Fin is our MVP

[Hales233]

I just wanted to reiterate that for those who may have somehow missed the Sacramento series. Finley is clearly our leader and #1 option in tight games, until others prove they can and WANT to step up in the 4th quarter. Mike can't do it all by himself, he needs somebody else to step it up.

[TheKid]

LOL Hales........

You are about to be berated for saying this.

[Murphy3]

hales..
i'm not going to knock fin.

he played a decent series but like pretty much everyone else on the team, he played poorly down the stretch in some very critical times during the series.

if you're going to base it on 5 games, well, i guess you could come up with this
the mavs have no leader or MVP

however, basing it off a 5 game stretch where arguably no mav played well in the clutch..
well, it makes little sense

[NYMavFan]

I agree with Hales on this one. As of now, Finley is still the emotional leader of the team, and the only one who really came to play in the Sac series. One thing that I liked is that he took the ball to the hole much more during this series than he had been doing all season--let's hope he works on his slashing over the summer and keeps it up next season.

As for the future, though, I think Dirk will eventually become the undisputed leader of the franchise. This is all dependent on him learning to play some D, of course...

[Murphy3]

well, it's safe to say that both of you are in the minority.
maybe not with the few people that will respond to this thread, but in general, without a doubt

[Hales233]

how can you not agree murph? until dirk learns to nut up in big games fin will always be the main man.

don't get me wrong, i really like dirk a lot, i just think you and many others have vastly overrated him at this stage of his career. I think given another year or two he can be a top 5 player in this league, but right now he's not there...not even close...probably 9 or 10.

[Murphy3]

to be honest, fin didn't nut up in crunch time the majority of the sacramento series.. dirk didn't in some games either
both dirk and fin have been clutch so don't give me that b.s.

[Murphy3]

fin played a pretty good series, but it would be rather easy to break down two of the last three games in clutch time to show how fin didn't come up big..in fact, played rather poorly in the clutch.. same for dirk in a couple of those games

[Hales233]

murphy, let's keep this civil...please calm down...it's my opinion....you have yours...but you don't have to call mine BS. I respect yours, you respect mine. Period.

I don't appreciate being told my opinions are BS...it's the way I feel.

[kg_veteran]

If you say that Finley is the team's emotional leader, I don't necessarily disagree with that.

I also think it's fair to say that Finley is AN option in tight games down the stretch. The Mavericks haven't necessarily designated or used one player as the "go-to guy." They tend to prefer putting several guys on the floor with the ability to hit a big shot, so I don't think you can say that Finley (or Nowitzki or Nash, for that matter) are the "No. 1 option" in the clutch. Now, as for who SHOULD be the go-to guy, that has been the subject of much debate on this board...

One thing is for certain, though: Finley, Nowitzki, AND Nash all performed poorly down the stretch in Game 4, and that's what ultimately cost the Mavs this series, or at least shortened it to 5 games.

[Hales233]

Webber proved why he is better than Dirk in those games murph...whether you like it or not, Dirk played BAD and was dominated.

That's the Truth, and as Paul Pierce has shown us, sometimes The Truth Hurts!!!

GO Pierce #34

[seelenjaeger]

sorry, you might be right concerning Finley beeing the guy who showed up at all in the Sac-To series, but I don´t agree on Webber outplaying Dirk by far.

to me, the series showed that Webber isn´t much of a superstar - he wasn´t even able to outplay an underperforming Dirk, and was in foul trouble most of the time

the guards won the series for the Kings - if they didnt do what they did, webber would have been the losing leader with the fine numbers once again

[Hales233]

seelen webber put up solid numbers...it's not his fault Bibby and Jackson proved why they are far superior to Nash.

damn, you guys won't give CWebb any love...if he loses, he's the goat...and if he wins, it's only because other people stepped up, and had nothing to do with his play.

[kg_veteran]

<< how can you not agree murph? until dirk learns to nut up in big games fin will always be the main man.

don't get me wrong, i really like dirk a lot, i just think you and many others have vasly overrated him at this stage of his career. I think given another year or two he can be a top 5 player in this league, but right now he's not there...not even close...probably 9 or 10. >>



Hales, I think that each member of the Big Three failed to &quot;nut up&quot; in clutch situations in the Sacramento series. That's part of the growing pains of becoming a title contender and of each player maturing, unfortunately. To pin it solely on Dirk OR Finley at this point is not just unfair, it's not accurate.

I thought after the Minnesota series that Dirk was a Top 5 guy, but I realize now that I got caught up in the amazing performance and overlooked reality. He's a Top 10 guy, but not quite ready to break into the Top 5. He'll certainly get there, he's just not there yet.

[seelenjaeger]

it´s not webbers fault that bibby and jackson lit it up ... but webber wasn´t there when they won their games, that´s the problem ... he was putting up very fine numbers, still the kings would have lost most of his sweet-number games ...

webber is a very good and nice player, but i´ve not seen a series where he decided anything

[Hales233]

&lt;&lt;I thought after the Minnesota series that Dirk was a Top 5 guy, but I realize now that I got caught up in the amazing performance and overlooked reality. He's a Top 10 guy, but not quite ready to break into the Top 5. He'll certainly get there, he's just not there yet.&gt;&gt;

A lot of people are in the same boat with you there...unlike me, who said he was never a Top 5'er.

[kg_veteran]

Hales - Gotta disagree with you about Webber. He played pretty well, but he certainly didn't dominate Dirk, and I'm not sure he even outplayed him.

He was in foul trouble every single game, and he made a number of mental errors that would have (and will) cost him playing against the Lakers.

The Sacramento guards won the series for them. I'm not ready to say that Bibby and Jackson are far superior to Nash, but I readily admit that Bibby outplayed Nash and Jackson outplayed Van Exel in the series.

I think it should also be pointed out that Bibby and Jackson had a lot more defensive help on their man than Nash and Van Exel had on theirs.

[kg_veteran]

<< &lt;&lt;I thought after the Minnesota series that Dirk was a Top 5 guy, but I realize now that I got caught up in the amazing performance and overlooked reality. He's a Top 10 guy, but not quite ready to break into the Top 5. He'll certainly get there, he's just not there yet.&gt;&gt;

A lot of people are in the same boat with you there...unlike me, who said he was never a Top 5'er. >>



Nowitzki is 2nd Team All-NBA, so it doesn't take a genius to figure out that he's Top 10. If you'd like to toot your own horn, however, go right ahead...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Murphy3]

there were poor performances by dirk, fin, nash, and nve down the stretch in games 3, 4, and 5

no, each didn't play poorly in every game down the stretch, but none can come out of the series and think they actually played well when it counted most

[TheKid]

I didn't want to chime in on this thread but I have to..

&lt;&lt;to me, the series showed that Webber isn´t much of a superstar - he wasn´t even able to outplay an underperforming Dirk, and was in foul trouble most of the time&gt;&gt;

Now I didn't like Webber crying like a baby which he did the ENTIRE series, BUT, he stepped up in superstar form. Now this I do know, this is all bias eyes, Webber played significantly better than Dirk with the exception of ONE game. Even the first game he spent the majority of the time on the bench and he put up 20 and 10. Now I don't like Webber because all he does is cry, and I like Dirk better than him and I personally think Dirk is a better player, BUT Webber outplayed him this series fella's we can say whatever we want, look at the numbers, look at the games, he outplayed Dirk. Him being in foul trouble says something different to me. It says he was TRYING to play defense something NONE of our players did.

Game 4 I'll have to agree that there was not ONE player on the Mavs who didn't F... up down the stretch! ALL OF THEM DID!!!! Today I'm REALLY pissed off because I should be watching Game 6 tonight, instead I won't because all of them (Especially the big three) froze down the stretch.

However getting back to Hales point. It's opinion, and that's actually the beauty of this team. This series it's obvious Fin was the most consistent, I don't think anyone would dispute that but as I was saying the beauty of this team is we have so many effective players that you can CHOOSE throughout different stretches of the year or game for that matter who has been most valuable. That's why I DO NOT want to see the core of this team break up because how many teams has so many people that can literally carry their team?

[Murphy3]

actually, dirk outplayed webber in 2 games, ...game 2 and game 5.

the numbers are close in game 2, but dirk was so dominant in the 4th that he easily gets the nod..

but yes, webber had a better series than dirk overall

and i agree, thekid, ...i'd like to see the core 3 and lafrentz stick around

[Mavs4Fin]

exactly what i have been saying, dirk is a great talent but he has to step up in games, especially playoff games. missing that layup, i mean that was bad, really bad. fin should have taken that last shot, and should be looked for to take most last shots in my opinion.

[TheKid]

Well I wouldn't say Dirk outplayed Webber that game, I'll say he had a better fourth quarter, but it's hard for me to say he outplayed him. However I'm looking at it overall, and I think on a whole Webber got the better of him. Atleast it seems to me with the exception of game 5, every other game overall Webber outplayed Dirk, in my opinion.

Also I will say this, the reason why I think this team doesn't have a clear cut &quot;MVP&quot; is because all of our players give so many other things.

For instance.. Dirk is clearly our leading scorer, our best scorer and rebounder, however he's NOT our best defender. The team runs the best when Nash is in control, take him off the floor things don't run as smoothely, so some people have an argument that without Nash we wouldn't be one of the leading scoring teams in the NBA. Fin gives us a calm and confidence. Something about when he was out, I can't explain it but it was a surprise to ME we did so well and it was like I sweated through all those close games, but something about when he's on the floor at the end, even if they don't go to him, for some reason he just gives the team a sense of stability that they would miss without him. I could go down the list with other players but I won't. That's why that MVP tag for this team is volatile. However when the team has their banquet and if Dirk, Nash or Fin were to be named MVP, I could understand how any one of them could get it personally. Dirk will get it, but I could understand if one of the other ones got it too.

[Murphy3]

thekid,..i don't have a problem with someone saying nash or fin is the MVP..
however, i do have problem when someone says &quot;look what happened in the sacramento series&quot;..
you can't use that series to back up anything you're saying in favor of dirk, fin, or nash..

they were all bad in key situations at one time or another... all had some bad games..

and thekid, dirk and webber pretty much matched stats in game 2 but dirk got his during the clutch..
8 points and 9 boards in the 4th

no problem saying he had the better game in game 2..

[TheKid]

I will agree 100% on that one. It was the same stance I had last year when people were dogging Fin for his series against San Antonio... I said that then you couldn't judge on one series and I'll say it again. I would NEVER judge Dirk on that series. Like I said, I personally think Webber played better in the series, but ask me if I was starting a team and I had to pick between those two, DIRK IN A HEART BEAT!

Also Mav4Fin, I see where you're coming from that I think alot of people pumped Dirk up so much that I think the pressure got to Dirk a little, but I don't think the pub was injust. Although I don't think you can judge him on a shot either, he missed a layup that doesn't matter. Ewing missed a layup against Indiana in 95 that would have sent them to the Western conference finals to play the Bulls. I will NEVER call Ewing a choke artist though. It happens for whatever reason but you can't judge on one game. If he makes that layup, you can't say he's the greatest player in the league either can you, so you have to keep it all in perspective.

[Murphy3]

there was a reason i didn't dog fin for his 1-17 performance against the spurs last year..because i knew he'd make me eat my words if i were to dog that game

it's amazing how willing people are to knee jerk

[Hales233]

&lt;&lt;I will NEVER call Ewing a choke artist though.&gt;&gt;

Ok, I'll settle for calling him a bum. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Mavs4Fin]

thekid, ewing also hit alot of game winners, and is a hall of famer. if everyone builds dirk up to be this star, then you're going to have to perform like a star, especially in crunch time. fin has hit more game winners than anyone on this team, the ball should be put in his hands every time in my opinion. dirk has not showed that he can hit the big shot like fin can imo. im not judging him on 1 shot, i am saying if he is this big star like everyone has him ticketed at, then perform like it especially in crunch time.

[kg_veteran]

<< thekid, ewing also hit alot of game winners, and is a hall of famer. if everyone builds dirk up to be this star, then you're going to have to perform like a star, especially in crunch time. fin has hit more game winners than anyone on this team, the ball should be put in his hands every time in my opinion. dirk has not showed that he can hit the big shot like fin can imo. im not judging him on 1 shot, i am saying if he is this big star like everyone has him ticketed at, then perform like it especially in crunch time. >>



Reggie Miller, the greatest clutch shooter playing today, airballed a chance to put his team up 2-1 in a series with the Nets, who are now in the Eastern Conference Finals. Does that mean Indiana wouldn't go back to him again in that situation, given the opportunity? No way. Likewise, I don't think a missed finger roll by Dirk in ONE GAME is gonna prevent the Mavs in the future from going to him with the game on the line.

[Mavs4Fin]

that was not the last time dirk has missed a shot, or made a bad play to wint he game. remember the laker game win horry knocked it off of his knee out of bounds? theres more, so what i am saying is go to fin, he has showed he can make the plays

[Hales233]

If you want to WIN, give the ball to FIN. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[Mavs4Fin]

couldnt have said it better myself Hales

[Epitome22]

Gee, who was it that nutted up for us that night when Fin took the reigns of the team and led us to victory with his great 1-17 shooting performance?

Oh wait, we didn't win that game. As sub par a series as Nowitzki had and as much as I hated him for it, I still take him over Finley as does practically everyone in the league.

[Epitome22]

<< If you want to WIN, give the ball to FIN. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] >>




But the Mavs lost, despite Finley playing above himself. does that mean if you want to win, give the ball to....somebody else?

[Murphy3]

amazing that some of you can even figure out how to turn a computer on.. let alone figure out how to spell AND type

[reeds]

I agree with you Hales. webber outplayed dirk, and Fin sure looked like the MVP to me in that series. Of course, I couldnt watch the Mavs all year like you guys did- but in crunch time- Fin was the Man. Dirk was not

[Murphy3]

reeds, can you come up with something during that series that would show that fin played well during the clutch?
how about game 5 where dirk had carried the mavs to within 1 with 8 straight points..

fin and nash combined to go 5 possessions in a row down the court either turning the ball over or putting up very tough, very bad shots. not exactly clutch.

game 4, more of the same in the closing minutes.. although dirk joined in as well..along with nash and nve

game 3, fin turned the ball over with less than 2 minutes in the game.. not exactly clutch.. although neither were dirk, nve, or nash.


if you can look at the sacramento series and say that fin or anyone else on the Mavs was &quot;clutch&quot;
well, i'll go ahead and say that anyone that says that is a liar... either that, if they actually believe it..well, you're actually much worse than a liar..

[SeomanSnowlock]

I'm more of an outsider to this board, but how could anyone look at the Sacramento series and think that any of the BIG THREEE played well during CRUNCH TIME. It was a comedy of errors by the BIG THREE and Nicky

[Mavs4Fin]

no need for the long descriptions murph, neither of those guys missed a layup that ultimately cost us the game and the series.

eptiome-san antonio was by far better than the mavs last year, and most knew we would lose the series, they were the better team. this year was different, this is a different team than last year. most people, including myself thought the mavs would beat sac in the series. fin didnt exactly play just about 48 minutes either, he sat before the game was over. it was dirk who was in the game, shooting at will in the 4th even though the game was over in the 3rd quarter.

[Murphy3]

i would love for you to come up with something..just one time to back up your opinions. Yet, i doubt that will ever happen