Gortat appears* bound for a team not named the Dallas Mavericks - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

BGMaverick9 · 07-02-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Caron Butler (first name that popped into my mind, not that Washington would necessarily be interested...)

But start there & work your way out - which teams are still looking to dump salary? Do they have anyone we want? Could they use the talents of Howard or Terry in compensation for losing the better player?

We're definitely looking for a #2 scorer if Josh or Jet get dealt, no exceptions...

If It's Josh I don't see why they would be interested, unless it's a total salary dump. It just creates the same logjam, just less money.

nowhereman · 07-02-2009, 10:41 PM

Well, I think something is to be said for Cleveland, SA, Houston, and Orlando all wanting him. Houston didn't offer him the full MLE, but those are some legit teams interested in him (not to mention Atlanta and Indy).

But yeah, at this point he is barely a rotation player. This absoutely must not be the biggest splash we make this year.

chumdawg · 07-02-2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

The notion that Gortat is automatically a hands down better option than Damp is patently absurd. We're talking about a guy who has played in 69 NBA games and has played 24+ minutes in a game SIX TIMES.

Looking into the future I have hopes for Gortat. We need a center to take over for Damp when he leaves. I'm not down on the signing. But the idea that people think so low of Damp that a center that has proven NOTHING in this league is automatically an upgrade boggles my mind.

And are YOU chastising ME for beating a dead horse? Really?

The notion that Damp will automatically be a hands-down better option than Gortat next year...may not be absurd, but also can't be proven, and may not even turn out to be the case. But evidently you have already made up your mind about it.

Claiming that Gortat has "proven NOTHING" is the same type of reasoning.

jthig32 · 07-02-2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The notion that Damp will automatically be a hands-down better option than Gortat next year...may not be absurd, but also can't be proven, and may not even turn out to be the case. But evidently you have already made up your mind about it.

Claiming that Gortat has "proven NOTHING" is the same type of reasoning.

I'm not necessarily claiming he will be. What I'm saying is that this signing should not elicit a reaction of "well, we've replaced Damp, he's no longer needed". That's putting way too much faith in a player that absolutely has not proven himself as a starting caliber player.

There is just no way, imo, that the Mavs are willing to go into the season with a Gortat/Hollins center rotation. I could be wrong, obviously, but I believe very strongly that I'm not.

So yes, the idea that the Mavs have acquired an upgrade over Damp, right now, in some people's eyes absolutely makes me want to slam my head against my desk.

eyedentifyme · 07-02-2009, 10:48 PM

Any chance the Mavs can still try to get Okafor/Diaw, Okafor/Radmanovic, Okafor/Wallace, or Okafor/Felton because an article showed the Bobcats owner is trying to sell the team?

dirno2000 · 07-02-2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyedentifyme

Any chance the Mavs can still try to get Okafor/Diaw, Okafor/Radmanovic, Okafor/Wallace, or Okafor/Felton because an article showed the Bobcats owner is trying to sell the team?

Maybe but one of the two potential owners assembled the team and may not be in such a hurry to tear it down.

chumdawg · 07-02-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not necessarily claiming he will be. What I'm saying is that this signing should not elicit a reaction of "well, we've replaced Damp, he's no longer needed". That's putting way too much faith in a player that absolutely has not proven himself as a starting caliber player.

There is just no way, imo, that the Mavs are willing to go into the season with a Gortat/Hollins center rotation. I could be wrong, obviously, but I believe very strongly that I'm not.

So yes, the idea that the Mavs have acquired an upgrade over Damp, right now, in some people's eyes absolutely makes me want to slam my head against my desk.

If he's not coming here to replace Damp, then he's coming here to back him up. Using the full MLE on a backup player *might* give one reason to bang head on desk.

Underdog · 07-02-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyedentifyme

Any chance the Mavs can still try to get Okafor/Diaw, Okafor/Radmanovic, Okafor/Wallace, or Okafor/Felton because an article showed the Bobcats owner is trying to sell the team?

I'd love to get Okafor/Felton, but we really need a starting shooting guard right now...

jthig32 · 07-02-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

If he's not coming here to replace Damp, then he's coming here to back him up. Using the full MLE on a backup player *might* give one reason to bang head on desk.

So they signed him for five years but their plan only involves next season?

He's coming here to be Damp's successor. He may very well start this season, but it would likely be because they promised him the starting spot when offering him the deal.

Again, I'm not saying he won't ever be a better player for this team than Damp was. Over the life of his contract I certainly hope he plays up to Damp's level and perhaps even beyond.

But it's highly unlikely that he's ready to be a Damp replacement *right now*.

chumdawg · 07-02-2009, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

But it's highly unlikely that he's ready to be a Damp replacement *right now*.

Evidently Damp is overrated as often as he is underrated. What does he do for you in the playoffs? At least this kid Gortat has one playoff skin on the wall. That's one more than Damp has, and with incredibly scant experience (as you point out), at that.

tcat075 · 07-02-2009, 11:22 PM

jthig32 · 07-02-2009, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Evidently Damp is overrated as often as he is underrated. What does he do for you in the playoffs? At least this kid Gortat has one playoff skin on the wall. That's one more than Damp has, and with incredibly scant experience (as you point out), at that.

What is the criteria for this *skin*? Gortat hasn't done anything in the playoffs at Damp hasn't done.

Underdog · 07-02-2009, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

What is the criteria for this *skin*? Gortat hasn't done anything in the playoffs at Damp hasn't done.

Damp actually got 1 game farther in the Finals...

I think both you & Chum are correct in each of your perspectives because Gortat is a complete roll of the dice - we have no clue what we're getting into here, negative or positive... He could be better than Damp or he could be a complete waste of time/money (and how soon either way?)

Cross your fingers!

Rhylan · 07-02-2009, 11:35 PM

Gortat is the white Jerome James.

Or Calvin Booth.

Rasho Nesterovic also comes to mind.

If this guy gets MLE for multiple years we're stupid.

jthig32 · 07-02-2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

(I think both you & Chum are correct in each of your perspectives because Gortat is a complete roll of the dice - we have no clue what we're getting into here...)

This is, essentially, all I'm saying. Let's be careful annointing this guy ready to be a starting center on a playoff team.

ESPECIALLY because the most important component of a center that plays next to Dirk is DEFENSE. I'm as excited as the next guy about possibly having a center on the court than can score (that's not the same height as our SF), but part of the reason Damp is underrated around here (imo) is the fact that most of his contributions come defensively, which is much harder to quantify.

It's going to take some time before we know what we have in this guy (assuming we get him at all).

chumdawg · 07-02-2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

What is the criteria for this *skin*? Gortat hasn't done anything in the playoffs at Damp hasn't done.

11 points and 15 boards, all the while being a completely unproven player. I could be wrong about Damp's stats, but when was the last time he put up 11 and 15 in a playoff game?

For that matter, Gortat stayed on the court for 40 minutes. When is the last time Damp played 40 minutes in a playoff game? Has he ever?

Underdog · 07-02-2009, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

11 points and 15 boards, all the while being a completely unproven player. I could be wrong about Damp's stats, but when was the last time he put up 11 and 15 in a playoff game?

For that matter, Gortat stayed on the court for 40 minutes. When is the last time Damp played 40 minutes in a playoff game? Has he ever?

All reasons to get excited - his upside could be tremendous...

aexchange · 07-02-2009, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhylan

Gortat is the white Jerome James.

Or Calvin Booth.

Rasho Nesterovic also comes to mind.

If this guy gets MLE for multiple years we're stupid.

The same thought also occurred to me.

Best case, this guy comes close to being Memet Okur.

Worst case, he's Jerome James, a guy who hit the lotto off one good playoff run. This has high bust potential written all over it.

jthig32 · 07-02-2009, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

11 points and 15 boards, all the while being a completely unproven player. I could be wrong about Damp's stats, but when was the last time he put up 11 and 15 in a playoff game?

For that matter, Gortat stayed on the court for 40 minutes. When is the last time Damp played 40 minutes in a playoff game? Has he ever?

Gortat's last (and only) 40 minutes playoff game happened exactly two nights after Damp's last 40 minutes playoff game. Damp put up a double/double in that game while contending with Tim Duncan. You could easily make the case that Damp's performance that night out shined Gortat's given the competition.

Anything else?

sike · 07-02-2009, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

We're definitely looking for a #2 scorer if Josh or Jet get dealt, no exceptions...

I want a better #2 scorer anyway....well actually, I want two #1 type scorers. Dirk + ______ ???

But I think we've effectively proven that Josh and JT are not consistent enough options to win this team a title. And perhaps, Dirk is not a consistently dominant enough to NOT have another #1 type guy at his side.

chumdawg · 07-02-2009, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Gortat's last (and only) 40 minutes playoff game happened exactly two nights after Damp's last 40 minutes playoff game. Damp put up a double/double in that game while contending with Tim Duncan. You could easily make the case that Damp's performance that night out shined Gortat's given the competition.

Anything else?

Damp manage a 40MP and a 38MP against the Spurs, giving him two games in ten (that's 20%, for the mathematically disinclined) that he managed to keep himself on the court for more than a mere 23 MPG. Why? If it wasn't for suckitude, look at the fouls given. When you give fouls out like candy, it may look like you are playing good defense, but the flip side of that is that you cann't keep it up for long.

Anyway...when Damp went for 40 he put up 10 and 11 and 11 and 12. The ENTIRE rest of the time he was pretty much non-existent. Against Denver, he was probably hurting the team more than he was helping. It is almost difficult to describe just how bad he was in that series. You hold Duncan up as proof of Damp's prowess. Evidently if Damp could play Duncan every time we would be good off with him. If he had to play Denver every time, he would be the worst player in the league.

So...yeah, that's what else.

badfish22 · 07-02-2009, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Gortat's last (and only) 40 minutes playoff game happened exactly two nights after Damp's last 40 minutes playoff game. Damp put up a double/double in that game while contending with Tim Duncan. You could easily make the case that Damp's performance that night out shined Gortat's given the competition.

Anything else?

I just instantly became a lot less excited about Gortat.

dude1394 · 07-02-2009, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not necessarily claiming he will be. What I'm saying is that this signing should not elicit a reaction of "well, we've replaced Damp, he's no longer needed". That's putting way too much faith in a player that absolutely has not proven himself as a starting caliber player.

There is just no way, imo, that the Mavs are willing to go into the season with a Gortat/Hollins center rotation. I could be wrong, obviously, but I believe very strongly that I'm not.

So yes, the idea that the Mavs have acquired an upgrade over Damp, right now, in some people's eyes absolutely makes me want to slam my head against my desk.

If moving damp gets them what they need at the 2 then they have to do it. They have to swing for it and it's not that big of a swing. Damp couldn't stay on the floor in many,many games.

jthig32 · 07-02-2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Damp manage a 40MP and a 38MP against the Spurs, giving him two games in ten (that's 20%, for the mathematically disinclined) that he managed to keep himself on the court for more than a mere 23 MPG. Why? If it wasn't for suckitude, look at the fouls given. When you give fouls out like candy, it may look like you are playing good defense, but the flip side of that is that you cann't keep it up for long.

Anyway...when Damp went for 40 he put up 10 and 11 and 11 and 12. The ENTIRE rest of the time he was pretty much non-existent. Against Denver, he was probably hurting the team more than he was helping. It is almost difficult to describe just how bad he was in that series. You hold Duncan up as proof of Damp's prowess. Evidently if Damp could play Duncan every time we would be good off with him. If he had to play Denver every time, he would be the worst player in the league.

So...yeah, that's what else.

And?

Look you brought up the double/double and the minutes played. I simply answered your questions and brought a little factual evidence to the discussion.

I don't think anyone ever made the case that Damp is all-NBA quality. I know I certainly didn't. So I'm not really sure what you're getting at with your post above.

If you expect Gortat to be putting up 11 and 15 on a nightly basis in any matchup in the playoffs AND defend the paint then prepare to be disappointed.

Again, I am NOT saying Gortat will not be a successful rotation player. I'm not even saying it's out of the question that he's a better player than Damp next season. All I've said all along is that the notion that he's automatically an upgrade over Damp and ready to start and play 30+ minutes a night is ridiculous.

That's not even much of a limb to go out on, either. There are people in this thread comparing Gortat to Calvin Booth for goodness sake. Am I really saying anything that off the wall?

Windmill360 · 07-02-2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Damp put up a double/double in that game while contending with Tim Duncan.
Anything else?

Really? Not Samuel Dalambert?

eyedentifyme · 07-02-2009, 11:58 PM

Gortat looks good in this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuxwxBQNSQk
A lot teams use center by committee anyways, if push comes to shove, Hollins and Singleton should use all 12 of their fouls so that in crunch time, Gortat can finish the game.

Windmill360 · 07-02-2009, 11:58 PM

Gortat can run.

jthig32 · 07-02-2009, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

If moving damp gets them what they need at the 2 then they have to do it. They have to swing for it and it's not that big of a swing. Damp couldn't stay on the floor in many,many games.

If they have a chance to obtain a legitimate starting shooting guard I'm sure they will. But you better hope that either Gortat is ready for an incredible leap in playing time or that Damp comes back after being cut.

I still expect that Damp will be around until at least the all star break. It makes a lot of sense. You have a young center that needs a safety net, and Damp's contract only gets more valuable the longer you wait. So waiting to trade him makes sense unless the perfect deal comes along.

CadBane · 07-02-2009, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

The same thought also occurred to me.

Best case, this guy comes close to being Memet Okur.

Worst case, he's Jerome James, a guy who hit the lotto off one good playoff run. This has high bust potential written all over it.

Maybe I'm not following....but Gortat is absolutely NOTHING like Okur in any respect...so why the comparison?

jthig32 · 07-02-2009, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windmill360

Really? Not Samuel Dalambert?

?

chumdawg · 07-03-2009, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Again, I am NOT saying Gortat will not be a successful rotation player. I'm not even saying it's out of the question that he's a better player than Damp next season.

Whoa, cowboy. A minute ago you were banging your head against a hard surface.

Quote:

There are people in this thread comparing Gortat to Calvin Booth for goodness sake. Am I really saying anything that off the wall?

You want to throw your lot in with that?

aexchange · 07-03-2009, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Maybe I'm not following....but Gortat is absolutely NOTHING like Okur in any respect...so why the comparison?

gortat isnt anything like james either.

the point of the comparison was that like okur who was relatively overhyped in relation to his production in detroit, we'll either get something at best that pretty serviceable, or at worst is going to be a horrendous personnel decision.

jthig32 · 07-03-2009, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Whoa, cowboy. A minute ago you were banging your head against a hard surface.

*sigh*

Do you not see a distinction between "Gortat could possibly surpass Damp as a player at some point next season" and "Well at least Gortat's better than that scrub Dampier"?????

sike · 07-03-2009, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I still expect that Damp will be around until at least the all star break. It makes a lot of sense. You have a young center that needs a safety net, and Damp's contract only gets more valuable the longer you wait. So waiting to trade him makes sense unless the perfect deal comes along.

this reasoning makes perfect sense...

...which is the exact reason it cannot be in line with our FO.

jthig32 · 07-03-2009, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You want to throw your lot in with that?

No. There's simply not enough of a body of work to make that claim yet.

Windmill360 · 07-03-2009, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

?

Gortats 15/11 game was against the sixers.

CadBane · 07-03-2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

gortat isnt anything like james either.

the point of the comparison was that like okur who was relatively overhyped in relation to his production in detroit, we'll either get something at best that pretty serviceable, or at worst is going to be a horrendous personnel decision.

Ah, I see. I never got the impression that Okur got a lot of hype back when he was with Detroit. Although I would say he was good off the bench with them, not a one hit wonder like Jerome James.

Also, I don't see Gortat as a bust. EVERY TIME the man got a start/lots of minutes due to Howard being injured/suspended/foul trouble ect., he produced big time. He's athletic, great hops, great rebounder, can run the floor, can finish, good defender (especially weakside). I don't see him as a J. James who was overhyped bc he scored in the post decently vs. SA in the playoffs, rd. 1 mind you. Gortat is for real.

jthig32 · 07-03-2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windmill360

Gortats 15/11 game was against the sixers.

This doesn't really clarify anything for me. I didn't say it wasn't.

sike · 07-03-2009, 12:07 AM

I've seen enough of Gortat in the past 20 minutes on youtube to KNOW he is already way better than Damp at finishing around the rim and simply at catching the ball in general.

But Damp is a dang fine rebounder and defender of the larger/slowish type 5s.

Windmill360 · 07-03-2009, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

This doesn't really clarify anything for me. I didn't say it wasn't.

Oh well then I was comparing Duncan with Dalambert.