The"Crap, it didn't happen..but it was awesome to think of" thread - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mavs777 · 12-10-2011, 01:17 AM

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...medium=twitter

Quote:

Orlando PR man Joel Glass calls to inform that D. Howard’s agent now has permission to speak w/ Lakers, Nets, & Mavs about possible trade.

Glass was clear that this permission was from here “going forward,” not previously.

nowhereman · 12-10-2011, 01:19 AM

It's not going to happen but it's awesome to think of

twelli · 12-10-2011, 01:23 AM

What would it take. Dirk?

nowhereman · 12-10-2011, 01:28 AM

Are you asking Dirk what it would take?

Because he'd tell you: it's not going to happen, but it's awesome to think of

OneLove22 · 12-10-2011, 02:29 AM

Somehow though we are still in the discussion and they granted Dwight to speak with us.

Is a 3 team trade possible (NY?) ? Who could we possibly trade?

I would guess the Magic want Howard out of the East though so they would prefer us or LA over the Nets.

Budapest Maverick · 12-10-2011, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twelli

What would it take. Dirk?

No, even if we would decide to trade Dirk (we never would, obviously) we'd probably first have to trade him for young players, and picks. We really don't have ANYTHING the Magic would want. We don't have a single valuable trade chip at the moment.

Zki41 · 12-10-2011, 06:14 AM

Forgive me because I am not too familiar with the rules, but would it be possible to use our trade exception from Chandler + picks + roddy/jones/brewer/mahinmi to acquire Dwight?

Budapest Maverick · 12-10-2011, 06:41 AM

I think it would be possible, but since Chandler is New-York bound... On a second thought about the trade... We could eat up all of their terrible contracts, and give them a huge TPE, plus Roddy and draft picks (not really great draft picks though). It's maybe not totally impossible.

aexchange · 12-10-2011, 09:06 AM

Any deal for Howard starts with some combination of Terry, Roddy B, Fernandez, and draft picks for Howard and a trade exception going to Orlando for Hedo.

This is the most likely deal as it gives Orlando the most cap space and allows them to free themselves of a terrible contract in Hedo. Don't see much chance in this happening, but one can dream.

jthig32 · 12-10-2011, 09:47 AM

This is why we should all hope that the Lakers trade for Chris Paul. It takes our tiny chances and makes them a tiny bit better.

deamon · 12-10-2011, 10:00 AM

LAL wants Paul and Howard.

BGMaverick9 · 12-10-2011, 10:04 AM

Fegan does have clients that are currently on the Mavs or have passed through, so the organization should have a pretty good connection with him. I'm not saying that puts them right at the top of the list, but it certainly doesn't hurt.

EricaLubarsky · 12-10-2011, 10:23 AM

A front court of Howard, dirk and Marion is a scary-good lineup. Prib not going to happen but it's exciting to think about. I'd prefer a pg but Howard and dirk may help draw top tier talent next year afte Kidd retires.

If he demands a trade or promises to walk next year I imagine Orlando would look to get as much value as possible. We have picks, a lot of TPE and a couple of decent youngins. Other than low 1st rounders, cash and TPE savings we don't have much but maybe enough

jthig32 · 12-10-2011, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

This is why we should all hope that the Lakers trade for Chris Paul. It takes our tiny chances and makes them a tiny bit better.

Although, the Paul trade in its original form would have given LA a huge trade exception as well. Unless the rumors of Okafor going to LA were true.

Let's hope the reworked deal includes more salary going back to LA.

And let's hope NJ signs Nene.

EricaLubarsky · 12-10-2011, 10:32 AM

Howard
Nene
Okafor

Some quality bigs that may be available and we can always waive Haywood too so we don't have to worry about 30mill for two centers. Lots of flexibility, just not a lot of trade value. Our firsts aren't lottery, and not a lot of young talent, but we have a wily owner

sefant77 · 12-10-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Although, the Paul trade in its original form would have given LA a huge trade exception as well. Unless the rumors of Okafor going to LA were true.

Let's hope the reworked deal includes more salary going back to LA.

And let's hope NJ signs Nene.

And i hope its not Okafor going back! he has 3/40 left but for me he is with Dwight and Chandler the best defensive center in the league. With Paul/Bryant he is probably even a better fit than Bynum...

So the Lakers would just slightly downgrade center.

I hope its Ariza the Lakers have to take back and Okafor stays in NO, sometjhing like that:
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=88vvtu7

The Hornets can choose to keep Martin/Okafor/Bynum or trade them with their two year contracts...

FINtastic · 12-10-2011, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

Any deal for Howard starts with some combination of Terry, Roddy B, Fernandez, and draft picks for Howard and a trade exception going to Orlando for Hedo.

This is the most likely deal as it gives Orlando the most cap space and allows them to free themselves of a terrible contract in Hedo. Don't see much chance in this happening, but one can dream.

I think saying you don't see much chance is being generous because I see zero chance to be honest. If you let Tyson Chandler walk because you think overpaying him $3 million/year kills your financial flexibility, why does overpaying Turkoglu $5 million-$6 million a year in order to land Howard make sense? Because these 6 players alone are going to cost you $65 million next year (and that's being conservative and assuming Howard only resigns for $20 million):

-Dirk
-Howard
-Turkoglu
-Marion
-Brewer
-Dojo

That's after amnestying Haywood, trading Roddy, trading/not extending a qualifying a offer to Rudy, trady/not re-signing JET, not re-signing Kidd, and not re-signing Mahinmi.

That puts you at $65 million already, and we haven't even gotten to the point where we are filling the rest of the roster. Brandan Wright has a team option that I think floats around $1 million, which I think you would be stupid not to take at that point. It sounds like Carter has a multi-year deal, but I'm not sure what it will be for so he'd probably be on your roster at that point, but I'm not going to speculate at what price. So seems to me like you are going to be stuck handing out minimum contracts after those 8 guys.

Are we ready to go to war with that?

jthig32 · 12-10-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I think saying you don't see much chance is being generous because I see zero chance to be honest. If you let Tyson Chandler walk because you think overpaying him $3 million/year kills your financial flexibility, why does overpaying Turkoglu $5 million-$6 million a year in order to land Howard make sense? Because these 6 players alone are going to cost you $65 million next year (and that's being conservative and assuming Howard only resigns for $20 million):

-Dirk
-Howard
-Turkoglu
-Marion
-Brewer
-Dominique

That's after amnestying Haywood, trading Roddy, trading/not extending a qualifying a offer to Rudy, trady/not re-signing JET, not re-signing Kidd, and not re-signing Mahinmi.

That puts you at $65 million already, and we haven't even gotten to the point where we are filling the rest of the roster. Brandan Wright has a team option that I think floats around $1 million, which I think you would be stupid not to take at that point. It sounds like Carter has a multi-year deal, but I'm not sure what it will be for so he'd probably be on your roster at that point, but I'm not going to speculate at what price. So seems to me like you are going to be stuck handing out minimum contracts after those 8 guys.

Are we ready to go to war with that?

????

Dude if you have a chance to add a top five player in the NBA (and many, MANY people would argue the 2nd best player), you do it.

Why would you not re-sign Kidd or anyone else that's not traded?

You'd basically plug Howard and Turkoglu into whatever is left on your roster and you do freaking backflips of joy.

The line of veterans to play with Dwight and Dirk would be a mile long. You're talking about one of the greatest front court pairings in the history of the NBA.

I'm very confused by your stance here.

Jon Avalon · 12-10-2011, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

The line of veterans to play with Dwight and Dirk would be a mile long. You're talking about one of the greatest front court pairings in the history of the NBA.
.

^^ BINGO!

I want to see Dwight and Dirk paired up! Come on Cubes DO IT! Whatever it takes!

FINtastic · 12-10-2011, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

????

Dude if you have a chance to add a top five player in the NBA (and many, MANY people would argue the 2nd best player), you do it.

Why would you not re-sign Kidd or anyone else that's not traded?

You'd basically plug Howard and Turkoglu into whatever is left on your roster and you do freaking backflips of joy.

The line of veterans to play with Dwight and Dirk would be a mile long. You're talking about one of the greatest front court pairings in the history of the NBA.

I'm very confused.

How does it make sense if you can't build a roster around it? For example, how is that going to put you above the Heat, who if we want to play the fantasy basketball game you've seem to prey to, already have 2 of the best 3 players in the NBA, and a much better 3rd player than you're going to hope to find with that roster already hamstrung financially?

Is Kidd coming back for a veteran minimum? Because he's making 8 million/year on his current deal, and I don't see why I should automatically assume he would go all the way to a $1 million contract (otherwise I would have put him in there, but the whole purpose of that previous post was to strip the roster to the bare minimum and see where that left you in terms of the cap).

And why are all the veterans lining up to play with Dirk and Howard, and not Wade and Lebron? Or Paul and Kobe? Or Amare, Melo, and Chandler? Or whatever the next "Super Team" is that gets assembled? Or maybe that just want to play for a team like the Thunder? The assumption that we get our pick of the "cheap veteran" litter is an extremely tenuous one at best.

I never said I'd turn down this deal (because I wouldn't due to the seeming lack of better options at this point), I'm just saying I don't really see it putting us over the top and like you argued in the Chandler thread, it's going to kill your chances to improve much beyond that because you're financially tied down. And you're going to be much moreso than you ever would be paying $15 mil/year for Chandler.

And this is all pinning on our hopes on the very, very long shot that Orlando accepts that deal. And let's be honest here, they're going to get offered better deals. I can't see why this deal makes more sense than a straight up trade for Andrew Bynum.

So again we're pinning our odds on a very, very long shot that doesn't quite seem to put us over the top.

BGMaverick9 · 12-10-2011, 11:31 AM

Even if the Howard angle doesn't work out, they'll be able to have some pretty good flexibility with that TPE...it could land some nice stuff.

jthig32 · 12-10-2011, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

How does it make sense if you can't build a roster around it? For example, how is that going to put you above the Heat, who if we want to play the fantasy basketball game you've seem to prey to, already have 2 of the best 3 players in the NBA, and a much better 3rd player than you're going to hope to find with that roster already hamstrung financially?

Is Kidd coming back for a veteran minimum? Because he's making 8 million/year on his current deal, and I don't see why I should automatically assume he would go all the way to a $1 million contract (otherwise I would have put him in there, but the whole purpose of that previous post was to strip the roster to the bare minimum and see where that left you in terms of the cap).

And why are all the veterans lining up to play with Dirk and Howard, and not Wade and Lebron? Or Paul and Kobe? Or Amare, Melo, and Chandler? Or whatever the next "Super Team" is that gets assembled? Or maybe that just want to play for a team like the Thunder. The assumption that we get our pick of the "cheap veteran" litter is a tenuous one.

I never said I'd turn down this deal (because I wouldn't due to the seeming lack of better options at this point), I'm just saying I don't really see it putting us over the top and like you argued in the Chandler thread, it's going to kill your chances to improve much beyond that because you're financially tied down. And you're going to be much moreso than you ever would be paying $15 mil/year for Chandler.

And this is all pinning on our hopes on the very, very long shot that Orlando accepts that deal. And let's be honest here, they're going to get offered better deals. I can't see why this deal makes more sense than a straight up trade for Andrew Bynum.

So again we're pinning our odds on a very, very long shot that doesn't quite seem to put us over the top.

First of all, we're not "pinning our odds" on anything.

Secondly, no one is disputing the unlikeliness of this happening.

Third, I think you're missing a few points.

1. I was worried about being financially tied down because of Chandler. I'll take the opportunity to be tied down with Dwight Howard any time you want. If you have Dwight Howard, you've accomplished what you needed the financial flexibility for. Now you need complimentary pieces, which are easier to obtain.

2. Why are you trying to strip the roster? If you have Dwight Howard you want to retain Kidd. You have bird rights on him, give him what he wants. The point of possibly stripping the roster is to lure a superstar. If you HAVE the super star, no need to strip anything.

You wanted us to retain Chandler because you wanted us to stay competitive, and yet you're not sure how you'd feel about us adding Howard to this mix? I'm again very confused.

oilfieldtrash · 12-10-2011, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Even if the Howard angle doesn't work out, they'll be able to have some pretty good flexibility with that TPE...it could land some nice stuff.

Like what? Dallas needs a legit big man. They just let the anchor of their championship team walk. Any championship level big men out there?

Freaking mavs. Chasing players like Howard, Williams, CP3 and letting their championship team go.

deamon · 12-10-2011, 11:40 AM

There is Howard as best at C, and far, far, far behind him someone at the 2nd place at C in this league.
Howard-Nowitzki, DO IT!

sefant77 · 12-10-2011, 11:46 AM

Looks like the Nets raised the Nene offer to 4/64...

They couldnt take a Dwight/Hedo combo in a trade anymore. And they wouldnt have cap for Dwight next summer...

FINtastic · 12-10-2011, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

First of all, we're not "pinning our odds" on anything.

Secondly, no one is disputing the unlikeliness of this happening.

Third, I think you're missing a few points.

1. I was worried about being financially tied down because of Chandler. I'll take the opportunity to be tied down with Dwight Howard any time you want. If you have Dwight Howard, you've accomplished what you needed the financial flexibility for. Now you need complimentary pieces, which are easier to obtain.

2. Why are you trying to strip the roster? If you have Dwight Howard you want to retain Kidd. You have bird rights on him, give him what he wants. The point of possibly stripping the roster is to lure a superstar. If you HAVE the super star, no need to strip anything.

You wanted us to retain Chandler because you wanted us to stay competitive, and yet you're not sure how you'd feel about us adding Howard to this mix? I'm again very confused.

Yeah, but I've never said I cared about being financially tied down by Howard, who is worth every penny he'll get paid and then some. However, we're also getting Hedo under this scenario, which is going to be painful to swallow because he's nowhere near being worth the $11.4 million he's owed next year. But the fact of the matter is between Dirk, Howard, and Hedo, we're already well over $50 million in salary, and adding in Marion makes puts you at $60 million and you've only filled out your front court (albeit very nicely).

Now maybe this is due to my lack of knowledge about this new CBA so feel free to help me out with following items:

1) What is the salary cap (likely to be) set at next year?
2) Where does the luxury tax threshold start? I've googled around and the best I can see is that it's roughly $70 mil but I can't get a firm answer on that one. If that's the case we are going to be over that just filling out the rest of the roster spots with veteran minimum contracts.
3) How far is Cuban willing to go into that luxury tax to re-sign his veterans if they aren't willing to just play for the bare minimum? Kidd makes sense as a re-sign. Maybe Mahinmi as well. I'm not sure who else you think I'm leaving out (Terry likely gets traded in this scenario anyways because he's one of the few pieces you could include to make salaries match).

Probably best if we get those things established before we go much further.

dalger · 12-10-2011, 11:57 AM

The moves that we're talking about right now (TPE for Tyson, Nene to NJ, Paul to LA) could indeed put us in a much better situation to land Howard.

As an aside, we've just come out of a lockout and already see owners throw $15+ million at guys like Chandler and Nene for multi-year contracts...

EricaLubarsky · 12-10-2011, 11:58 AM

Howard, dirk and Marion wouldn't just be "nice"-- they'd be the best frontcourt in nba history.

CapitanObvious · 12-10-2011, 12:00 PM

Not gonna happen. (But secretly hoping it would)

sefant77 · 12-10-2011, 12:04 PM

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
Mavs' first swipe, I'm told, will be trying to do S-and-T w/Sacramento for Dalembert by using big trade exception from Tyson Chandler deal

I hope just after Dwight&Hedo failed...

EricaLubarsky · 12-10-2011, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
Mavs' first swipe, I'm told, will be trying to do S-and-T w/Sacramento for Dalembert by using big trade exception from Tyson Chandler deal

I hope just after Dwight&Hedo failed...

Ewwww dalembert is trash

jthig32 · 12-10-2011, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

1) What is the salary cap (likely to be) set at next year?
2) Where does the luxury tax threshold start? I've googled around and the best I can see is that it's roughly $70 mil but I can't get a firm answer on that one. If that's the case we are going to be over that just filling out the rest of the roster spots with veteran minimum contracts.
3) How far is Cuban willing to go into that luxury tax to re-sign his veterans if they aren't willing to just play for the bare minimum? Kidd makes sense as a re-sign. Maybe Mahinmi as well. I'm not sure who else you think I'm leaving out (Terry likely gets traded in this scenario anyways because he's one of the few pieces you could include to make salaries match).

Probably best if we get those things established before we go much further.

Next year the salary cap will be no less than $58, LT no less than $70. Those numbers should start going up as revenue increases, but will probably be around those figures next year.

If you're going to pay two superstars, you're going to have to pay luxury tax. So if they acquire Howard you can assume Cubes is willing to foot the bill. Not an unlimited bill, but a bill.

In a hypothetical, you could send Haywood somewhere for trade assets, send those assets along with Roddy, Jet, and maybe someone line Rudy. (For everyone reading, I realize this is far fetched, just setting up a hypothetical for looking at numbers).

That would leave you with (rough estimate):

Dirk - 20Mil
Dwight - 20Mil
Hedo - 11Mil
Marion - 8 Mil
Kidd - Who knows. Let's give him 5Mil
Brewer - 3Mil
Dom Jones - 1Mil
Carter - ????

You're basically at this year's luxury tax line with that, potentially a bit over depending on what Carter makes. But...I mean..that's a damn good team already, no?

Under that scenario, I think it's highly likely that you amnesty Marion. Now you have another 8 Mil to play with under the luxury tax, and you have the mini-mid level to give out along with veteran minimums.

So, basically, as long as Cuban is willing to be at , say, an 80Mil payroll, I think that works just fine. Plus In another two years (after this fictional trade) Hedo falls off the books and you still have Dwight and Dirk and a bit more financial flexibility. The beauty of getting Dwight specifically is that he takes so much pressure off Dirk. With that pairing your window is basically open as long as Dirk is playing, period. And when he stops playing you still have Dwight freaking Howard.

jthig32 · 12-10-2011, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
Mavs' first swipe, I'm told, will be trying to do S-and-T w/Sacramento for Dalembert by using big trade exception from Tyson Chandler deal

I hope just after Dwight&Hedo failed...

Ok...now this...this I don't understand.

Bayliss · 12-10-2011, 12:11 PM

Dalembert has sh*t for brains. Stats may be similar to Tyson Chandler's but Dalembert cannot be relied on.... he has one of the lowest bball IQs in the league.

Please don't sign Dalembert.

jthig32 · 12-10-2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Dalembert has sh*t for brains. Stats may be similar to Tyson Chandler's but Dalembert cannot be relied on.... he has one of the lowest bball IQs in the league.

Please don't sign Dalembert.

Stein says the goal is for it to be a one year contract.

PartywithDirk · 12-10-2011, 12:16 PM

I guess the thinking is get Dalembert for a year and clear the cap space for Dwight as FA in 2012? If he ever gets to that point?

jthig32 · 12-10-2011, 12:17 PM

Here's the explanation:

Quote:

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
Trade exception alone was never going to get Mavs back into Dwight Sweepstakes. Only chance is if Dwight chose Dallas in 2012 free agency

Quote:

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
If Mavs can get Dalembert on one-year deal, they have replacement for Chandler this season and cap space for 2012 free agency as top bidder

Signing Howard via free agency makes the scenario I laid out with Fin a lot more complicated. But as has been pointed out so often, trading for Howard is damn near impossible.