Mavs beat'in to the punch

[cripple balls]

Phoenix is making the moves the mavs should be making. Kurt Thomas and Raja Bell should be Mavs next year. There are only so many players who can play D and also shoot a decent field goal percentage. I thought Cubes would give us an advantage over our Western Conference rivals when it came to free agency. So far i dont see it. Maybe Free agents dont want to play with Dirk. F-me

[EricaLubarsky]

who cares?

[grndmstr_c]

Horray!!! More Raja Bell threads!!!

Where's sike or u2? We need an over/under on how many new threads get started about spare 2/3's who aren't fit to be anything more than the 4th guy in a 2/3 rotation on a good team that the Mavs don't blow their pants out for in the first 15 minutes of free agency.

[Captain Disaster]

I sure hope the Mavs can pull SOMETHING off this summer. They haven't done too well the last few summers. I wonder how much imput Avery is having?

[jayC]

The offseason just started.

[chumdawg]

Season's over.

[cripple balls]

Originally posted by: Captain Disaster
I sure hope the Mavs can pull SOMETHING off this summer. They haven't done too well the last few summers. I wonder how much imput Avery is having?

wow, and they say there's no intelligent life out there.

[Lebanese_Fan]

For crying out loud, stop bashing the Mavs. We are so talented that if we do nothing, we can still win. Howard will probably be an all-star type player next year, Daniels will improve, and Harris will improve. Hopefully DJ and dirk will also improve. We are young enough to watch put guys improve and gel together and see them win a ring.

[The Miles]

Raja is pretty damn good, the Suns really did well today. He is elite defensively, something I wish our SG could be, he is tough, and he has gotten a lot better offensively. 12 ppg, 45% FGs, 41% from behind the arc. Sucks that we missed out on him, he would be an upgrade here.

[grndmstr_c]

he would be an upgrade here

An upgrade over what?

And I have to say that all the talk about Raja as being some sort of defensive monster...I just don't see it. He's undeniably a very agressive and competitive defender, but I'm just wondering, if he's such a good defender, why is it that each of the last three years he's had a negative defensive net +/-?

Don't get me wrong, I think he's probably a nice pickup for the Suns. But it's not because he's any kind of world-beater. It's because he won't be asked to be anything more than the 4th guy in their 2/3 lineup, and that's the role I think he's best suited to play.

[The Miles]

An upgrade in our starting lineup or our bench, wherever Avery wanted him Raja has a lot of the same characteristics as guys like Bruce Bowen and Rick Fox, ie guys that know their role, defend their butts off, are tough, hit open 3s (Raja 41%), and can score some. Raja is actually a better scorer than Bowen.

[EricaLubarsky]

Bowen helps his team hold opponents to 1.5 fewer points per 100 posessions and has a moderate impact on the opposing team's shooting percentage.

Bell hurts his team at PP100, by a margin of 3.3, and opponents shoot singificantly better while he is on the floor.

Opponents also shoot more FTs when he is out there, as well as rebounding a tiny bit better.

Just to specify the stats that GMC was talking about.

[Pirate]

where does one find such stats? can you toss a specific link up here?

[EricaLubarsky]

82games.com

[Pirate]

but where on there ..that has a million pages of stats

whats the link to the page that shows raja's defense, for example?

[EricaLubarsky]

you'd go to the team and then click on him specifically.

[poohrichardson]

Geez, it's a good thing that GMs don't look at 82games.. they'd miss the things that make players like Raja Bell worth having..

"Oh no, some website is able to twist stats so Bell has a negative net +/- per 100 posessions! Shit, why did we have to ink him without making sure of that beforehand?"

Bottom line, if you watched the Jazz last year, and the year before, and the Mavs the year before that, and still think Raja is a defensive liability (as your precious stats seem to infer), I just really have a lot of pity for you.

And Bowen suddenly isn't a great defensive player? Yeah right, pass the bong!

There are ways of twisting stats to make Michael Finley look like this generation's Clyde Frazier (several of which have been prominently featured on these forums), but if you're a basketball fan with two functioning eyes, you'd realize that it simply isn't true. Finley is 50x more likely to get lit up by a great scorer than Bell and Bowen.

Am I the only one who doesn't get the point of per-48 minutes or net +/-, and all of that garbage? That's all stupid shit that's taken out of context. Bell can flat out play great defense. He was a good pickup on a team that needs better defense. That's basketball analysis there, not "omg teh stats sey he's the sux0rz!)

[grndmstr_c]

In that case, pooh, I'd like to hear exactly how you think the +/- stats were twisted to fallaciously support the conclusion that Raja Bell is not a difference maker on the defensive end.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: poohrichardson
Geez, it's a good thing that GMs don't look at 82games.. they'd miss the things that make players like Raja Bell worth having..

"Oh no, some website is able to twist stats so Bell has a negative net +/- per 100 posessions! Shit, why did we have to ink him without making sure of that beforehand?"

Bottom line, if you watched the Jazz last year, and the year before, and the Mavs the year before that, and still think Raja is a defensive liability (as your precious stats seem to infer), I just really have a lot of pity for you.

And Bowen suddenly isn't a great defensive player? Yeah right, pass the bong!

There are ways of twisting stats to make Michael Finley look like this generation's Clyde Frazier (several of which have been prominently featured on these forums), but if you're a basketball fan with two functioning eyes, you'd realize that it simply isn't true. Finley is 50x more likely to get lit up by a great scorer than Bell and Bowen.

Am I the only one who doesn't get the point of per-48 minutes or net +/-, and all of that garbage? That's all stupid shit that's taken out of context. Bell can flat out play great defense. He was a good pickup on a team that needs better defense. That's basketball analysis there, not "omg teh stats sey he's the sux0rz!)

Translation: Raja is a good defensive player because he looks like he's playing good defense, even if the facts don't back it up.

Sounds like putting style over substance. The old "it's not whether you win or lose but how you look doing it" argument. I'd rather look like the suck and win the game, than look like the coolest player in the world and go home a loser. If all the effort and style doesn't translate to a positive affect on the score board, then what the hell good is it? Maybe the NBA should go to a system like women's gymnastics or figure skating where judges give style points instead of counting points for making 2pt, 3pt and FT's.
[img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]

[poohrichardson]

Okay, bear in mind he was also on just about the worst team in the Western Conference last season.. it's obviously probably going to be tough to find great numbers for anybody on that team besides Kirilenko.. although I know you stat hounds probably could.

I still very fondly remember Raja being the best defensive player (by a really large margin) on the best Mavs team we've ever fielded in 02-03..

[grndmstr_c]

Okay, bear in mind he was also on just about the worst team in the Western Conference last season.

Right. Raja was a 28mpg contributor on one of the worst teams in the league last year and his +/- indicates that this really bad team of which he was a part did better when he was riding the pine. Never occurred to you that perhaps that's a red flag worth paying attention to?

I still very fondly remember Raja being the best defensive player (by a really large margin) on the best Mavs team we've ever fielded in 02-03.

Yet none of the stats even come close to supporting that memory.

- The Mavs actually allowed 1.5 points more per 48 minutes with Raja on the floor than off that year.
- By comparison, the Mavs were 5.9 points per 48 minutes better off defensively with Fin on the court than off.
- Whereas the Mavs gave up 93.8 points per 48 with Raja at SG, they allowed only 87.8 per 48 with Fin playing the 2.

[thewillis12]

all that stuff raja brought and all..............didnt we all agree that howard could replace him in all this??

[The Miles]

Yeah, Josh is better than Raja at just about everything but long range shooting. But Raja -vs- our three SGs is a very interesting matchup across the board.

[poohrichardson]

So suddenly Finley is a better defender than Raja Bell? That's very close to the stupidest thing I've ever heard.. ever.

[grndmstr_c]

So suddenly Finley is a better defender than Raja Bell?

No, not suddenly. Finley was a better defender than Raja at least as far back as 2002.

[poohrichardson]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

No, not suddenly. Finley was a better defender than Raja at least as far back as 2002.

That's homerism at its best right there. Bell is without a doubt in my mind among the very elite (we're talking top 10% in the league) as a defender, whereas Finley is probably among the worst defensive starters in the league (behind Steve Nash.. who obviously still finds ways to make his team mates better regardless). I guess that's just the objective opinion from a guy that watches a lot of basketball, though.

[grndmstr_c]

I guess that's just the objective opinion from a guy that watches a lot of basketball, though.

Actually, opinions are pretty much doomed to being subjective by nature, so don't kid yourself. In any case, I'm still waiting for you to explain how the stats managed to get formulated so as to overestimate the defensive impact of one SG and underestimate the impact of another. Or is the best you have the fact that they disagree with your subjective opinion?

[poohrichardson]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Actually, opinions are pretty much doomed to being subjective by nature, so don't kid yourself. In any case, I'm still waiting for you to explain how the stats managed to get formulated so as to overestimate the defensive impact of one SG and underestimate the impact of another. Or is the best you have the fact that they disagree with your subjective opinion?

Okay, perhaps I worded that wrong. I meant it was the subjective opinion from somebody who makes objective observations while watching basketball. One of those opinions is that Raja Bell on a bad day is a far better defender than Michael Finley could ever dream to be.

If you disagree with that, fine. I don't care.

[cripple balls]

For crying out loud, stop bashing the Mavs. We are so talented that if we do nothing, we can still win.

Did you happen to catch the finals ? We are nowhere near that level of defense and team play. Sure, we have a lot of talent, but talent doesn’t mean crap if you can’t play great D and play unselfishly. I like the direction the team is headed with Avery but we are still a few players away. We need and inside scorer and another inside defender, because i don’t think Dirk is ever going to be that. Some people like to underestimate the importance of a key bench acquisition. Would Detroit have made it as far as they did without the pickup of Lindsay hunter ? Would San Antonio be champs without Horry's heroics ? ... Hell no. The best TEAM will win the championship and adding one right piece can make all the difference.

[birdsanctuary]

Haste makes waste! Phoenix should be waiting not signing!

[Five-ofan]

I loved raja bell and still do. He is one of my favorite non-mavs. However this guy is what he is. He is a guy that is a solid 7-8-9th man on a good team. He is not a world-beater. As to his defensive rep, the mavs over the last several years have had several players who were average defenders get a rep on this board or other dallas based places as being stoppers. Griffin, bell, newman etc. None of them were that good. Also if they got him then even if we cut fin i think this means that they cant get finley. Now as much as people here dog fin and some love him(Im not really firmly in either camp) I think we can all agree that Fin is leaps and bounds better than raja bell. As to the suns look at their payroll in 2 years.
Amare-maxed
Marion-maxed
Nash-14 mil
Johnson-12 mil
Raja- 5 mil
Thomas - 9 mil
Jackson- think he will be gone but if not 5 mil

That is roughly 75 mil for 7 players. No resigning barbosa who i think will be pretty good and i was pretty cheap on johnson because with raises he will probably make more than 12. Guessed on what nash's deal would pay that year. Is that team enough to win a title with no other help? i doubt it and you have just made yourself one of the top 3 most expensive teams in the league. Also this means that stephen hunter is gone. He will get around the mle. As to the top 10 percent of defenders? Dont know about what you consider top 10% but that would mean being in the top 3 or 4 defenders at the two in the league. That he is not. Bowen, Hughes, pierce, wade, kobe, manu, rip just off the top of my head are clearly better defenders at the 2 spot than he is. Anyone that questions hughes on that list did not watch any wizards games last year. I know he had a lot of steals and thats why he made the all defensive team but thats not why i rated him so highly he is just that good.

[Lebanese_Fan]

Johnson will sign a max offer with atlanta, so the suns either match or they don't.
HAHA, i am so happy. The suns are gonna be screwed whatever happens.