DNPs in his first season
Dirk had 35 DNPs his first season and only averaged 20mpg

Are you saying that those guys werent good enough to earn more minutes?

I won't say that James is that good, but your train of thought is ridiculous as well. DNP CDs and playtime are not directly related to player talent-- particularly in a rookie season. I'll discount James' pretty good stats, but I won't throw them away and I'd put alot more money on ACTUAL stats than on someone saying that PT and DNPs are a better measurement of talent than on court numbers.

Erica, are you smoking crack again?

saclare · 07-22-2013, 10:30 AM

Moogle the height expert.

Underdog · 07-22-2013, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Both float on offense, but I know Carmichael can do more on offense than James can right now. He came on strong after the first two games in Vegas, when he actually got time to play.

His timing on defense is really sharp. His wingspan works to where he can go for blocks and not have to be on the hip of the guy he's going after. Strong enough too to swat those shots away at point blank range.

His size is an issue, but I'm a fan of him.

I wouldn't say Carmichael's size is an issue, so much as his height. Dude has some bulk to him - kinda reminds me of a slightly taller Brandon Bass... And like Bass, he plays more like a center than a forward, which I agree, is a bit of an issue in a sport where height tends to dictate position.

He should get a camp invite, but I'd really like to see him earn a roster spot. Carmichael was probably our second-most impressive Summer League player behind Mekel.

moogle · 07-22-2013, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

1) It doesn't tell you a lot, but you've yet to provide anything. I'll take advanced stats over some DM.com poster who says that stats mean nothing-- particularly when those advanced stats measure ON COURT and are scaled for playing time.

I never said advanced stats mean nothing. I said advanced stats based on 9.9 minutes per game mean nothing. There is a big difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

2) Nash got 23 DNPs in his first two seasons and only averaged 10mpg in his rookie year and 22mpg his sophomore year.

Jason Kidd was playing behind two Hall of Famers in Jason Kidd & Kevin Johnson in their primes. Bernard James was playing behind Chris Kaman & Elton Brand on the wrong side of 30.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Kobe averaged 15mpg and had 11 DNPs in his first season

Kobe Bryant was barely 18 years old when the season started. He was also playing behind Eddie Jones --- who was an All-Star that season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Dirk had 35 DNPs his first season and only averaged 20mpg

Uhm... check your facts again. Dirk only had 3 DNP's in 1998, not 35. Dirk was a 19-year old kid from Germany who was dumped into the NBA in a strike-shortened 50-game season with hardly any time for training camp or preseason. 20 minutes per game is pretty much normal under those circumstances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Are you saying that those guys werent good enough to earn more minutes?

See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I won't say that James is that good, but your train of thought is ridiculous as well.

I think it's funny the way you worded that. So you're letting it slip that using PER36 stats is ridiculous after all?

Ultimately, my whole point is that Bernard James is a scrub with very little upside. But I won't let myself get dragged down into a pointless back-and-forth debate where the most stubborn hot head wins. History will decide who is right. So I'll just say this: I'll bookmark this thread and bump it after the 2013-14 season.

We'll all see then who was being ridiculous.

Underdog · 07-22-2013, 11:31 AM

Quote:

James clears waivers, expected to re-sign with Mavs

link

Second-year center Bernard James cleared waivers and is expected to re-sign with the Mavs, sources told ESPN.com's Marc Stein.

The Mavs didn't want to waive James, but they needed every possible dollar of salary-cap space as they prepare to finalize a three-year deal for more than $25 million with Monta Ellis. Waiving James, who had a nonguaranteed contract, created almost $300,000 of cap space.

The Mavs have an agreement in principle to re-sign the 6-foot-10, 240-pound James to a minimum-salary contract after making the Ellis deal official. James, who played in 46 games as a rookie, would back up Samuel Dalembert and Brandan Wright. The Mavs have early Bird rights for Wright, meaning they can exceed the cap to re-sign him, and his return is a virtual certainty.

So when does the Ellis deal become official? Are we still waiting on Oden to make a decision, or what?

BGMaverick9 · 07-22-2013, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I wouldn't say Carmichael's size is an issue, so much as his height. Dude has some bulk to him - kinda reminds me of a slightly taller Brandon Bass... And like Bass, he plays more like a center than a forward, which I agree, is a bit of an issue in a sport where height tends to dictate position.

He should get a camp invite, but I'd really like to see him earn a roster spot. Carmichael was probably our second-most impressive Summer League player behind Mekel.

One way or another, Carmichael is going to someone's camp. I know he's got one sure-fire invite on the table from someone, possibly another team. Waiting to hear if Dallas will offer him one.

DirkFTW · 07-22-2013, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

One way or another, Carmichael is going to someone's camp. I know he's got one sure-fire invite on the table from someone, possibly another team. Waiting to hear if Dallas will offer him one.

Uhhh... crud? Shouldn't we be grabbing all the young bigs we can to see what pans out.

Or are we banking on LeBron's dad still?

Bayliss · 07-22-2013, 12:00 PM

He reminds me of Kenyon Martin.

moogle · 07-22-2013, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by He15man

Don't care either way at this point, the chances of the guy making a big impact are slim.

However if Cuban gave him his word he would re-sign him if he cleared waivers i expect Cuban to do it.

No doubt the Mavs will re-sign him. But by having waived him, I think they gave up his Early Birds Rights for next summer. If for whatever reason Bernard James enjoys a big season, the Mavs will have a hard time keeping him next summer.

Dirk's Knee · 07-22-2013, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moogle

Stats from 9.9 minutes per game doesn't tell you a lot about a player. The only thing it tells you is that he wasn't good enough to earn more minutes.

What's also telling is that he played fewer minutes as the season went on. When the Mavs made their post All-Star Break surge, Bernard had 15 DNPs coach's decision, and barely averaged 4 minutes in the games he did play. I would be more optimistic if he finished his rookie season on an upward trend.

Wright had a ton of DNP-CD in the first half the season but finished things out as the most efficient scorer on the squad. Let's remember also for whatever reason RC really wanted Kaman on the floor and will always look to vets over rookies for the lion's share of minutes. I'm not saying Sarge is going to be some type of huge star. But if he can improve a bit on what he did last season, I think he's a solid backup option defensively. Let's remember he had a 7 block game last year and 6 other games with 3+ blocks.

saclare · 07-22-2013, 01:36 PM

Guys, you all are arguing way too much about Sarge. He will be a good backup for us with the potential to spot-start when/if needed. He is depth, no matter how hard you try to argue Per36 numbers and what he could do blah blah blah. He brings energy and toughness. He's a solid, back-up big man.

He15man · 07-22-2013, 02:11 PM

He's a young big who's been in the Mavs system for a year now so for cheap I of course would welcome him back.

But it's not like we're losing on Dwight Howard with this guy either.

Glad to see Cuban keeping his word and bringing him back.

oilfieldtrash · 07-22-2013, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

One way or another, Carmichael is going to someone's camp. I know he's got one sure-fire invite on the table from someone, possibly another team. Waiting to hear if Dallas will offer him one.

Why wouldn't they bring him to camp?

SMC0007 · 07-22-2013, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Why wouldn't they bring him to camp?

We just offered Sarge money and Carmicheal is imo a questionable center because of his size. My bet is he will get a shot at our camp tho.

Underdog · 07-22-2013, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

We just offered Sarge money and Carmicheal is imo a questionable center because of his size. My bet is he will get a shot at our camp tho.

Carmichael is a forward.