Intellectual Trade

[Male30Dan]

Lets put this dispute to a vote!!!

Here ya go!!!

[LRB]

Originally posted by: dalmations202

Then by your definition, Ron Artest is easily the best player in the league. He is more intense than Garnett ever thought of being. He cusses more, and is even more willing to fight. He can play all 5 positions, and can defend any player in the league. He is surrounded by some average players like J O'Neal, R Miller, but makes them look very productive.

I've changed my vote from TD as the best player in the league to Ron Artest............

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

And wouldn't that make Shaq one of the worst players in the NBA since few are less intense than Shaq?

[Male30Dan]

Don't forget the Indiana/LA game in which he almost took Miller's head off!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[alby]

I'm sorry.. but if you don't think Karl Malone and John Stockton.. two players without NBA titles... are all-time greats... you have absolutely no credibility as a judge of basketball talent.

yes true they are great players.. obviously they are the top 50 greatest players of all time.. but they are not in the same class as jordan, bird, magic, kareem, and in reality even td in a few years...

be honest, winning a championship and being at the peak of your profession is what it is all about..

[endtroducing]

Originally posted by: alby

yes true they are great players.. obviously they are the top 50 greatest players of all time.. but they are not in the same class as jordan, bird, magic, kareem, and in reality even td in a few years...

be honest, winning a championship and being at the peak of your profession is what it is all about..

oh my dear sweet god. you've got to be kidding me.

by that thinking, that's like saying Bonds isn't one of the all-time greats...seriously, that was one of the stupidest things I've ever heard anyone say. a championship doesn't mean shit...that's a TEAM accomplishment. we're talking about players here. using your logic, Darko has accomplished more than Barkley...

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: endtroducing

oh my dear sweet god. you've got to be kidding me.

by that thinking, that's like saying Bonds isn't one of the all-time greats...seriously, that was one of the stupidest things I've ever heard anyone say. a championship doesn't mean shit...that's a TEAM accomplishment. we're talking about players here. using your logic, Darko has accomplished more than Barkley...

ET,

I don't get what makes Alby's post "one of the stupidest things YOU'VE ever heard." For that matter, your post has its fair share of stupid comments that should be pointed out... A championship IS a team accomplishment, but to be a GREAT player, you DO need to have the testicular fortitude to lead your troops to the promised land... I believe that definitely seperates the great from the GREAT, if you understand my point... To say that one guy that has averaged 25ppg and 12rpg for his career and never made the playoffs is better than a guy that led his team to the championship 3 times while only averaging 22 and 11 would be incredibly unintelligent... You need to understand that the whole championship point Alby is making has nothing to do with players like Darko. Alby's point is focused on the MAIN guy on a team, (though on Detroit it would be hard to find ONE main guy)... Players like Barkley, who were VERY good, can NOT be put in the same class as those that put up similiar numbers and won the championship... Hell even Barkley would tell you that, (and I think he did on that website where his quotes are collected)...

Look man, the bottom line is that a player like Derek Jeter is better than a player like Miguel Tejada, despite what the numbers say, (and trust me, that is hard to say because I DESPISE the Yankees)... People that come up big and clutch and those that lead are the ones that are respected and looked up to... Does this mean that Barry Bonds isn't one of the all-time greats??? Nope, not a chance... But does it mean that he isn't the best in the game??? You bet your sweet ass it does... If Im an owner and I look for a guy to help me win, do I select a guy that can hit me 50+ homeruns, drive in 120+ RBI, with ZERO leadership abilities and a bad attitude, or a guy that has led his team to the promised land before and will always have an attitude that is looking for the trophy while putting up less numbers??? I think just about EVERYONE would choose the latter, except for you...

So to say that a championship doesn't mean shit in the legacy of a player, (in ANY sport), is just STUPID! It matters to every single one of the guys, and it matters to the media and fans when deciding the best of the best... This is why players like Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Payton, and many others have tried to do whatever it took to win after they came to the conclusion that the team they were on wasn't going to do it!!!

For that to be something that you consider stupid really tells me a lot about the bag of knowledge you bring to this site...

[poohrichardson]

Originally posted by: Male23Dan

ET,

I don't get what makes Alby's post "one of the stupidest things YOU'VE ever heard." For that matter, your post has its fair share of stupid comments that should be pointed out... A championship IS a team accomplishment, but to be a GREAT player, you DO need to have the testicular fortitude to lead your troops to the promised land... I believe that definitely seperates the great from the GREAT, if you understand my point... To say that one guy that has averaged 25ppg and 12rpg for his career and never made the playoffs is better than a guy that led his team to the championship 3 times while only averaging 22 and 11 would be incredibly unintelligent... You need to understand that the whole championship point Alby is making has nothing to do with players like Darko. Alby's point is focused on the MAIN guy on a team, (though on Detroit it would be hard to find ONE main guy)... Players like Barkley, who were VERY good, can NOT be put in the same class as those that put up similiar numbers and won the championship... Hell even Barkley would tell you that, (and I think he did on that website where his quotes are collected)...

Look man, the bottom line is that a player like Derek Jeter is better than a player like Miguel Tejada, despite what the numbers say, (and trust me, that is hard to say because I DESPISE the Yankees)... People that come up big and clutch and those that lead are the ones that are respected and looked up to... Does this mean that Barry Bonds isn't one of the all-time greats??? Nope, not a chance... But does it mean that he isn't the best in the game??? You bet your sweet ass it does... If Im an owner and I look for a guy to help me win, do I select a guy that can hit me 50+ homeruns, drive in 120+ RBI, with ZERO leadership abilities and a bad attitude, or a guy that has led his team to the promised land before and will always have an attitude that is looking for the trophy while putting up less numbers??? I think just about EVERYONE would choose the latter, except for you...

So to say that a championship doesn't mean shit in the legacy of a player, (in ANY sport), is just STUPID! It matters to every single one of the guys, and it matters to the media and fans when deciding the best of the best... This is why players like Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Payton, and many others have tried to do whatever it took to win after they came to the conclusion that the team they were on wasn't going to do it!!!

For that to be something that you consider stupid really tells me a lot about the bag of knowledge you bring to this site...

I think true greats like Stockton, Malone, Barkley, etc.. are truely great because their legacy shines on above many champions despite the fact that they "only" led their teams to the Finals. I mean, come on.. did anyone really expect the Jazz or Suns to beat the Bulls? You could have had Chamberlain in his PRIME against Jordan's Bulls and he wouldn't have been able to win. Oop! I guess that means he isn't an all-time great!

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: poohrichardson

I think true greats like Stockton, Malone, Barkley, etc.. are truely great because their legacy shines on above many champions despite the fact that they "only" led their teams to the Finals. I mean, come on.. did anyone really expect the Jazz or Suns to beat the Bulls? You could have had Chamberlain in his PRIME against Jordan's Bulls and he wouldn't have been able to win. Oop! I guess that means he isn't an all-time great!

I know you have trouble understanding points based on past threads, but I will again try to break this down for you... I didnt say that guys like Stockton, Malone, Barkley, and others in their position were not all-time greats... I said: "I believe that definitely seperates the great from the GREAT." Now, if you are suggesting that Stockton, Malone, Barkley, etc... deserve to be in the GREAT category, well then we do disagree... To put Stockton, Malone, or Barkley next to Jordan and call them his equal is ridiculous, (and this should be fair, because Malone has better numbers than MJ)...

[poohrichardson]

Originally posted by: Male23Dan

I know you have trouble understanding points based on past threads, but I will again try to break this down for you... I didnt say that guys like Stockton, Malone, Barkley, and others in their position were not all-time greats... I said: "I believe that definitely seperates the great from the GREAT." Now, if you are suggesting that Stockton, Malone, Barkley, etc... deserve to be in the GREAT category, well then we do disagree... To put Stockton, Malone, or Barkley next to Jordan and call them his equal is ridiculous, (and this should be fair, because Malone has better numbers than MJ)...

Did I ever say they are his equals? There is no player in NBA history that even comes close to being Jordan's equal except for Julius Erving. With your logic, players like Kobe and Tim Duncan are in Jordan's league. They're good players now.. but neither of those two (who you could make a case for being the leaders of their respective championship teams) can touch the legacy of Barkley or Stockton/Malone.

To me, I would still consider Jordan the greatest in the history of the game whether or not he won any titles at all. His clutch shooting, unequaled skill and craftiness, and never-say-die determination and intensity that make him the best player of all-time.

Championships mean you were part of the greatest TEAM during the season.. they aren't individual accolades.

[Male30Dan]

Did I ever say they are his equals? There is no player in NBA history that even comes close to being Jordan's equal except for Julius Erving. With your logic, players like Kobe and Tim Duncan are in Jordan's league. They're good players now.. but neither of those two (who you could make a case for being the leaders of their respective championship teams) can touch the legacy of Barkley or Stockton/Malone.

To me, I would still consider Jordan the greatest in the history of the game whether or not he won any titles at all. His clutch shooting, unequaled skill and craftiness, and never-say-die determination and intensity that make him the best player of all-time.

Championships mean you were part of the greatest TEAM during the season.. they aren't individual accolades.

No you didn't... I just pointed it out early in our discussion so you wouldn't later misunderstand and bring it up... So again, for the record, they are not his equals...

And by the way, I said: "Players like Barkley, who were VERY good, can NOT be put in the same class as those that put up similiar numbers and won the championship..." Again, I understand your lack of understanding, as you have a reading issue... This answers as to why those like Tim and Kobe are not in Jordan's league despite their championships, (don't get it... Ok... Its because they HAVENT PUT UP SIMILIAR CAREER NUMBERS)!!!

The REASON that VERY FEW players in NBA history come close to being Jordan's equal is BECAUSE of those championships IN ADDITION to the numbers he put up... You can lie through your teeth until they rot out of your head, but you have such respect for Jordan due to his ability to win games, and ultimately, championships...

That clutch shooting you mentioned happened in big games, many of which were playoff series winners, (Cavs/Jazz ring a bell?)...

That never-say-die determination would have meant a whole lot if his 30ppg was wasted on a losing team huh, (Iverson and Tracy ring a bell)??? I guess you REALLY have MAD respect for Iverson, as he should be on the top of your list of all-time greats... After all, who else scores as much as him and has that type of grit??? Give me a break...

And for the last time, I will correct your lack of understanding once more... I KNOW that winning a championship is a TEAM accomplishment, as I said that in my first post to ET; however, I then mentioned that those with the testicular fortitude to lead a team to the promised land was what separated the great from the GREAT!!! You still with me, or do you need another go???

[endtroducing]

Barkley was a 6'4 PF that led a pretty crappy Suns team to the Finals and nearly upset chicago. Stockton and Malone are two of the best players to ever lace up a pair of shoes...Michael Jordan is his own entitity, comparing him to anyone else is impossible...but to suggest that those kind of guys aren't 'all-time' greats of the sport is crazy. All three of those guys will be first ballot hall of famers and are three of the truely great PLAYERS (not teams) the league has ever seen...anyone will pale in comparison with Jordan, but really, to even suggest that those three aren't even on his 'level' is crazy. they were his peers and gave him some of the toughest competition he ever saw. really, in Jordan's era, how many other teams won a Finals? uh, zero? yeah. does Ewing compare to Horace Grant or Cartwright? or what about him compared to Hakeem? do you still think he wasn't one of the best centers ever?

fact is, the guys I mentioned were true leaders and motivators that had the ability to make their entire teams better. and they generally had no one else on their team. now, if that isn't an AMAZING accomplishment, I don't know what is...

Jordan's titles don't mean anything, in terms of individual play...I don't give a shit what his team did. I'm talking from a pure talent, grit and leadership level (which Barkley, Malone and Stockton all favorably compare to Jordan, as much as one could). Jordan had entire teams constructed around him...without Pippen, Rodman, Harper or Kerr he wouldn't have half the titles he does. those three did more with less than anyone else I've seen, did amazing things, played team ball, won MVPs...as individuals, they are TRUELY all-time greats, which is what matters. There's 11 other guys on the damn team, you know...seriously, do you think Bonds never winning a title hurts his chances at being an all-time great? of course not. it's about the PLAYER. not the team. without the other guys, Jordan wouldn't have won...had other players been surrounded with his supporting cast, I'm sure they could have.

and the insults are really childish and kind of uncalled for. we're all Mavericks fans here.

[sike]

and the insults are really childish and kind of uncalled for. we're all Mavericks fans here.

Originally posted by: endtroducing: that was one of the stupidest things I've ever heard anyone say.

good point

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: endtroducing
Barkley was a 6'4 PF that led a pretty crappy Suns team to the Finals and nearly upset chicago. What's your point??? Does this somehow put him in the same league as those that have the same numbers and have won titles??? No!!! Stockton and Malone are two of the best players to ever lace up a pair of shoes...This is your opinion... I personally think that Malone is a guy that was lucky to play so long without injury, and was simply a good scorer/shooter... He did nothing that REALLY made his team special, (when they were good and went to the finals, he had a GREAT supporting cast)... Stockton is one of the greats, but I just cant say he is the best PG of all time because despite all of his assists and steals, he never could lead his team to a championship... Hell, if a guy plays 15 years, stays healthy, and is pretty good, they are going to have a great career regarding their final numbers... I think Stockton and Malone both fall under that category...I dont Michael Jordan is his own entitity, comparing him to anyone else is impossible... That is FAR from true... He can be compared to a good 10-15 guys and can be done so with a straight face but to suggest that those kind of guys aren't 'all-time' greats of the sport is crazy.Again, again, again, again, again... I didnt say they werent all time greats... I said that they can't be put up there with the guys that had their same numbers and won championships... This means that if there are 10 guys that are career 25pt and 10reb guys in NBA History, and 5 of them won championships as the main guy on a team, that the other five guys that didnt simply are not in the same leauge as the guys that did... How does that not make sense to you??? All three of those guys will be first ballot hall of famers and are three of the truely great PLAYERS (not teams) the league has ever seen...Regarding the hall of fame, that is a given... Again, I consider them all-time greats... Everything else is your opinion and you are entitled to it anyone will pale in comparison with Jordan, but really, to even suggest that those three aren't even on his 'level' is crazy.Is it crazy??? I dont think so... I can list you SEVERAL other guys that I think are above Barkley, Malone, and Stockton if you would like... Basically, they are the players with similiar career numbers that have won championships... they were his peers and gave him some of the toughest competition he ever saw. really, in Jordan's era, how many other teams won a Finals? uh, zero? So the fact that Jordan was so good means the guys that couldn't get it done get a free pass... Please, not here!!! And several other teams won NBA championships during Jordan's years!!! yeah. does Ewing compare to Horace Grant or Cartwright?Ugh... I told you already that this is based on a teams best guy or best guys... It was not Horace Grant's Bulls but it was Ewing's Knicks or what about him compared to Hakeem? do you still think he wasn't one of the best centers ever?Why wouldnt I think he was one of the best centers ever??? He won two championships and had great numbers... Of course I do!!!

fact is, the guys I mentioned were true leaders and motivators that had the ability to make their entire teams better. and they generally had no one else on their team. now, if that isn't an AMAZING accomplishment, I don't know what is... I guess you dont know what is

Jordan's titles don't mean anything, in terms of individual play...That statement is BS I don't give a shit what his team did. I'm talking from a pure talent, grit and leadership level (which Barkley, Malone and Stockton all favorably compare to Jordan, as much as one could). Jordan had entire teams constructed around him...without Pippen, Rodman, Harper or Kerr he wouldn't have half the titles he does. This could be said about all championship teams, as it isn't one versus 12... That is common sense stuff... Of course his team helped him get those titles, but do you really think any other guy plopped into that supporting cast could have won like he did???those three did more with less than anyone else I've seen, did amazing things, played team ball, won MVPs...as individuals, they are TRUELY all-time greats, which is what matters.In your opinion, that is what matters. In my opinion, that PLUS the ability to win a championship matters. There's 11 other guys on the damn team, you know...seriously, do you think Bonds never winning a title hurts his chances at being an all-time great? of course not.AGAIN, I didnt say that guys that didnt win keeps them from being one of the all time greats, but AGAIN, those with similiar numbers that did win should be considered better. it's about the PLAYER. not the team. without the other guys, Jordan wouldn't have won...had other players been surrounded with his supporting cast, I'm sure they could have.I guess you answered my question as to whether or not you were suggesting that... Who knows if they could have or not... Fact of the matter is that those guys own no rings, and I think that keeps them from being spoken of in the same breath as the guys that put up career numbers similiar to them and DID win...

and the insults are really childish and kind of uncalled for. we're all Mavericks fans here.The insults were directed mainly at Pooh, but try to remember who took this thread down the path of insults... I was simply taking up for Alby and making my point after you bashed her with INSULTS... My point is common sense and I dont get how either you or Pooh have a leg to stand on in this discussion... The argument, AGAIN, is simple, and is as follows: PLAYER A AVERAGES 25 AND 10 AND HAS 3 RINGS... PLAYER B AVERAGES 26 AND 11 AND HAS 0 RINGS... PLAYER A IS BETTER... We are all Mavs fans though, so in the spirit of Mavs, lets just agree to disagree on this topic...

[poohrichardson]

If someone tells me..
"A player isn't truely great unless I can jack off looking at his career stats and championship history"
I will just laugh at them. That's essentially what you're saying.

Winning a championship is the absolute pinnacle of team sports.. but that doesn't mean individual talent has to be based on championship success because let's face it.. Jordan is the best ever, but he also has a supporting cast that complemented his game perfectly. Barkley carried a pretty shitty Suns team on his back to the Finals, and what? Because he couldn't beat Jordan, he isn't an all-time great? That's the biggest load of horse shit I've ever heard in my life.. everyone that says you need a championship and **STATS** to be a truely great player is just incapable of watching and interpreting the game of basketball. Would Larry Bird not be a true great if he didn't fuel the Celtics to championships in the 80s? How about Magic? How about Dr. J? That's just bullshit. A championship just adds to a single player's accolades and accomplishments; it does not make them or break them as a true "GREAT." To think it does is just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

"Pooh, you can't read."

Is that why I can tell you I think you're wrong, only for you to repeat the same bullshit over and over and over again?

KEEP TO THE TOPIC AND LAY OFF THE PERSONAL INSULTS - Dallas-Mavs.com Mod

[endtroducing]

it WAS one of the stupidest things i've ever heard. i didn't say the person was dumb, just the statement. and it is.

ask anyone who has followed basketball and they'll tell you the same thing I've said. a championship has absolutely nothing to do with how good a single player is.

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: poohrichardson
If someone tells me..
"A player isn't truely great unless I can jack off looking at his career stats and championship history"
I will just laugh at them. That's essentially what you're saying.

Winning a championship is the absolute pinnacle of team sports.. but that doesn't mean individual talent has to be based on championship success because let's face it.. Jordan is the best ever, but he also has a supporting cast that complemented his game perfectly. Barkley carried a pretty shitty Suns team on his back to the Finals, and what? Because he couldn't beat Jordan, he isn't an all-time great? That's the biggest load of horse shit I've ever heard in my life.. everyone that says you need a championship and **STATS** to be a truely great player is just incapable of watching and interpreting the game of basketball. Would Larry Bird not be a true great if he didn't fuel the Celtics to championships in the 80s? How about Magic? How about Dr. J? That's just bullshit. A championship just adds to a single player's accolades and accomplishments; it does not make them or break them as a true "GREAT." To think it does is just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

"Pooh, you can't read."

Is that why I can tell you I think you're wrong, only for you to repeat the same bullshit over and over and over again?

KEEP TO THE TOPIC AND LAY OFF THE PERSONAL INSULTS - Dallas-Mavs.com Mod

Whatever dude... I am going to play VERY nice today because of the mod warning in your post... Normally I would rip you a new cornhole, but frankly, your not worth it!!! If you don't get what I'm trying to say, fine... I dont have to have every person on this board agree with me, (wouldn't that make for shit conversations), so again, whatever!!!

By the way, lets make a pact... If you want to rip me or be overly sarcastic about something I have said, please do so in PMs, and I will respond accordingly... If you continue to chime in with your "funny" comments about what I have posted, we will continue to drag every thread down that we post in... So how about we just play nice in public for all the kiddies to see and then whenever we need to, we can tell each other how we really feel in PMs...

Sound good???

[endtroducing]

do you consider Payton one of the great point guards to ever play in the NBA?

[poohrichardson]

Originally posted by: Male23Dan

Whatever dude... I am going to play VERY nice today because of the mod warning in your post... Normally I would rip you a new cornhole, but frankly, your not worth it!!! If you don't get what I'm trying to say, fine... I dont have to have every person on this board agree with me, (wouldn't that make for shit conversations), so again, whatever!!!

By the way, lets make a pact... If you want to rip me or be overly sarcastic about something I have said, please do so in PMs, and I will respond accordingly... If you continue to chime in with your "funny" comments about what I have posted, we will continue to drag every thread down that we post in... So how about we just play nice in public for all the kiddies to see and then whenever we need to, we can tell each other how we really feel in PMs...

Sound good???

I don't get why you don't understand that I too have the right to my own opinion. You think that since I don't agree with what you're saying, it means that I can't comprehend it. That's the only reason you piss me off sometimes.

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: endtroducing
it WAS one of the stupidest things i've ever heard. i didn't say the person was dumb, just the statement. and it is.

ask anyone who has followed basketball and they'll tell you the same thing I've said. a championship has absolutely nothing to do with how good a single player is.

Not to keep harping on this ET, but seriously man... You are wrong... I personally have heard Barkley comment on NUMEROUS occassions that he wishes he could have won a championship and wishes that he and his team were good enough to do so... Here is a personal quote from that Clintcam.com/Barkley website:

"That's the biggest disappointment for me, a guy who would kill (to win a championship). I would kill you two (EJ & Kenny) to win a Championship...I think that's the difference between young guys and older guys. I would have killed to play with superstars...two guys in their prime like Michael and Scottie, Bird and McHale, Magic and Kareem. That's the difference, guys today are more concerned with who's running the team, who's taking all the shots and not winning championships."

Now does he say: "I was not a good player because I didnt win a championship"??? No, he doesn't... And again, that is because it isn't true... But if you asked him, (and many others, I just picked him because his quotes are easy to find where others are more quiet), whether he would consider a guy with his same numbers and with championships a better overall player, I guarantee you he would say yes... So would many others... How can a guy look you straight in the face and say he is better than you if your numbers are identical to him plus you have rings... I just don't understand how this fails to make sense to you two...

I respect the differences in our opinions though, and I will just leave it at that...

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: poohrichardson

I don't get why you don't understand that I too have the right to my own opinion. You think that since I don't agree with what you're saying, it means that I can't comprehend it. That's the only reason you piss me off sometimes.

I know you do dude, but seriously, that is not why I say you cant comprehend it... I hope you know that... The reason I say that is because you honestly do say something in a post that I have already clarified in another post... Im not trying to be a dick here, but Im serious... You have done that now anywhere from 5-8 times... I know you can read and I know you can comprehend stuff... But it is very annoying in the middle of an argument when you accuse my opinion of things that I have already explained above...

Anyway... Lets just say this... I think that there are different levels of great players based on numbers and championships, and you and ET do not!!! That work for you???

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: endtroducing
do you consider Payton one of the great point guards to ever play in the NBA?

Yes I do consider Payton to be one of the best point guards to ever play in the NBA... He is not on the level of those that have put up similiar career numbers and HAVE won championships, but he is definitely a hall of fame guy with great career stats!!! We are definitely doing a merry-go-round thing here aren't we???

[endtroducing]

what about Fisher and Monroe? similar stats in their championship years, but Fisher's got more rings. who's better?

also, statistically, Payton has outperformed Monroe in nearly every category, but Monroe has one ring. Payton's been to the Finals at least twice, but he doesn't have a ring. who do you consider better?

[Male30Dan]

See... This is what I mean... You guys dont read carefully enough before you post... I said in a post DIRECTLY TO YOU: "Ugh... I told you already that this is based on a teams best guy or best guys... It was not Horace Grant's Bulls but it was Ewing's Knicks."

This is why you can't compare Fisher to Monroe in my example... To ask questions like that is just flat nitpicking and frankly, reaching...

Regarding "The Pearl" vs. "The Glove" I say hands down Gary was the better player, (but this isn't really fair, because you are comparing a PG to a SG - Earl always had other guys dishing the ball like Lucas and Frazier)... Keep in mind that when Monroe won a title he had Walt, Dave, and Bill all scoring more than him with Willis and Jerry all close behind...

Please don't nitpick and please dont reach... If you want your opinion respected, do the same for me rather than trying to find a crack every place you can!!!

[alby]

the players themselves even make the claim that without ever winning a championship, they can not compare themselves to those who have. being the greatest is someone who is capable of making their entire team better willing them over the top. barkley said it, malone sold out on the jazz because of this fact.. without 6 championships, mj would just be known as an unbelievable offensive force and an incredible talent who never won the big one. why do you think MVP awards mainly go out to players whose teams have winning records and are in contention for a title. barkley put up the same numbers while he was a 76er but didnt get recognized until he put up those same numbers on a 62-20 squad in 1992-93.

previous mvp:
1992-93 - Barkley - 60-22 lost in finals
1993-94 - Hakeem - 58-24 won in finals *
1994-95 - Robinson - 62-20 lost in wcf
1995-96 - Jordan - 70-12 won in finals *
1996-97 - Malone - 64-18 lost in finals
1997-98 - Jordan - 62-20 won in finals *
1998-99 - Malone - 37-13 lost in wcsf
1999-00 - Shaq - 56-26 won in finals *
2000-01 - Iverson - 56-26 lost in finals
2001-02 - Duncan - 58-24 lost in wcsf
2002-03 - Duncan - 60-22 won in finals *
2003-04 - Garnett - 58-24 lost in wcf

all these players can be classified as "all-time greats"
but.. awarding great players in the game go out to those who win.
awarding GREATEST players in the game go out to those who win championships.

all-time, top tier players fall into two categories: great and greatest

great: malone, stockton, barkley, ewing, nique, payton,
greatest: jordan, magic, bird, kareem, wilt, russell, hakeem, dr

[endtroducing]

Originally posted by: Male23Dan
See... This is what I mean... You guys dont read carefully enough before you post... I said in a post DIRECTLY TO YOU: "Ugh... I told you already that this is based on a teams best guy or best guys... It was not Horace Grant's Bulls but it was Ewing's Knicks."

This is why you can't compare Fisher to Monroe in my example... To ask questions like that is just flat nitpicking and frankly, reaching...

Regarding "The Pearl" vs. "The Glove" I say hands down Gary was the better player, (but this isn't really fair, because you are comparing a PG to a SG - Earl always had other guys dishing the ball like Lucas and Frazier)... Keep in mind that when Monroe won a title he had Walt, Dave, and Bill all scoring more than him with Willis and Jerry all close behind...

Please don't nitpick and please dont reach... If you want your opinion respected, do the same for me rather than trying to find a crack every place you can!!!

the Knicks weren't Monroe's team, the Lakers weren't Fisher's team. Fisher had Shaq, Monroe had Reed...both Monroe and Fisher were point guards. not a reach at all. they played the same role, they didn't carry the load of scoring at all. they weren't asked to.

Monroe's got one ring, Fisher has three. similar numbers in their title year, similar roles, different numbers of titles...

Monroe went to NY to win a title and be a role player, Payton went to LA to win a title and be a role player, and Fisher has been a role player his whole career. almost IDENTICAL numbers in said seasons, even though Payton outclasses both of them in every other season he's played (but doesn't have a ring). so, who's better, Payton, Monroe or Fisher?

I'm not saying titles aren't important, because they are, but I don't think it defines how good the player is at the game of basketball. that's the first and foremost thing, to me at least, when you talk about being an all-time great, which is an individual accolade. that's what I'm trying to prove here.

[V2M]

I agree with Male23Dan and Alby on this topic. There are many great players but a few of 'em are considered greater among the greats. Those are the ones who've won championships.

Malone, Stockton, Payton, Barkley, Ewing, etc., are all no doubt Hall of Fame bound. But I would never ever put 'em on par with Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, etc.

Question to ET and PR: Who'd you pick to quarterback your team, Joe Montana or Dan Marino... and why?

[poohrichardson]

Originally posted by: V2M
I agree with Male23Dan and Alby on this topic. There are many great players but a few of 'em are considered greater among the greats. Those are the ones who've won championships.

Malone, Stockton, Payton, Barkley, Ewing, etc., are all no doubt Hall of Fame bound. But I would never ever put 'em on par with Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, etc.

Question to ET and PR: Who'd you pick to quarterback your team, Joe Montana or Dan Marino... and why?

That's just a different story.. because Super Bowl rings or not, I just plain think Montana was better. It has absolutely nothing to do with Marino's lack of a championship.

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: endtroducing
The Knicks weren't Monroe's team, the Lakers weren't Fisher's team. Fisher had Shaq, Monroe had Reed...both Monroe and Fisher were point guards. not a reach at all. they played the same role, they didn't carry the load of scoring at all. they weren't asked to.

Monroe's got one ring, Fisher has three. similar numbers in their title year, similar roles, different numbers of titles...

Monroe went to NY to win a title and be a role player, Payton went to LA to win a title and be a role player, and Fisher has been a role player his whole career. almost IDENTICAL numbers in said seasons, even though Payton outclasses both of them in every other season he's played (but doesn't have a ring). so, who's better, Payton, Monroe or Fisher?

I'm not saying titles aren't important, because they are, but I don't think it defines how good the player is at the game of basketball. that's the first and foremost thing, to me at least, when you talk about being an all-time great, which is an individual accolade. that's what I'm trying to prove here.

Again, you just dont get my point here... My point is that this ENTIRE ISSUE does not play a part for role players or guys that just jump on for the ride... Im talking about guys like Barkley, Malone, Payton, etc... WHEN THEY WERE THE LEADER OF THEIR TEAMS... Barkley with Philly and Phoenix... Malone with the Jazz... Payton with Seattle... Players that, when in their prime, and with their teams, could not get it done... Those are the guys that fall short of the guys in their same situation that COULD get it done... So YES, you are reaching when you start looking at guys like Derek friggin Fisher... And I hate to tell you, but Derek Fisher did NOT have similiar numbers to Monroe during his championship year, (which by the way was one of Earl's worst years statistically)...

Fisher's averages during the Lakers 3 titles:

9.6ppg
3.2apg
2.3rpg

Monroe's average during the Knicks title:

15.5ppg
3.8apg
3.3rpg

I mean come on... Fisher is a career 7.4ppg guy while giving you 3apg... And you don't think this is reaching by comparing him to Monroe at a career 18.8ppg while giving you 3.8apg, (and he was a shooting guard in a point guard's body)... Yeah... REAL SIMILIAR!!!

And by the way... I said that Payton was better in my opinion that Monroe, but dont say that he outclassed him every year... Monroe put up some good numbers early in his career... Payton has never put up 26ppg in a season, and in fact, the only reason I chose Payton over Earl was because of his assist numbers and steals... Payton is a career 18ppg guy, LOWER than Monroe!!!

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: poohrichardson

That's just a different story.. because Super Bowl rings or not, I just plain think Montana was better. It has absolutely nothing to do with Marino's lack of a championship.

But I dont think you would have said that if the shoe were on the other foot, and Marino had led his team to multiple Super Bowl titles... You may not see that, but I dont know how you wouldn't considering that Marino owns most of the records and all Montana has on him is the titles!!! I think if Marino would have won multiple Super Bowls, there would not even be a SLIGHT QUESTION as to who is the best QB in the history of the game... As it stands, despite the records Marino holds, there is definitely debate as to who the best ever is at QB!

[endtroducing]

Originally posted by: Male23Dan

Again, you just dont get my point here... My point is that this ENTIRE ISSUE does not play a part for role players or guys that just jump on for the ride... Im talking about guys like Barkley, Malone, Payton, etc... WHEN THEY WERE THE LEADER OF THEIR TEAMS... Barkley with Philly and Phoenix... Malone with the Jazz... Payton with Seattle... Players that, when in their prime, and with their teams, could not get it done... Those are the guys that fall short of the guys in their same situation that COULD get it done... So YES, you are reaching when you start looking at guys like Derek friggin Fisher... And I hate to tell you, but Derek Fisher did NOT have similiar numbers to Monroe during his championship year, (which by the way was one of Earl's worst years statistically)...

Fisher's averages during the Lakers 3 titles:

9.6ppg
3.2apg
2.3rpg

Monroe's average during the Knicks title:

15.5ppg
3.8apg
3.3rpg

I mean come on... Fisher is a career 7.4ppg guy while giving you 3apg... And you don't think this is reaching by comparing him to Monroe at a career 18.8ppg while giving you 3.8apg, (and he was a shooting guard in a point guard's body)... Yeah... REAL SIMILIAR!!!

And by the way... I said that Payton was better in my opinion that Monroe, but dont say that he outclassed him every year... Monroe put up some good numbers early in his career... Payton has never put up 26ppg in a season, and in fact, the only reason I chose Payton over Earl was because of his assist numbers and steals... Payton is a career 18ppg guy, LOWER than Monroe!!!

I compared Monroe's title season to Fisher's title season in 2000...

and yeah, I would have Marino over Montana.

[Male30Dan]

I compared Monroe's title season to Fisher's title season in 2000...

and yeah, I would have Marino over Montana.

Nice of you to pick his most productive year of the three, (way more productive than his career averages and conveniently lower for Monroe than almost all other years)!!! Agree with me or not, but it was a poor comparison!

But you have told me all I need to know if you pick Marino...

And introducing Endtroducing's starting 5.....

Stephon Marbury
Allen Iverson
Tracy McGrady (we will include him as a 3 even though he primarly is a 2)
Chris Webber
Shaquille O'Neal

Hey, at least they can all put up numbers, right??? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[poohrichardson]

Originally posted by: Male23Dan

Nice of you to pick his most productive year of the three, (way more productive than his career averages and conveniently lower for Monroe than almost all other years)!!! Agree with me or not, but it was a poor comparison!

But you have told me all I need to know if you pick Marino...

And introducing Endtroducing's starting 5.....

Stephon Marbury
Allen Iverson
Tracy McGrady (we will include him as a 3 even though he primarly is a 2)
Chris Webber
Shaquille O'Neal

Hey, at least they can all put up numbers, right??? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

I think you use the word "stats" in almost every argument that you ever get involved in... endtroducing and I are the ones that seem to understand that the numbers don't mean a damn thing...

[alby]

end of discussion, im through.. lol

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: poohrichardson

I think you use the word "stats" in almost every argument that you ever get involved in... endtroducing and I are the ones that seem to understand that the numbers don't mean a damn thing...

Wow... You must feel pretty silly right now huh??? Numbers don't mean a damn thing??? THAT IS WHAT YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT IS ABOUT while our, (Alby and I), argument is about numbers AND championships... I know both of you guys threw in extra terms, (legacy, skill, determination, etc...), but you still are pointing out that you can't discredit Stockton's assists and Malone's points due to the lack of a championship... I agree with you Alby, I am through with this dude... Wow...

[Male30Dan]

One more post... WOW...

[Male30Dan]

Can't.... seem... to.... stop...... myself.......

So now stats AND championships dont mean shit...

Now its all about grit!!!

LMAO!!!

Wow...

[poohrichardson]

Originally posted by: Male23Dan

Wow... You must feel pretty silly right now huh??? Numbers don't mean a damn thing??? THAT IS WHAT YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT IS ABOUT while our, (Alby and I), argument is about numbers AND championships... I know both of you guys threw in extra terms, (legacy, skill, determination, etc...), but you still are pointing out that you can't discredit Stockton's assists and Malone's points due to the lack of a championship... I agree with you Alby, I am through with this dude... Wow...

Umm, actually I didn't ever say anything about stats myself. I judge basketball players by how good of competitors they are, not points scored or championships won. You're putting words in my mouth that that's just ragingly lame.

[Male30Dan]

Yawn... Whatever dude... You go right ahead and pick the Bruce Bowen's and Ron Artest's of the world, as they are obviously the BEST COMPETITORS... You are running out of things to respect a player for... And if you are going to lump yourself with ET, who DID talk about stats, dont feel bad when I lump the two of you back together... I think you said: endtroducing and I are the ones that seem to understand that the numbers don't mean a damn thing... Of course, this all goes back to the reading thing, huh???

Yawn...

[jayC]

No ifs, ands or's about it. Duncan makes the other players around him better. He has two NBA titles and two mvps.

[dalmations202]

Dispute over Duncan wins 46-9...............................