Lakers vs. Phoenix Thread

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Did you say "come into his own" or "push the opposing players to the floor"?

Diaw pulled his arm and sold it.

[rakesh.s]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Rakesh, don't be stupid..you're better than that.

yeah, i know ...but you gotta admit that Phil Jackson is a freakin genius. He is pounding the ball into Odom and Brown and they are absolutely refusing to run with the suns.

[WraithXx]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Luckily the Deuce has the Kings game. I was fixin' to go WraithX on somebody.

lmao... I love you for that

[raefformvp]

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

That Luke Walton.... he's, um........ not a very attractive human being. I think he capitalizes on the timeout breaks so he can call back his momma and beg to be beaten again with the ugly stick.

Well, look at his dad. Apple/tree...also, have you ever seen Bill Walton's mother? Oh my. Poor woman. Looks just like Bill, except she's a woman. Ouch. In Luke's defense, he does have pretty eyes.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I wouldn't go so far as to call Dirk a pussy but rakesh hit on something that's annoyed me for the past year. Dirk needs to give a hard (and by hard I mean borderline flagrant) foul on Nash if we face them in the playoffs. Like Magic slamming Isiah early in the first Lakers/Pistons series it would send a message to his teammates.

Plus the Suns appear to be less than effective in a series where emotions run high.

Would you, however, approve of a mouth-to-cheek kiss in the pre-game handshakes?

[jleefilled]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Would you, however, approve of a mouth-to-cheek kiss in the pre-game handshakes?

NO!!! : )

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Would you, however, approve of a mouth-to-cheek kiss in the pre-game handshakes?

No doubt, that was gay but the body slam made up for it.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by raefformvp

Well, look at his dad. Apple/tree...also, have you ever seen Bill Walton's mother? Oh my. Poor woman. Looks just like Bill, except she's a woman. Ouch. In Luke's defense, he does have pretty eyes.

DUUUUNNNN, dun, dun, dunnnnn, DUN...dun, DUN, DUN, DUUUUUNNN, DUNNNNNN....dun, DUN...dun, DUN...dun, DUN

[dirno2000]

If I didn't know better I'd say that Shawn Marion is on a mission to prove just how valuable he his. Replace Marion with an average SF/PF (about what he's playing like now) and the Suns are no better than a 45 win Lakers team.

I imagine the effect would be about the same if you replaced nash with and average to above PG...say Jason Terry.

[chumdawg]

Brutal, juice. You can't seriously be suggesting that. Goes contrary to...like, everything.

[dirno2000]

I've said it before...Marion is just as valuable as Nash. While Nash exploits the mismatches, Marion causes them.

You can't successfully run that small ball system if you don't have a 6'7 SF who can:
1) Rebound like a 4/5
2) Block shots like a 4/5
3) Guard the opossing 2-4 and sometimes 5
4) Rack up steals like a 1

You need Marion to be Marion (just like you need Nash to be Nash) for that system to work. I don't care what Nash does, if Marion doesn't pick it up they're going down.

[chumdawg]

I give you the task of finding another Marion and finding another Nash. Which task do you finish first?

I realize we are in circular argument here, but I, I for one, think it is clear that Nash can do it without Shawn Marion in specific. We can look at Diaw, for example. What role did he play in Atlanta, versus his role now?

Or we can look at Nash's former teams. Did he have Marion on his Mavericks teams? Well, no, he didn't. Did he quarterback the best offesne in the league? Well, yes, he did.

All Nash needs is a willing a GM. Don't try to fit a square peg in a round hole. Don't give him a slow-footed center. Don't give him perimeter players who can't hit the side of a barn. Basically, if you can beat those two criteria, you are good.

You see Marion and you laud Marion. But if Marion left tomorrow, Diaw could do that. Or someone else they would get could do that. I mean, c'mon on. What did anyone think James Jones would do? Or Raja Bell?

Steve Nash is by FAR the most underrated player on these boards. Not in basketball, by those who should know, though. Among those guys, he was awarded Most Valuable twice.

So keep on with the Marion talk. Trust me, I've heard it many, many times before.

Nice player, Marion. A lot better player playing alongside Steve Nash.

[dirno2000]

I realize we are in circular argument here, but I, I for one, think it is clear that Nash can do it without Shawn Marion in specific. We can look at Diaw, for example. What role did he play in Atlanta, versus his role now?

Wasn’t Marion an All-Star without Nash? Is it possible that Diaw in his 3rd year and in a system geared to his talents was going to make th leap anyway? I mentioned this before but Diaw as the 2nd best player (right behind dirk) at Eurobasket this summer…and he was on a team with Tony Parker. Be careful giving Nash all the credit for that kids development.

Or we can look at Nash's former teams. Did he have Marion on his Mavericks teams? Well, no, he didn't. Did he quarterback the best offesne in the league? Well, yes, he did.

Did the team get better when he left…well yes, it did. Did his best offensive team stall in the playoff and get knocked out by a weak Kings team…well yes they did. And don’t give me the collection of ill fitting parts argument. if you’re going to take credit for the regular season take credit for what came after that.

Edit: It's probably better if I say that our offense has remained very efficient without Nash. The teams overall improvement is due to a number if factors, and some (like rebounding) have nothing to do with the PG position.

You see Marion and you laud Marion. But if Marion left tomorrow, Diaw could do that. Or someone else they would get could do that. I mean, c'mon on. What did anyone think James Jones would do? Or Raja Bell?

Like hell he could. Marion is a physical freak. What have you seen from Diaw that leads you to believe that he could rebound and block shot like Marion? He’s good at what he does but he doesn’t have the athleticism to fill Marion's role. Few do as he’s one of, if not the, quickest leapers in the league.

Steve Nash is by FAR the most underrated player on these boards. Not in basketball, by those who should know, though. Among those guys, he was awarded Most Valuable twice.

Maybe, maybe not but you severely underrate Marion. He’s one of the more unique players in the league and he’s just as essential to what they do as Nash is.

Again, we’re seeing it in this series.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Nice, both Lakers and Kings take care of bidness tonight!!!

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Wasn’t Marion an All-Star without Nash? Is it possible that Diaw in his 3rd year and in a system geared to his talents was going to make th leap anyway? I mentioned this before but Diaw as the 2nd best player (right behind dirk) at Eurobasket this summer…and he was on a team with Tony Parker. Be careful giving Nash all the credit for that kids development.

Yeah, sure that's possible. But of course, if there was no Steve Nash, there would be no system. Personally, I think there are a lot of super-athletic guys in the NBA who don't get to let their talents show. That's really the main reason I love Nash: He's a guy who, if he's on your team, let's the rest of the team's athleticism show.

But I don't mean to dismiss Diaw, regardless. If you noticed, I was saying last postseason that the Suns did not get raped in that trade--and that once they acquired James Jones with the leftovers they were at least as well off.

Athleticism will always find a place in the pro leagues, if the coaches will allow it.

Did the team get better when he left…well yes, it did. Did his best offensive team stall in the playoff and get knocked out by a weak Kings team…well yes they did. And don’t give me the collection of ill fitting parts argument. if you’re going to take credit for the regular season take credit for what came after that.

Oh, I'm about sick and tired of this simpleton's warped logic argument. Honestly, I've heard it so many times that by now it makes it makes me sick. And I expected you to see through it. It goes like this: Did the team get better by replacing Walker with Dampier? Yes, it did. A lot. Did the team get better by replacing Nash with Terry/Harris? No, it did not. It got worse. A lot. Did the sum of all the moves, the aforementioned and others, make the team better? Evidently it did, if you go by games won. But still note that it put them behind where the franchise was two years before.

Like hell he could. Marion is a physical freak. What have you seen from Diaw that leads you to believe that he could rebound and block shot like Marion? He’s good at what he does but he doesn’t have the athleticism to fill Marion's role. Few do as he’s one of, if not the, quickest leapers in the league.

As you yourself said, Diaw is a young kid with tons of upside. Honestly, I I expect that Marion-level is underestimating him. But I'll be glad to concede this point if you like. It makes no difference. Marion is a Sun and is going to be a Sun for quite a while.

Maybe, maybe not but you severely underrate Marion. He’s one of the more unique players in the league and he’s just as essential to what they do as Nash is.

Again, we’re seeing it in this series.

He's NOWHERE NEAR "just as essential" as Nash is, for the simple reason that he needs someone to get him the ball.

If you believe that, then you severely overestimate the quality of average point guard play in this league.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Well said chumdawg. Nash deserves a lot of credit, but he didn't deserve the MVP award as much as Dirk.

[dirno2000]

Yeah, sure that's possible. But of course, if there was no Steve Nash, there would be no system. Personally, I think there are a lot of super-athletic guys in the NBA who don't get to let their talents show. That's really the main reason I love Nash: He's a guy who, if he's on your team, let's the rest of the team's athleticism show.

Of course there are a lot of super athletic guys but with very few exceptions, they’re not as skilled as Marion.

I also don’t agree that the system doesn’t exist without Nash. Plenty of PG's could run that system. Not as well but they could do it. It's probably one of the easier systems to play in if you have the shooters.

Oh, I'm about sick and tired of this simpleton's warped logic argument. Honestly, I've heard it so many times that by now it makes it makes me sick. And I expected you to see through it. It goes like this: Did the team get better by replacing Walker with Dampier? Yes, it did. A lot. Did the team get better by replacing Nash with Terry/Harris? No, it did not. It got worse. A lot. Did the sum of all the moves, the aforementioned and others, make the team better? Evidently it did, if you go by games won. But still note that it put them behind where the franchise was two years before.

I edited my point because I knew how you were going to attack it.

The only thing that’s really germane to this conversation is how the offense performed because like I said, some of the factors that led to the teams improvement had nothing to do with the PG position.

The bottom line is this: we replaced Nash with a PG who could shoot just as well (debatable I know) and who couldn’t make plays. While we lost a little offensive efficiency we still remain in the top five. We were 2nd in the league in offensive efficiency this year. Maybe we weren’t fully utilizing his talents because our offense is just fine without Nash.

I have no idea where you get off saying that the team got a lot worse by replacing Nash with Terry/Harris. How do you even begin to back that up unless you think a lot more of Damp that you’ve let on.

As you yourself said, Diaw is a young kid with tons of upside. Honestly, I I expect that Marion-level is underestimating him. But I'll be glad to concede this point if you like. It makes no difference. Marion is a Sun and is going to be a Sun for quite a while.

His upside has more to do with his skills then the ability to rebound and block shots.

He's NOWHERE NEAR "just as essential" as Nash is, for the simple reason that he needs someone to get him the ball.

If you believe that, then you severely overestimate the quality of average point guard play n this league.

And Nash needs somebody to get the ball to. He ahlso benefits from somebody that can make the other team go small…Marion is a big part of that because he kills most 4's offensively.

But forget about the ball for a minute. If you’re going to play 6’9 Boris Diaw at center, you have to have someone to rebound, block shots and defend and you don’t want it to be Pat Burke. Marion allows them to play that offensive lineup with success because he’s doing things that are normally reserved for big slow guys. Nash is essential but so is the Matrix.

You underrate that guy.

[Thespiralgoeson]

As usual, I agree with D2K. The bottom line is that Marion is the Suns' leading scorer, rebounder, and by a wide margin their best defender. If Nash is the "straw that stirs the drink" as Chum once put it, then Marion is the friggin drink.

[Arne]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

We can look at Diaw, for example. What role did he play in Atlanta, versus his role now?

The first game I saw him play without Nash at the end of the season, he had a triple double...

It's the system and himself that makes Diaw such a good player, not Nash.

[jthig32]

So Chum, we lose a ton on the Nash Terry/Harris exchange according to you. We also lost a ton when Nelson walked out the door, according to you. And of course, while Damp has provided some improvement, certainly he's not making up for both of those detractions.

So where, I ask, are our wins coming from? How are we a better team now than then. And don't even try to bring in WCF and say we're still trying to get back there. This is unquestionably a better, more balanced team than that team.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If Nash is the "straw that stirs the drink" as Chum once put it, then Marion is the friggin drink.

I'm going to go ahead and stay out of this particular Nash argument; but my goodness spiral - poetic genius.

[Murphy3]

Of course, it's easy to find a guy that can lead your team in scoring, rebounding, and be your best defender especially when the guy also shoots for a great percentage from everywhere on the court.

[Mavdog]

this really hurts to say, but it's the truth...

phil jackson is doing a tremendous job with his team, and kobe is acting like a good teammate.

[Murphy3]

He really is. If Kobe would have been less selfish the entire season, this Laker team would have looked alot more imposing going into the playoffs.

However, things worked out perfectly for them. They have the defenseless Suns in the first round with a chance to play Denver or the Clippers in the second round. If the Lakers win, when would be the last time that there was such a miserable second round matchup in the Western Conference?

[endtroducing MASKED]

a Clippers-Lakers matchup in the second round would be great for the NBA. not good for the people who want good basketball, but good for ratings and angles for TV people to come up with.

[Mavdog]

I must be in the minority with the view that the clips are a fairly good team.

brand is strong, has improved his mid range shot. cassell is, and has always been, a tough hard nosed pg with a swagger.

then there is the supporting group of mobley, maggette and kaman...all decent. livingston is going to be a good pg.

dunleavy has them playing good ball, and watching the clips taking down the lakers in rd 2 would be delicious.

[Murphy3]

The Clippers are definitely a good team. However, it's a second round matchup in the Western Conference without a legit title contender. That's a bit rare, isn't it?

[rabbitproof]

I don't know if that is fair. That is saying only Dallas and San Antonio are the legit contenders in the West - which can make sense as they are the only 60+. However, in that sense, it's kind of pointless to talk about a lack of legit contenders when they are only two who qualify. Personally, I would call Dallas and SA the best contenders but I would also disqualify the Clippers as being legit contenders, as a distant 3rd.

If LA can topple Phoenix and the Clippers, all without HCA, I think that also makes them a legit contender. It's not easy to bet against PhilJax in the playoffs.

[nashtymavsfan13]

I really don't think the Lakers are a title contender. They will be really lucky to beat the Suns, even though I think they will. If they somehow manage to beat the Suns, the Mavs will kick their asses, so they aren't a legit title contender.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

I really don't think the Lakers are a title contender. They will be really lucky to beat the Suns, even though I think they will. If they somehow manage to beat the Suns, the Mavs will kick their asses, so they aren't a legit title contender.

If they beat the Suns they will still have to get by the Clippers/Nugs before they could meet the Mavs or the Spurs/Sac. All this forgone conclusion talk is driving me nuts.

[u2sarajevo]

Fearless prediction!!! - If the Lakers win today the NBA will announce the regular season MVP on Tuesday.

[MavsFanFinley]

Phoenix, please get back on track. Dispose of this Laker team.

[dude1394]

I really want to the suns to be exposed as the fun-run team they are.

Go lakers.

[chumdawg]

Honestly, I don't think there's any way the Lakers win this series. The Suns will show their pedigree.

[DirkGoesNuclear]

Shoot! Hubie Brown as game analyst. Biggest nut cradler.

[Five-ofan]

This is the advantage of having the best coach in the history of the sport if not the best coach in the history of sports. I hate the guy but PJ is an incredible friggin coach.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Honestly, I don't think there's any way the Lakers win this series. The Suns will show their pedigree.

You could be right about the Suns (we’ll see in a couple of hours) but I'm puzzled as to why you feel so strongly about the Suns yet continue to discount the Spurs. If we're talking pedigrees the Spurs are a pure breed and the Suns are a mutt.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

If we're talking pedigrees the Spurs are a pure breed and the Suns are a mutt.

...and the Mavs are a Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

I don't know if that is fair. That is saying only Dallas and San Antonio are the legit contenders in the West - which can make sense as they are the only 60+. However, in that sense, it's kind of pointless to talk about a lack of legit contenders when they are only two who qualify. Personally, I would call Dallas and SA the best contenders but I would also disqualify the Clippers as being legit contenders, as a distant 3rd.

If LA can topple Phoenix and the Clippers, all without HCA, I think that also makes them a legit contender. It's not easy to bet against PhilJax in the playoffs.

To make it sound more fair for you, I'll add this:

Unless God strikes down Dirk Nowitzki or Tim Duncan, the Mavs and Spurs are the only legit contenders.

Did I make it fair enough for you?

[rabbitproof]

I am okay with that.

If you want to take it a step further, Dallas is the only legit contender from the West.