Is Kobe Bryant hurting Lakers late

[mavs777]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid...PERDiem-110311

i dont have insider if anyone would post the article i would be very appreciative, give you much rep

[dirno2000]

Remind me again: Which team has the late-game issues?

Let's suppose I had told you before Thursday's Lakers-Heat game that one of the teams had been struggling in late-game situations, had issues about which player was taking the shots down the stretch and played an "Xbox" offense consisting mostly of one-on-one play. And suppose I hadn't told you which one of the teams it was, and instead let you figure it out by watching.

You would have seen the last three minutes of the game and told me, very confidently, that the team in question was the Lakers.

While the stories about Kobe Bryant's postgame workout dominate the airwaves, I'm a little distressed to hear that he wasn't working on, say, passing. As my favorite (or favourite) Canadian columnist Bruce Arthur pointed out on Twitter, the fact that Bryant was shooting alone after the game is the perfect metaphor for the way he played during it, especially in the last three minutes.

There's no way to sugarcoat this: Kobe's me-on-five routine at the end of L.A.'s 94-88 loss to Miami cost the Lakers the game. Instead of complaining about not getting a call on one of the most ridiculous shots of the bunch, a contested 3-point jack with a fresh shot clock at the 1:06 mark, Bryant might instead have pondered how he could have gotten an easier look for himself or, God forbid, one of the other four guys out there with him.

And after the game, it was still about him, with his grandiose hey-look-at-me-working-out show succeeding brilliantly in sucking all the attention from his fit of self-indulgence at the end of the game. (News flash: American Airlines Arena has a practice court. I've been on it. It's nice and big and everything. But it's tough to herd all the media up there to fawn over your postgame workout.) If I were Pau Gasol or Andrew Bynum, I would have made an equally big show of going out to the court and standing helplessly in the paint calling for the ball while Bryant practiced his shots, just to add an extra element of realism.

Maybe I'm being too harsh here. It was one bad game in March that will mean, essentially, nothing once the playoffs start a month from now. But it continues a disturbing trend of Bryant playing like an MVP for the first 46 minutes of every game, then flinging wild hero shots at the end of them.

It hasn't hurt the Lakers more this season largely because their crunch-time defense has been so good. For instance, in L.A.'s last white-knuckle game, in Oklahoma City two weeks ago, the same thing happened. Down the stretch Bryant shot the ball five straight times -- all tough, contested shots -- and made only one of them. But because L.A. held the Thunder scoreless over the final 2:01, the Lakers prevailed.

But L.A. didn't score a single point in the final 2:26 on Thursday night, with Bryant's line in that stretch including two turnovers and three wild misses (check out how far away he was on this one). The game was tied at the time, but Kobe's direct hand in five straight empty trips was why Miami won.

Like I said, it's one game. The Lakers still sit atop the Power Rankings and everyone still fears facing them in the playoffs. And Bryant's insatiable desire to dominate is, at most times, a good thing. But if there's a fly in the ointment for the Lakers' playoff hopes, it ironically lies in their best player's insatiable need to play the hero.

[ceelowdream]

Kobe is generally flawless. I think we'd take him here in Dallas.

[mtd20]

yeah, he really hurt the Lakers against Portland tonight...

[mtd20]

Yeah...once again, he hurt his team tonight agisnt the suns......

[mavsman]

Yeah, he helped them a lot by shooting an amazing 3-11 in the OTs. If that's Terry, this whole board demands for him to be traded.

[mtd20]

Thats because some board members on here over-react like tens year olds instead of adults. As for overtime, last time I checked his go ahead three pointer, good defense, and clutch bucket to put them at 139 points in the 3rd OT helped close the game (something Terry probably would not have done, never the less, when was the last time Jason posted a stat line of 42-12-9).

[mavsman]

See, that's what selective perception can do for you. Of course Kobe's superawesome and stuff, yet he still followed his 11-19 in the first 47 minutes with 3-12 in the last min of reguation and the ots, aka when the game was on the line. That's the exact opposite of "being clutch".
For further reference: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...-for-everybody

[mtd20]

Once again, 7 straight points down the stretch to help the Lakers close out the Clippers last night.

Either way....you lost all credibility by using the Henry Abbott card. Anyone in the states knows that he is driven by sensationalized reports that continuously praise LeBron James (his biggest nut hugging fan) and takes every opportunity to bash Kobe Bryant on a regular basis, while generally using skewed and biased stats to back up his claims (i.e., John Hollinger...) Either way Germany, although I do respect your opinion (just not most of the media hacks on ESPN), I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

However, this gentleman seems to make some valid points to the contrary….

Nearly every year in the NBA’s annual survey, the general managers of each team have predominantly voted Kobe Bryant as being the best clutch player in the league. Yet, Kobe haters like to bring up stats taken from sites like 82games.com that show he only makes about 25 percent of game winning shots. They use this statistic to “prove” that Kobe is not that good in the clutch.

The problem with this conclusion is that it is short-sighted and misses a lot of other facts.
For instance, the same website shows that per minute played, Kobe is among the best in the NBA in all-around production in the clutch including points, rebounds, assists and defensive plays.
What is counted as a game-winning shot is only when there are 24 or fewer seconds remaining in the game. What is not counted are go-ahead shots that Kobe has made to give the Lakers the lead with 40 seconds left in regulation—even if the shot happens to be the last points scored in the game.

The statistic also doesn’t count the amazing clutch shots Kobe made in contests like in Game 6 of last year’s Western Conference Finals against Phoenix. His play was so impressive that Suns’ coach Alvin Gentry said that he has never seen any player more impressive than Kobe Bryant. Considering Gentry has been around to see players like Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan. That is quite a compliment!

While Kobe’s conversion rate of potential game-winning shots is low, one would be hard-pressed to find any NBA legend that was able to convert at a high rate. This is because team defenses clamp down in the final seconds of close games and it is rare that a player is going to get a wide-open (and therefore higher percentage) shot.

One more fact should be considered. While game-winning stats have not been documented well until the past decade or two, one should note that Kobe Bryant has made more game-winners than Michael Jordan over the course of his career.
Michael Jordan, whom I consider to be the very best NBA player of all-time, made 26 (if one includes when he played for the Washington Wizards). Kobe Bryant has made 27.
In fact, I have yet to come across any documentation that any player in NBA history has made more game-winners. While this doesn’t necessarily mean Kobe is more clutch than Jordan was, it is certainly impressive.

Few players in the league even want to take potential game-tying or winning shots. Of the select few that want to, none of them can create their own shot as easily as Kobe Bryant, nor are any of them as big of a cold-blooded assassin.
This is why in the 2008 Olympics on a team that had loads of talent (players such as LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard and Deron Williams), it was Kobe that came through in the close fourth quarter that led Team USA to victory against Spain in the gold medal game.

Unless one thinks they know better than the GMs, coaches and players in the league, it still appears that Kobe is among the best clutch players in the NBA….by Ethan S.

[Mavs999]

Originally Posted by ceelowdream

Kobe is generally flawless. I think we'd take him here in Dallas.

we wish... kobe to dirk = money in the bank....

[Mavsfan4ever]

Kobe desires the spotlight which makes him a ball hog. Kobe needs to remember basketball is a team sport.

[spreedom]

As much as people like to say that Kobe's slowing down or has lost a step, I still think he's right in the discussion as being the best player in the league. I don't think you can go wrong with Kobe, Wade, LeBron, or Dwight Howard.

[Mavs999]

Originally Posted by spreedom

. I don't think you can go wrong with Kobe, LeBron, durant, or Dwight Howard.

fixed

[spreedom]

How about we let Durant win a playoff series first? kthx

[Mavs999]

Originally Posted by spreedom

How about we let Durant win a playoff series first? kthx

negative...dflop is a pos.... would much rather have durant than dflop

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by Mavs999

negative...dflop is a pos.... would much rather have durant than dflop

Longterm yes, but if I had to build a team around one player for one season I'd take Wade. He is much more complete as an all-around player today.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by spreedom

Longterm yes, but if I had to build a team around one player for one season I'd take Wade. He is much more complete as an all-around player today.

Complete in which way? That he is inconsistent defensivly? He can play pretty good defense when he puts his mind to it, but that isn't too often. He gambles way too much defensivley.

[Bynum4MVP]

This thread is just crazy talk.

Kobe just took the Lakers and yanked them into #2.

Too many people are caught up in how you win a game instead of the result.

82games hypes up Lebron and Wade as such "efficient" clutch players but as you can all see they lost like 20 close games this year.

Watch this video to enjoy all the Lebron and Wade "clutch" moments this year. There's ALOT of clutch in this ...lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APudE...embedded#at=11

Meanwhile, "Inefficient" Kobe is undefeated in OT this year and yet again hit a clutch shot to bring home the #2 seed and a date with the Hornets sans David West.

There are no style points, a win is all that matters. Winning is clutch, not hurting the team.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

This thread is just crazy talk.

Kobe just took the Lakers and yanked them into #2.

Too many people are caught up in how you win a game instead of the result. So many stats saying Lebron and Wade are such "efficient" clutch players but as you can all see but they lost like 20 close games this year.

"Inefficient" Kobe is undefeated in OT this year.

That is clutch, not hurting the team.

He singlehandedly got the Lakers down three with nine seconds to go. Yes, singlehandedly. One made free throw, on a technical, and everything else nowhere near the bottom of the basket.

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

He singlehandedly got the Lakers down three with nine seconds to go. Yes, singlehandedly. One made free throw, on a technical, and everything else nowhere near the bottom of the basket.

Kobe also won the game.

If the Lakers had lost, I would agree with you.

Lebron and Wade are VERY efficient in losing close games.

In the end I take the inefficient win over over the very efficient losing.

Lebron and Wade are 82Games "clutch superstars" but just look at all these "clutch" moments to see the reality of efficiency vs winning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APudE...embedded#at=11

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

Kobe also won the game.

If the Lakers had lost, I would agree with you.

Lebron and Wade are VERY efficient in losing close games.

In the end I take the inefficient win over over the very efficient losing.

Lebron and Wade are 82Games "clutch superstars" but just look at all these "clutch" moments to see the reality of efficiency vs winning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APudE...embedded#at=11

Don't know what to tell you, bro. It took him seven chances to do something positive for the team, in clutch time. That rate ain't goin' get you very far.

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Don't know what to tell you, bro. It took him seven chances to do something positive for the team, in clutch time. That rate ain't goin' get you very far.

Well if you believe efficient losses delivered by Lebron and Wade are better then inefficient wins delievered by Kobe, we can just agree to disagree.

In the meantime, I truly wish the Mavs well in taking care of the Blazers. I'd want no part of the Blazers.

Then we'll see how inefficient Kobe hurts the Lakers against the Mavs in a couple of weeks.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

Well if you believe efficient losses delivered by Lebron and Wade are better then inefficient wins delievered by Kobe, we can just agree to disagree.

In the meantime, I truly wish the Mavs well in taking care of the Blazers. I'd want no part of the Blazers.

Then we'll see how inefficient Kobe hurts the Lakers against the Mavs in a couple of weeks.

First off, good buddy, I have no opinion on Lebron and Wade at all, as it relates to this thread. Not sure how that got started. Now, what I do believe is that inefficiency is generally a bad thing. No, I don't dress it up in pretty clothes, such as "inefficient win." Inefficient is simply less desirable than efficient, is the way I roll.

The more I think about it, I'm wondering if I missed a made shot by Kobe. I know I had him for six misses down the stretch, and of course that made three, but I'm wondering if I have neglected to include that long two, where his toe was on the line.

No matter, even if so. Two out of eight isn't a whole lot better than one out of seven. It's just so remarkable how the entire rest of the Lakers team shuts it down entirely when it's late and it's time for Kobe to shoot (or, miss six out of seven).

[nowhereman]

Kobe is the most overrated late-game scorer in the history of the NBA

The guy will screw his team over possession after possession and make one good play out of 10, and that's all people care about. If he didn't have Pau Gasol or Ron Artest there to bail him out for his terrible late game play last season, especially in game 7 against Boston or in game 5 against PHX, the world would better know him for the fraud he is.

[nowhereman]

http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?ga...10013&period=4

2:49 left, Lakers down 2

Kobe Bryant bad pass (Thabo Sefolosha steals a lazy cross court pass by Kobe 30 feet from the basket)

1:28 left, lakers down 4

Kobe Bryant steps out of bounds (Kobe drives into traffic instead of passing the ball inside, and falls harmlessly out of bounds without passing)

1:00 left, lakers down 6

Kobe Bryant gets an offensive rebound, and then airballs a corner 3

0:40 left, Lakers down 6

Kobe fouls Russell Westbrook on a 3 from the left wing, Russ makes the shot, lakers down 10

0:29 left, Lakers down 10

Kobe Bryant lost ball (Kevin Durant steals)

...

SO CLUTCH. This was one of the most laughably bad performances I've ever seen in the 4th quarter, and to think it came from the same lameass and contrived guy who is the most overrated "clutch" player in the history of the league makes it even funnier.

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

No matter, even if so. Two out of eight isn't a whole lot better than one out of seven. It's just so remarkable how the entire rest of the Lakers team shuts it down entirely when it's late and it's time for Kobe to shoot (or, miss six out of seven).

That's exactly it.

Kobe shoots 2-8 and ends up being the hero.

Then you watch the heroes of 82games like Lebron and Wade and this is what happens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APudE...embedded#at=11

So at the end of the Day, Kobe is undefeated in OT; while the 82games Superstars are something like 2-18 in close games.

I believe "inefficient wins" > "efficient losses"

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

That's exactly it.

Kobe shoots 2-8 and ends up being the hero.

Then you watch the heroes of 82games like Lebron and Wade and this is what happens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APudE...embedded#at=11

So at the end of the Day, Kobe is undefeated in OT; while the 82games Superstars are something like 2-18 in close games.

I believe "inefficient wins" > "efficient losses"

Well...wins are better than losses, I know that.

But I also know that inefficient play is more likely to lose than is efficient play.

You are doing a lot of after-the-fact reasoning here. What is the point? You don't have to tell me who won, when I can already see the final score.

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You are doing a lot of after-the-fact reasoning here. What is the point? You don't have to tell me who won, when I can already see the final score.

Oh, I'm not trying to tell you anything.

I just posted in general and you replied to my post so I replied to your reply and you replied to my reply of your reply

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

Oh, I'm not trying to tell you anything.

I just posted in general and you replied to my post so I replied to your reply and you replied to my reply of your reply

You misinterpreted that, evidently. What I said, in other words, was: What does it prove, wins or losses, when a guy played like ass, or didn't?

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

Oh, I'm not trying to tell you anything.

I just posted in general and you replied to my post so I replied to your reply and you replied to my reply of your reply

big bag of nothing. it's nonsense reasoning like this which makes people think kobe is 'clutch.'

Pau was taking teams with less talent to 50 win-seasons while kobe was pouting in 4th quarters in first rounds, and missing the playoffs. Name 3 other players from the grizzlies teams other than pau that won 50 games. Jake Tsakalidis? Shane Battier? um... that's it? Meanwhile, Kobe is out there breaking apart a dynasty, getting accused of rape, missing the playoffs, intentionally throwing away elimination games against the Suns, and this is the guy that history will remember as a great player? What a load of garbage.

[mavs777]

Mike Miller?

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

big bag of nothing. it's nonsense reasoning like this which makes people think kobe is 'clutch.'

Pau was taking teams with less talent to 50 win-seasons

Pau never won a Playoff game without Kobe in 12 tries. A shut out even with a prime Bonzi Wells, Mike Miller, Damon Stoudemire, Shane Battier and James Posey.

Pau's team was a better cast than Kobe's Odom, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton, Laron Profit, Brian Cook, Slava Medvedenko, etc.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

Pau never won a Playoff game without Kobe in 12 tries. A shut out even with a prime Bonzi Wells, Mike Miller, Damon Stoudemire, Shane Battier and James Posey.

Pau's team was a better cast than Kobe's Odom, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton, Laron Profit, Brian Cook, Slava Medvedenko, etc.

prime Stoudemire? HAHAHAHA I think you mean scrub near end of career

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You misinterpreted that, evidently. What I said, in other words, was: What does it prove, wins or losses, when a guy played like ass, or didn't?

The title of the thread is that Kobe hurts his team late in games.

You say it is because he is inefficient he is hurting his team.

I say it doesn't matter if Kobe is inefficient or not, they still win the game.

When you look at Kobe's "playing like" ass but being undefeated in Overtime, how is that hurting the team.

Yet 82games "clutch superheroes" are like 2-18 in close games this year.

Which one is really hurting their team? The "awesome" superstars in Lebron and Wade who lose the game or the "Playing like ass" superstar that brings home the win?

In my opinion it's the 82games "clutch superstars" like Lebron, Wade and Melo who play so efficiently but choke on the game winner that hurts their team.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APudE...embedded#at=11

There are no style points in winning, you either win or you lose. Kobe doesn't hurt his team "playing like ass" and winning the game. A win is a win and certainly greater than a loss.

[mavs777]

The Lakers are winning games at the end inspite of Kobe, not because of

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

Pau never won a Playoff game without Kobe in 12 tries. A shut out even with a prime Bonzi Wells, Mike Miller, Damon Stoudemire, Shane Battier and James Posey.

Pau's team was a better cast than Kobe's Odom, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton, Laron Profit, Brian Cook, Slava Medvedenko, etc.

Oh, was that Kobe's cast when he took his pants down and showed his ass when the Suns were dismissing them in Game Seven?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

There are no style points in winning, you either win or you lose. Kobe doesn't hurt his team "playing like ass" and winning the game. A win is a win and certainly greater than a loss.

Well, yeah. Nobody in the history of the game ever hurt their team by playing like ass, when they won the game. It's when they take every shot in the last five minutes and miss them all and they LOSE the game, that they hurt their team.

It didn't happen tonight, because Kobe found one that went. It would have happened tonight, if that one hadn't gone, because his team was playing one-on-five toward the end.

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Oh, was that Kobe's cast when he took his pants down and showed his ass when the Suns were dismissing them in Game Seven?

Even Jordan couldn't win without Pippen. Jordan was repeatedly bent over until Pippen joined him.

There's no shame in Kobe losing with Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwamay Brown in his starting 5.

[Bynum4MVP]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It didn't happen tonight, because Kobe found one that went. It would have happened tonight, if that one hadn't gone, because his team was playing one-on-five toward the end.

These IF's don't happen often to the best closer in the game. In fact, the Lakers lost only something like 2 close games this year.

As opposed to the 82Games "efficient" superstars who lost something close to 20 close games this year.

Kobe won, the Lakers secured #2.

I'll go further and bet that Kobe will not hurt the Lakers versus the Mavs in Round 2 and most likely in the series, there will be another Kobe win.

[Bynum4MVP]

You know, when it comes down to it, just ask this question:

With 24 seconds left in a 2 point game, which Mavericks fan would be yelling for Carlisle to let Kobe make the play and "hurt his team" instead of forcing it to Ron or Pau?