Josh for Marion talks on the table? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 01-18-2009, 10:31 AM

Quote:

The idea that Miami would send Shawn Marion to Toronto before the Feb. 19 trading deadline is a natural on multiple levels and, according to one insider, has been "circulating for awhile." But ongoing discussions toward a possible Marion-for-Jermaine O'Neal trade, according to NBA front-office sources, are not the only talks Pat Riley is having these days.

Two obvious factors that favor Toronto:

1. Marion could slot in between Raps cornerstones Chris Bosh and Andrea Bargnani and provide the clear upgrade at the wing position that Toronto president Bryan Colangelo -- who drafted Marion in Phoenix in 1999 -- has been seeking via trade for weeks.

2. O'Neal, if healthy, could address one of Riley's biggest needs, since the Heat have no dependable center. Better yet, O'Neal carries a hefty contract that expires after the 2009-10 season, whether or not he can shake his persistent knee troubles. The contract expires just in time for the summer, when Riley will be trying to re-sign Dwyane Wade and put a marquee player next to him. (Sacramento, for the record, could swing this sort of Marion deal as well, by sending Miami pass-happy center Brad Miller and little-used Kenny Thomas, both of whom possess contracts expiring after the '09-10 season.)

However ...

Plugged-in sources say that Riley wants to see how O'Neal, who only returned to the Raptors' lineup Friday, holds up physically in a handful of games before taking the discussions any further. And as stated above, sources indicate that there are other teams in contention for Marion, most notably Dallas in a trade that would feature Josh Howard going to Miami for Marion.

Yet it remains to be seen (a) whether Miami ultimately decides that it would rather gamble on O'Neal's vulnerable right knee in spite of his Toronto's struggles because quality centers are harder to find and (b) whether Dallas is prepared to surrender Howard for Marion and risk losing Marion without compensation this summer.

Howard obviously isn't a center, but the 28-year-old would appear to fit better alongside Wade and rookie Michael Beasley than Marion, since he wouldn't cut into Beasley's minutes at power forward like Marion sometimes does.

Howard also has a contract that fits into Miami's long-range plans, with a salary of $10.4 million this season, $11.4 million next season and a team option for 2010-11 at $12.3 million. Acquiring Howard now would give the Heat almost a season and a half to gauge how he functions as a Wade sidekick, with no obligation to slice into their future salary-cap space if they don't like how it looks.

Because its original three-way deal with Charlotte and Oklahoma City featuring Raymond Felton unraveled last week, Dallas still has Jerry Stackhouse's virtual expiring contract ($7 million this season, only $2 million guaranteed next season) to facilitate such a swap. A package of Howard and Stackhouse works for Marion cap-wise.

Source: No not Ingram, Marc Stein @ Espn

slowmo · 01-18-2009, 10:35 AM

I love Matrix game but that expiring contract this summer leaves it open that he could walk and we would lose Howards value. Better to go after Michael Redd or Kaman.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 01-18-2009, 10:37 AM

Is sign and trade not an option?

bobatundi · 01-18-2009, 10:40 AM

eeew...Marion is an above-average player whose days in Phoenix made him look like a superstar due to the system. I would have serious reservations about a J-Ho for Marion straight-up swap, since I don't see it as much of a talent upgrade (if at all) and we run the risk of losing Marion in a few months with nothing in return. Consider that it would also take Stack to get the deal done, and I hate it--not because I like Stack, but because I think we can get more for his contract.

Even with Marion & Kidd coming off the books this year, I don't think we would have enough cap room to be contenders in the 2009 free-agent market, even though there will probably be some good bargains to be had as teams stockpile cap room for 2010.

If the Mavs were able to get Miami's #1 as part of the deal, I'd consider it a bit more--though that would CLEARLY signal a complete rebuild in the works. Which might not be a bad thing at this point, I'm so fed up with this team right now.

jthig32 · 01-18-2009, 11:09 AM

Howard for Marion, to me, just doesn't make any sense. I don't see how Marion makes this offense any better at all. In fact I think he makes it worse because he absolutely can not generate offense for himself.

That move would be a salary move disguised as an attempt to change things around to win this season. Much like the Iverson deal.

Stranger · 01-18-2009, 11:13 AM

Marion's averaging only 12 points per game this year, and he would make us an even older team, so I would say no to this deal.

Bayliss · 01-18-2009, 11:26 AM

Wrote this on LMF and it applies to this thread as well

Marion is interesting because in a fast paced system he could flourish. He is a better rebounder and defender than Howard. But he isn't a one on one scorer a la Howard. But he is willing to run, and with a guy like Kidd, Marion could get 2-3 dunks a night, something Howard is unwilling to do.

jthig32 · 01-18-2009, 11:31 AM

But we don't really have a fast paced system.

Bayliss · 01-18-2009, 11:38 AM

Fast paced, not really. But there is a reason why Terry leads the league in fast break points. With Marion, when the Mavs get the rebound, he will run. Kidd is best in the open court. He will allow Marion to get easy looks like he has done for Terry all year.

The Mavs don't have to be the Phx Suns. But they could definitely get easier points. Marion (IMO) will allow them to get easier points because Howard refuses to run if he doesn't have the ball. Hell, he refuses to shoot inside 15 feet most nights.

Marion is a worse one on one player, but he is a much better finisher. And the other aspects he brings over Howard make it interesting.

jthig32 · 01-18-2009, 11:42 AM

What about the aspect of him being a free agent after this season?

Also, how happy he was to go from Phoenix to Miami last year really bothers me. Dude doesn't care about winning.

I mean Josh doesn't seem to either, but it would disappoint me to blow a trade asset like Josh (damaged as he is), PLUS Stack's expiring, for a guy like Marion.

Sportstudi · 01-18-2009, 11:43 AM

Well, Marion is a better defender and rebounder as Howard (as already stated by Byliss), but he isn't a scorer. Well, it's hard to argue if that equals each other. We need another scorer besides Dirk and Terry, but on the other side we need a good defender as well, because we allow way too many points almost each night. The only good aspect of a deal with Miami regardless what we would get in return is to get rid of a dickhead who has never learned to be a teamplayer.

dalmations202 · 01-18-2009, 11:52 AM

Matrix doesn't want to play second fiddle, but he is a second fiddle.

I don't think Dallas should make the trade unless they can extend him at a "closer to JHo" rate for a few years.

If they make this trade w/o any extentions -- IMO, they are rebuilding next year and letting Kidd and Marion walk.

jthig32 · 01-18-2009, 11:58 AM

You know getting Marion/Josh's contracts off the books along with Kidd would actually give the Mavs *some* room under the salary cap next year. But even if they could clear off a little more...there's no one to sign next year that's worth a darn (and that also fits on this team).

BGMaverick9 · 01-18-2009, 12:08 PM

Yeah, this is one of the few deals that I wouldn't like for Josh.

Marion's pros don't outweigh the potential cons with him. You have to hope that his defense can trigger us into a fast pace offense where he will pay off. Then he'll just be a unknown option in the half-court game. His history doesn't support that Dallas will be a fit, he wants to be the top option and he wants to get paid. I don't think Marion is "bankable" for them to give up on 2010. Plus all the potential salary coming off THIS year with Marion and Kidd doesn't do anything for us in 09.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 01-18-2009, 12:08 PM

I would rather go after Gerald Wallace or Chris Kaman.
Even better would be Tayshuan Prince...if he is available.

alby · 01-18-2009, 12:26 PM

I would do Howard/Stack for Cook/Marion

BGMaverick9 · 01-18-2009, 12:40 PM

I guess I'm more worried with the outside factors than the factors between the lines on the court. Looking at his stats/hot spots for the year, his damage is down low, in the heart of the paint (really inside and in the middle). He's going to give you a bunch of ugly when it's outside of the arc. He shows the ability to go for rebounds, especially on the offensive side of the court. Now he might drop down in those numbers a bit because of guys like Damp, Dirk, even Kidd...but I think the payoff is on the offensive rebounds department, he hustles and tries to go at it with the offensive rebounds.

My problem is chemistry and contract numbers.
Marion has been vocal in Phoenix about being discontent about his role and that he feels he should be the star of the offense...that clearly isn't going to happen here, so what is that doing for him?
What is going to happen next year? We'd have roughly 38-39 million coming off the books this summer if we wanted it, that's not the right summer for that. Do we want to just try to hope for the best and give these guys big one year deals, let them walk for nothing, SnT them for something else?

On the court, I can buy into the deal...off the court, I need to know more to be assured about it.

I dunno how often you guys look at Hoopshype...it's just a collection of stories/rumors across the league. This is 3 times in about 2 weeks Josh has been the main headline for the front page...doesn't look too good for him and staying.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-18-2009, 12:47 PM

Eh, the Mavericks probably have ten trades on the table for Howard, and this just happens to be one of them. The rumor doesn't seem very rock-solid and has a lot of ifs.

BGMaverick9 · 01-18-2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Eh, the Mavericks probably have ten trades on the table for Howard, and this just happens to be one of them. The rumor doesn't seem very rock-solid and has a lot of ifs.

It's Stein...Stein doesn't mess around with his info like Ingram. On top of that, he knows or has the best pulse of the Mavericks when it comes to this stuff better than at least 95% of the reporters in the country.

It seems solid, just contingent on 2 things, one of which we can't control. We're basically a plan B for Miami. But if we become "on the clock" it sounds like it's up to us if we want to do the deal or not.

foglemann · 01-18-2009, 12:55 PM

Give me Marion. Expiring contract and better play, I'll take it

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-18-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

It seems solid, just contingent on 2 things, one of which we can't control. We're basically a plan B for Miami. But if we become "on the clock" it sounds like it's up to us if we want to do the deal or not.

I'm not arguing Stein's credentials, but you just reaffirmed what I said with your last sentence. Too many ifs at this point. Shawn Marion seems more like a "lets just settle with this" move than a move you search for. Like I said, it's probably one of multiple trades the Mavs are exploring. Stein just happened to get good info on this one.

grndmstr_c · 01-18-2009, 01:04 PM

I don't doubt that conversations are happening if Stein's reporting it, but it's also true that there has to be more to this than just Josh and Marion involved here because of cap restrictions.

Now, if all that's missing is Stack's contract to make salaries match, then count me as extremely hesitant and unimpressed. Don't much trust Marion (or the effect age will have/is already having on his skills) going forward, and I'm not confident he's really what the team needs. Perhaps there'd be another team involved, though, or more players coming back the Mavs way, in which case there's at least a chance I'd be happier with the actual discussions than I am with the rumor.

pepe · 01-18-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

I would do Howard/Stack for Cook/Marion

Now this scenario give us more flexibility, the MAVS put themselves in a position to compete this year, with Marion defense and hustle and give us a nice looking prospect as a SG, and if the Marion experiment fail they can let him walk and we keep Cook.

A first round pick will be nice, but I rather keep Cook a 21 year old with ton of upside.

jayC · 01-18-2009, 01:25 PM

According to Doug Smith and the Toronto Star Oneal for Marion is close to happening.

The Raptors are moving toward a significant mid-season trade that would ship Jermaine O'Neal to the Miami Heat for Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks in a deal involving highly paid veterans unable to fit seamlessly into new situations.

Multiple league sources confirmed yesterday that talks have progressed to the point where the trade, although not imminent, could be finalized when the Heat are satisfied O'Neal is healthy enough to help them in their drive for the Eastern Conference playoffs.

How many more games it will take to convince the Heat is unclear, but the sources confirmed talks are nearly completed at the highest levels of each organization.

Raptor officials, citing long-held team rules, would not comment on trade speculation.

O'Neal, according to sources and various Internet reports, has told friends and acquaintances that he expects to be dealt to Miami. League sources tell the Star that nothing is expected to happen in the next 24 or 48 hours and it could be more than a week before any deal is finalized.

The Raptors have a home game against Phoenix today and start a three-game road trip in Atlanta tomorrow; the Heat played last night and today and begin a four-game homestand on Wednesday.

One thing is certain, and that is the Raptors are shopping the 30-year-old O'Neal, who played Friday night for the first time in 10 games in Toronto's loss to the Indiana Pacers after missing nine games with a knee injury.

Averaging 13.6 points and 7.2 rebounds per game, he has been effective but not overwhelming in a half-season after being acquired from the Pacers for T.J. Ford and Rasho Nesterovic in a multi-player July transaction.

The emergence of Andrea Bargnani as a bona fide NBA starting centre – he's averaging more than 20 points per game – has made moving O'Neal and his contract – $21.372 million this season, $23.016 million next season (all figures U.S.) – a priority for general manager Bryan Colangelo.

Marion, whose $17,810,000 contract expires at the end of this season, hasn't fit perfectly with the Heat after being obtained last season from Phoenix in a deal for Shaquille O'Neal.

The 30-year-old is averaging 12.1 points and 9.2 rebounds and would be seen in some circles as a major defensive and rebounding upgrade at small forward for Toronto.

And the Raptors seem in desperate need of help.

The loss in Indiana was their fourth in a row and they hit the midway point in the regular season with a 16-25 record, 3 1/2 games out of the eighth and final Eastern Conference playoff spot.

While the principals in the deal are O'Neal and Marion, Banks would be included to satisfy the NBA's arcane salary cap rules. Banks has been unable to find playing time for the point guard-starved Heat, who have been using rookie Mario Chalmers and journeyman Chris Quinn.

But he could get a chance to challenge Roko Ukic and Will Solomon in Toronto for backup minutes once the injured Jose Calderon returns.

The biggest problem with Banks is a cumbersome contract. The 27-year-old has two years and more than $9 million left on his deal after this season, leaving Toronto contractually obligated to a potential non-contributor when the best free-agent class in league history hits the market in 2010.

O'Neal told reporters in Toronto on Thursday he understood he'd be the centre of trade speculation and said he would be fine with moving, if he had to, after only half a season with the Raptors.

vRookie · 01-18-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaVs 41 BaLler

I would rather go after Gerald Wallace or Chris Kaman.
Even better would be Tayshuan Prince...if he is available.

Chances are none of those players are available, which would leave Mavs with not too many options. I like Marion but not at the cost of all our trading chips. But the way things look right now, he just might end up here

EDIT: ... or not. Looks like Marion to Raptors will happen

BGMaverick9 · 01-18-2009, 01:30 PM

When it comes down to if we do it or not, that's the biggest and most important if, with a lot of little crossroads you have to establish and decide on to see if you're ending up at the point of doing the deal or not. The decision on an extension, 2009 into 2010, what happens if they (Marion and Kidd) don't wanna fall in line with our plans etc etc...those are the decisions that need to be made. I guess they can be seen as ifs, I just see them as conditions.

Marion as seen as the better player in the deal so I don't think we can be trying to get a sweeter side of the pot by asking for a pick or something. Stack is the missing piece to make the deal work. Now if you want to get picks or players, you've gotta probably add Jet.

MainEv3nt · 01-18-2009, 01:32 PM

Hope it don't happen.

BGMaverick9 · 01-18-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vRookie

Chances are none of those players are available, which would leave Mavs with not too many options. I like Marion but not at the cost of all our trading chips. But the way things look right now, he just might end up here

Prince I highly doubt is available unless they get a stud with a 2010 friendly contract comes into play. Unless something has dramatically happened in Charlotte, Wallace is still VERY available. Kaman is the one I WANT to be available, but I don't know what the Clippers are trying to do, they're not clear on their intentions right now.

vRookie · 01-18-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Prince I highly doubt is available unless they get a stud with a 2010 friendly contract comes into play. Unless something has dramatically happened in Charlotte, Wallace is still VERY available. Kaman is the one I WANT to be available, but I don't know what the Clippers are trying to do, they're not clear on their intentions right now.

I recently read something Camby said with regards to him being traded. That he is here to stay and that the organization thinks, this group of players, when healthy, is a playoff team. I am thinking they are waiting for this team to get healthy and to see where they are at before parting ways with players such as Kaman.
But hey if Donnie can get him, I won't be complaining

BGMaverick9 · 01-18-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vRookie

I recently read something Camby said with regards to him being traded. That he is here to stay and that the organization thinks, this group of players, when healthy, is a playoff team. I am thinking they are waiting for this team to get healthy and to see where they are at before parting ways with players such as Kaman.
But hey if Donnie can get him, I won't be complaining

Camby does seem like the player that is getting talked about most around the league, in terms of getting dealt...not sure why though. They could easily let his money roll off quicker than Kaman, same for Randolph. I thought if they let Kaman go they'd still have a great big-man combo with offense and defense. Camby is nice on defense obviously but his offense still seems perimeter based, to me at least. He seems like a shooter, not a low-post guy.

As for that statement about health and the Clippers...it's similar to the Rockets, IF healthy/WHEN healthy, they're never all healthy together. Davis is going to eventually continue in a breakdown mode, Camby misses a fair amount of time, Randolph is getting older so injuries are going to be ahead, etc etc. Houston might be starting to realize something needs to happen between T-Mac and Yao because they're not going to be healthy at the same time for it to work out. At least with the Rockets, they still have enough to get in to the playoffs. The Clippers are still at least 2-3 years away with Gordon and Thorton to make a shot at it. So they should just stockpile the contracts to wash away in 2010 and regroup. They have 3 bigs, 1 of which will go beyond 2010. Trading away Kaman can put them full steam ahead on to the 2010 plan.

craggmac · 01-18-2009, 02:33 PM

I wish the trade deadline was TOMORROW so we could speed this sh!t up!

Dirkenstien · 01-18-2009, 03:06 PM

I actually wouldn't mind the trade. We put another fast break player in the lineup with Kidd and if it doesn't work out then we have a lot of expiring money and either plan for 2010 or start rebuilding.

My feeling right now is getting Marion probably won't make us that much better of a team but right now Howard is giving us nothing and anything is better than nothing.

esoteric562 · 01-18-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craggmac

I wish the trade deadline was TOMORROW so we could speed this sh!t up!

lol aint that true dude, i'm getting too anxious myself!

MaVs 41 BaLler · 01-18-2009, 03:29 PM

From what I hear......is that "oh we will just wait till the whole team is healthy and at 100%"

we already tried that

BGMaverick9 · 01-18-2009, 03:29 PM

Charlotte, Miami, Toronto seem like destinations for Howard.

My destinations that seem like potential fits on top of that are: Clippers, Bulls, Milwaukee, and Minnesota.

If the two for sure ones go away (with Miami and Toronto - Marion deal) then that list starts to get really tight. I'm sure there is a list of options for Josh deals, it's just a matter of seeing what's left and what is the best option available.

LonghornDub · 01-18-2009, 03:33 PM

I'd be pretty peeved if we did this trade. I think Marion is a very good player on the right team, but that team isn't Dallas.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 01-18-2009, 03:35 PM

These are all possible trades im willing to do:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/feature...17~6&te=&cash=

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/feature...30~6&te=&cash=

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/feature...15~6&te=&cash=

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/feature...12~6&te=&cash=

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/feature...=8~6&te=&cash=

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-18-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

I actually wouldn't mind the trade. We put another fast break player in the lineup with Kidd and if it doesn't work out then we have a lot of expiring money and either plan for 2010 or start rebuilding.

My feeling right now is getting Marion probably won't make us that much better of a team but right now Howard is giving us nothing and anything is better than nothing.

And Marion gets easy baskets around the rim. That would be second best to getting an actual low-post big man....of which there really don't seem to be any good options available.

The more I think, the more I like. Marion is an energy player and fun to watch.

I actually don't see the Jermaine O'Neal trade working out for Toronto and Miami. The reason being is that if Jermaine proves he is healthy, then why would Colangelo trade him? And if he can't come back from injury, then Miami will back off.

catsil · 01-18-2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foglemann

Give me Marion. Expiring contract and better play, I'll take it

Expiring contract isn't useful if it doesn't create space to sign free agents

BGMaverick9 · 01-18-2009, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaVs 41 BaLler

These are all possible trades im willing to do:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/feature...17~6&te=&cash=

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/feature...30~6&te=&cash=

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/feature...15~6&te=&cash=

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/feature...12~6&te=&cash=

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/feature...=8~6&te=&cash=

You read my mind for the most part on the Clippers/Kitty Cats/Milwaukee deals. Those were some of the places I had in mind and the actual deals I had in mind, but maybe fleshed out more to try to get more out of it.
I don't see Cuban dealing with NJ any time soon. I don't see Prince being openly available, especially for Howard straight up.

Redd officially takes you out of the 2010 idea, but he's what we need in terms of shooting.

My ideas with Minnesota and Chicago are as so:
Minnesota you look at Mike Miller obviously, but see if there is any real need for McCants.

With the Bulls, you could see something with a number of options. You can look at guys like Hinrich (Kidd security), Andres Nocioni, Deng, and Hughes.