Has Mavs defense really improved? Or it's only an Illusion? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

jibikao · 12-07-2004, 09:48 AM

Hey guys,

I guess I was just very disappointed in last night's loss. It's another ugly home court loss to a contending team. That just makes Mavs NOT READY at all.

Well, I've heard Mavs' defense has improved quite a lot this year, So I did a little search to see why Mavs couldn't stop the Pistons from scoring... Here is what I got:

Mavs
Point Per Game: 98.6
Point Per Game from Opponent: 95.6 <-----

Before Nash left, people have been criticizing that Nash is one of the big reasons why Mavs' defense sucks. Ok, here is another stats:

Suns
Point Per Game: 107.8
Point Per Game from Opponent: 95.9 <-----
11.9 point difference!

That's ugly comparion if you ask me. I am quite disappointed. We traded for defense players but the result is quite disappointing. Maybe I am hoping for too much but the point differential is UGLY. Mavs can only win by 3 pts per game while Suns can win by 11.9.

Spurs has these:
Point Per Game: 96.1
Point Per Game from Opponent: 84.1

Spurs has 12 pt differential and you wonder why they are so good.

Sigh... Mavs really needs to worry about their defense. They have too many people fighting for shots. Dirk SHOULD get the most shots and the other guys should be the supporting cast. Josh Howard has been playing great but I am not so sure about other players. Too much ups and downs. One day Terry scores 20... another day Stackhouse scores 20... it's just so inconsistent. Mavs keeps changing lineups and I really doubt if it's beneficial in the end. Who is the REAL point guard? One day it's Harris...then Terry and now it's Armstrong. WTF??

Sorry for all the venting...

Jimmy

Dooby · 12-07-2004, 10:57 AM

Defense is defense. Offense is offense. Point differential relates the two; it is not a measure of defense.

The mavs are a better defensive unit. Period.

giantbenmav · 12-07-2004, 11:08 AM

In Dallas Nash was on a team with weak defenders.....IN Phoenix Nash is on arguably the most athletic team in the NBA.......

Phoenix might not be the best defenders, but they are so athletic that they can fake it.........

jibikao · 12-07-2004, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Dooby
Defense is defense. Offense is offense. Point differential relates the two; it is not a measure of defense.

The mavs are a better defensive unit. Period.

Ok, so they can hold opponent under 100 per game but they don't even score 100 per game. What good is defense if you have bad offense?

Point differential is probably the best stats to look at.

The reason I brought up Suns is that Mavs would rather sign Dampier and let Nash go for better defense. I know Nash was demanding a lot of cash but he is really a great PG and I don't think Dampier has done all that much so far.

The thing I don't like Nelson's approach is that Dampier is merely a defense man on the floor. Why doesn't Mavs run some offense through him? I just don't think Mavs has played even 65% of its potential.

Jimmy

Mavs4skin · 12-07-2004, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: jibikao

Quote:

Originally posted by: Dooby
Defense is defense. Offense is offense. Point differential relates the two; it is not a measure of defense.

The mavs are a better defensive unit. Period.

Point differential is probably the best stats to look at.

Jimmy

Couldn't disagree more. Point differential is a very unreliable stat to judge a team by. Blow outs against crappy teams can severely skew the reality of a teams success and overall capabilities.

jibikao · 12-07-2004, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Mavs4skin

Quote:

Originally posted by: jibikao

Quote:

Originally posted by: Dooby
Defense is defense. Offense is offense. Point differential relates the two; it is not a measure of defense.

The mavs are a better defensive unit. Period.

Point differential is probably the best stats to look at.

Jimmy

Then why hasn't Mavs blown out more this year? They have played bad teams. The only blow out I can remember is Heat. It's ON AVERAGE in my opinion. You blew out bad teams and you got blown out. The point differential is not as "inaccurate" as you thought. Spurs has the best point differential and are you saying that that's NOT accurate? They even blew out Mavs.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Spurs but I just think we need to see the reality. Ok, we have better defense now. Then what? Maybe improving passing a little bit? Ok, now they have Armstrong and we'll see how they do tonight against the Wolves.

Jimmy

Couldn't disagree more. Point differential is a very unreliable stat to judge a team by. Blow outs against crappy teams can severely skew the reality of a teams success and overall capabilities.

MAVSWIN · 12-07-2004, 07:14 PM

They have better defenders than last year. Don Nelson runs too much zone for the Mavs to be a good defensive team! This is why the team gets lazy to guard. Nelson doesn't have a clue when it comes to defense. I thinks he hates the idea of having a team go out and guard man to man.

greensborohill · 12-08-2004, 08:35 AM

The guy who started this thread is an idiot.

jibikao · 12-08-2004, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: greensborohill
The guy who started this thread is an idiot.

Thank you. I started.

greensborohill · 12-08-2004, 10:03 AM

Reason I said that is you started to say that the Mavs had bad D, then when someone brought up some stats that showed otherwise you said the following. . .

Quote:

Ok, so they can hold opponent under 100 per game but they don't even score 100 per game. What good is defense if you have bad offense?

So basically you back tracked. You came in here and made a statement on the Mavs D without knowing what you were talking about first. And that's why I said what I said.

Defense should be judge within the context of every game. Pheonix doesn't want to play grind it out, they want to run, and since they are a great offensive team most teams can't hang and so you see a large point differential. If you let the Suns dictate the pace of the game then you will most likely lose.

The Mavs are vastly improved on defense, that is a fact. All you have to do is look at opponenets FG% to prove that. Offense is what needs to be improved, and that should happen with time. The more this team plays together the more they will gel. PG play will be key as well.

alby · 12-08-2004, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Too much ups and downs. One day Terry scores 20... another day Stackhouse scores 20... it's just so inconsistent. Mavs keeps changing lineups and I really doubt if it's beneficial in the end. Who is the REAL point guard? One day it's Harris...then Terry and now it's Armstrong. WTF??

the whole point of having a deep team with various offensive weapons is to attack your opponent with many different angles and combinations of players, is it not? our defense is without a doubt, a much better unit this year.. if you have been watching the games, you would be seeing this for yourself. with our offseason moves and our lingering injury problems, scoring 98 points a game up to this point in the season is damn good if you ask me.

jibikao · 12-08-2004, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: greensborohill
Reason I said that is you started to say that the Mavs had bad D, then when someone brought up some stats that showed otherwise you said the following. . .

Quote:

Ok, so they can hold opponent under 100 per game but they don't even score 100 per game. What good is defense if you have bad offense?

So basically you back tracked. You came in here and made a statement on the Mavs D without knowing what you were talking about first. And that's why I said what I said.

Defense should be judge within the context of every game. Pheonix doesn't want to play grind it out, they want to run, and since they are a great offensive team most teams can't hang and so you see a large point differential. If you let the Suns dictate the pace of the game then you will most likely lose.

The Mavs are vastly improved on defense, that is a fact. All you have to do is look at opponenets FG% to prove that. Offense is what needs to be improved, and that should happen with time. The more this team plays together the more they will gel. PG play will be key as well.

Now you post something more "reasonable" than "whoever started this thread is an idiot".

I am always open to discussions and that's what these basketball forums are for. I was pissed that Mavs lost to Spurs twice and both were kinda ugly. I still think the point differential is something they need to think about. Good defense is great but if you want to win on a consistent basis, you need good offense too.

I've only had the chance to watch two Mavs games this year. I just don't like the way they run offense. There's hardly ball movement and the PGs sucked big time. I am glad that Terry got replaced by Armstrong. Terry plays a lot like Nick Van which is important when Mavs needs offense from the bench. Harris is still too inexperienced which I can understand.

In conclusion, when you have better defense and better offense, you have better point differential.

Jimmy

greensborohill · 12-08-2004, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: jibikao

Quote:

Originally posted by: greensborohill
Reason I said that is you started to say that the Mavs had bad D, then when someone brought up some stats that showed otherwise you said the following. . .

Quote:

Ok, so they can hold opponent under 100 per game but they don't even score 100 per game. What good is defense if you have bad offense?

So basically you back tracked. You came in here and made a statement on the Mavs D without knowing what you were talking about first. And that's why I said what I said.

Defense should be judge within the context of every game. Pheonix doesn't want to play grind it out, they want to run, and since they are a great offensive team most teams can't hang and so you see a large point differential. If you let the Suns dictate the pace of the game then you will most likely lose.

The Mavs are vastly improved on defense, that is a fact. All you have to do is look at opponenets FG% to prove that. Offense is what needs to be improved, and that should happen with time. The more this team plays together the more they will gel. PG play will be key as well.

Now you post something more "reasonable" than "whoever started this thread is an idiot".

I am always open to discussions and that's what these basketball forums are for. I was pissed that Mavs lost to Spurs twice and both were kinda ugly. I still think the point differential is something they need to think about. Good defense is great but if you want to win on a consistent basis, you need good offense too.

I've only had the chance to watch two Mavs games this year. I just don't like the way they run offense. There's hardly ball movement and the PGs sucked big time. I am glad that Terry got replaced by Armstrong. Terry plays a lot like Nick Van which is important when Mavs needs offense from the bench. Harris is still too inexperienced which I can understand.

In conclusion, when you have better defense and better offense, you have better point differential.

Jimmy

Ball movement was MUCH better last night. It was a total team effort. Armstrong made a big difference with his play making. Give it time, they have a million new players.

u2sarajevo · 12-08-2004, 11:56 AM

In relation to the Offense being lackluster compared to our Defense.... let us not forget that our Offense is missing a key piece in Finley. So I think an evaluation on the Offense now is a bit premature.

backyard_legend · 12-08-2004, 11:39 PM

i think these are all good arguments, but the main point of the offseason was to make this a good playoff basketball team - by playing good defense and running an effiecient half-court offense. the mavs and sacramento the last couple years have proven that you can get close with flashy, uptempo offense, but that is not the style that wins championships. although it was better watching the mavs score alot in the past years, its also fun to actually feel confident that we're going to get the stops we need going down the stretch.

EricaLubarsky · 12-12-2004, 11:42 PM

Dallas is
1st in 3pt defense. (29.6% 3pt shooting from opponents)
2nd in rebounding
4th in overall opponent FG% (42.4%)
5th in the NBA in steals per game. (8.86)
6th in point differential
10th in blocked shots per game (5.72bpg)
12th in opponent ppg (94.9ppg)

looks like we are rebounding adequately, we are defending the entire floor. Unlike last year, we are defending the three point line.

Our real weaknesses are assists and the related stats.
30th (last) in the league in apg (17.68)
27th assist differential (outassisted by 3.45apg)
20th in FG% (43.2%)
16th in 3pt % (34.0%)

Those are all to be expected from a young team. DA's 8ast, 0TO game looks good for this team, and if Terry can have 9+ assist games more often as he gets comfortable, then we will be in better shape. Our league-worst APG makes scoring harder, which reduces all of our scoring numbers. We are 4th in opponent FG%, 1st in opponent 3pt FG%, 2nd in rebounding, 5th in steals and 10th in blocks. That is solid defense.

Here are a few ideas on scoring:

need to shoot more
Dirk Nowitzki (46.0%),
Jason Terry (47.7%),
Michael Finley (45.4%)
Marquis Daniels (46.1%)

on the cusp
Josh Howard (42.7%) When he's on, he's on. When he's not, he drags the FG% badly.
Erick Dampier (50.4%) astounding that I could put a 50% guy on the cusp, but he shouldnt increase his shot attempts.
Alan Henderson (46.0%. He's good when the offense comes to him. Really bad when making offense)
Shawn Bradley (40.5%) Only when he's wide open, closer than 15 or when he has a layup/dunk
Devin Harris (37.9%) He'd be in the lower category if he wasnt in training and if he was still shooting it.

need to shoot less
Jerry Stackhouse (37.1%)
Darrell Armstrong (29.0%) His 2-4 night at Houston with 8 assists- thats exactly what he needs to do.

of course it isnt as simple as giving extra shots to those that are scoring efficiently and they will score at that same clip, but its late enough in the season to see offensive efficiency and some guys arent cutting it.

leaders 12/12/04

leaders in steals per game
#21 Marquis Daniels (1.43spg),
#28 Devin Harris (1.35spg),
#29 Dirk Nowitzki (1.33spg)
#29 Jason Terry (1.33spg)
#33 Josh Howard (1.32spg)

leaders in steals
#17 Marquis Daniels 30steals
#19 Josh Howard 29steals
#20 Dirk Nowitzki 28steals
#20 Jason Terry 28steals

leaders in rebounds per game
#7 Dirk Nowitzki (10.8rpg)
#32 Erick Dampier ( 7.8rpg)
#37 Josh Howard (7.0rpg)

Leaders: Free throws made
#1 Dirk Nowitzki (183)
#19 Jerry Stackhouse (105)

leaders: 3pt %
#7 Michael Finley (45.5%)
#13 Dirk Nowitzki (42.9%)
#22 Jason Terry (41.3%)

dude1394 · 12-13-2004, 12:06 AM

Pretty sad isn't it. Fin/Dirk/Terry shoot better from 3pt than stack does 37% from 2pt land. And by almost 10% in Fins case. Wow...

Where is old 'ape when you need him...

TheBaron · 01-04-2005, 03:50 PM

updated some of Erica's numbers from a while back

old (December 12th, 2004) -------new (January 4th, 2005)
1st in opp. 3pt% (29.6%)--> 1st in opp. 3pt% (29.6%) same good 3pt defense
2nd in the league in team RPG-->1st in the league in team RPG mild improvement
4th in overall opp. FG% (42.4%)-->8th in overall opp. FG% (43.2%) allowing opponents 80% of one percentage point more which matches the increase in our own FG%
5th in the NBA in steals per game (8.86)-->2nd in the NBA in steals per game (9.20) moderate increase
6th in point differential--> 4th in point differential (+5.76) moderate increase
10th in blocked shots per game (5.72bpg)--> 9th in blocked shots per game (5.70bpg) basicallt the same- one team ahead of us dropped
12th in opponent ppg (94.9ppg)--> 12th in opponent ppg (95.10ppg) basically the same

30th (last) in the league in apg (17.68)--> 30th in the league in apg (18.30apg) 23.2apg over the last five which would be third if compared to the current league stats 29.5 over the last two.
27th assist differential (outassisted by 3.45apg)-->27th in assist differential (outassisted by 3.23apg) basically a small decrease, but nearly identical to the old numbers
20th in FG% (43.2%) --> 15th in FG% (44.0%) significant increase or almost a percentage point
16th in 3pt % (34.0%)--> 21st in 3pt% (33.5%) small drop of a half of one percentage point

we've gotten better at rebounding per game, steals, point differential and FG%
we've stayed basically the same in opp. 3pt%, blocks per game, opponent ppg, assists per game and assist differential
we've dropped in three point% and opponent FG%

TheBaron · 01-24-2005, 06:25 PM

December 12th, 2004

1st in opp. 3pt% (29.6%)
2nd in the league in team RPG
4th in overall opp. FG% (42.4%)
5th in the NBA in steals per game (8.86)
6th in point differential
10th in blocked shots per game (5.72bpg)
12th in opponent ppg (94.9ppg)
30th (last) in the league in apg (17.68)
27th assist differential (outassisted by 3.45apg)
20th in FG% (43.2%)
16th in 3pt % (34.0%)
21st in 3pt% (33.5%)

January 4th, 2005

1st in opp. 3pt% (29.6%)
1st in the league in team RPG
8th in overall opp. FG% (43.2%)
2nd in the NBA in steals per game (9.20)
4th in point differential (+5.76)
9th in blocked shots per game (5.70bpg)
12th in opponent ppg (95.10ppg)
30th in the league in apg (18.30apg)
27th in assist differential (outassisted by 3.23apg)
15th in FG% (44.0%)
21st in 3pt% (33.5%)

January 24th

1st in opp. 3pt% (30.8%)
3rd in the league at RPG (44.02)
19th in opp. FG% (45.1%)
3rd in the league in steals per game (8.64)
3rd in point differential (+6.30)
9th in BPG (5.56bpg)
15th in the league opp. ppg (96.46)
29th in the league in apg (18.35)
27th in assist differential (-3.53)
12th in the league in FG% (45.1%)
10th in 3pt FG% (35.8%)

We remain the top team at defending the three
Opponent FG% has gotten worse and worse. 42.4%->43.2%->45.1%
fewer steals since Daniels has gone out, but still good
point differential has increased significantly in every period
assists per game are still low but have gone up a little in every period.
FG% has gone up in every period. 43.2%->44.0%->45.1%
We jumped from 21st place in 3pt FG% to 10th during this last period. (33.5%->35.8%)

what the numbers say
We NEED to get our defense back on line. We are shooting the same percentage as our opponents, so we are winning from three and in other ways (fewer TOs, etc)

Our steals are excellent. More play by Harris and Daniels' return will help that even more.

Our scoring has improved quite a bit.

still need to work on passing.

Pongo · 01-25-2005, 02:07 PM

Opp fg% is 43.5, not 45.1

u2sarajevo · 01-25-2005, 02:12 PM

With Josh Howard having back spasms and Dampier hobbled...... our Defense is going to suffer.