Source: Nash to be MVP - Page 5 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangedays

As a Steve Nash-proponent, do you really want to bring defense into the equation? No, I didn't think so.

A cursory glance at the stats will reveal that Dirk had a FAR...FARRRRR superior statistical year when compared to Duncan.

And compared to Kobe? Well, Dirk's eFG%, TS%, FG%, FT%, etc. are all higher. Not to mentioned that his PER is higher...but shucks let's not talk about that. Perhaps you mistook my two criteria for one. Let me list them again for you, in no particular order:

(1) individual dominance
(2) winning team

Where is Kobe's team in the standings?

A cursory glance also reveals that Duncan has been a better all-around player than Dirk every season of their careers except maybe this year -- though Dirk still plays very little defense.

And throw all the numbers you want at me.. I still think Kobe is a far better player than Dirk is, on both sides of the floor.

And perhaps you mistook my criteria for your own.

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I guess so, he's a wonderful distributor. I think if he had to be the single scoring person like kobe/dirk he would suffer quite a bit.

As you just said.. he's a distributor. He's an opportunistic scorer but not a number 1 option. And I've never said he is.

dude1394 · 04-28-2006, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

As you just said.. he's a distributor. He's an opportunistic scorer but not a number 1 option. And I've never said he is.

Nor did I say you did. Just "discussing" his offensive abilities versus dirks. IMO if he had to carry a team offensively he couldn't do it, but dirk/kobe couldn't run a team like steve.

orangedays · 04-28-2006, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

A cursory glance also reveals that Duncan has been a better all-around player than Dirk every season of their careers except maybe this year -- though Dirk still plays very little defense.

Uh...how is this in any way relevant to the MVP award this season?

Quote:

And throw all the numbers you want at me.. I still think Kobe is a far better player than Dirk is, on both sides of the floor.

Here's how this reads:

"No No No! No facts are going to change my mind!!!"

Quote:

And perhaps you mistook my criteria for your own.

Think before you post.

Your post was obviously an attack on my criterion for MVP: (1) individual dominance and (2) winning team.

You cleverly (note the sarcasm) chose to only use individual dominance to compare Dirk and Kobe. Here's the point: Even assuming that Kobe is a better individually dominating player than Dirk - the fact that Dirk's team has won 13 more games makes him a better MVP candidate.

Let me know if you can't understand that.

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangedays

Uh...how is this in any way relevant to the MVP award this season?

Here's how this reads:

"No No No! No facts are going to change my mind!!!"

Think before you post.

Your post was obviously an attack on my criterion for MVP: (1) individual dominance and (2) winning team.

You cleverly (note the sarcasm) chose to only use individual dominance to compare Dirk and Kobe. Here's the point: Even assuming that Kobe is a better individually dominating player than Dirk - the fact that Dirk's team has won 13 more games makes him a better MVP candidate.

Let me know if you can't understand that.

An "attack" on your criteria? How about a difference in opinion?

I understand my right to have a different opinion than you, whereas you are trying to impose your opinion onto me as a fact. I won't let you bully me by allowing you to talk down to me.

Let me know if you can't understand that.

orangedays · 04-28-2006, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

An "attack" on your criteria? How about a difference in opinion?

I understand my right to have a different opinion than you, whereas you are trying to impose your opinion onto me as a fact. I won't let you bully me by allowing you to talk down to me.

Let me know if you can't understand that.

*sigh*

Let's clear this up for you:

In Post #155, I stated that an NBA MVP needs to be an individually dominating player on a winning team. In Post #156, you ignored the 2nd part of my statement and said that, "I don't get how Dirk is more individually dominating than say...Kobe."

In Post #158, I gave you some evidence that could be used to support the argument that Dirk is a more 'dominant player' than Kobe. In Post #161 you went on to say that no matter what the statistics suggest, you'll always believe Kobe is the better player - while providing no substantiation for your opinion.

I don't know what's up with you tonight, but you are off the ball.

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangedays

*sigh*

Let's clear this up for you:

In Post #155, I stated that an NBA MVP needs to be an individually dominating player on a winning team. In Post #156, you ignored the 2nd part of my statement and said that, "I don't get how Dirk is more individually dominating than say...Kobe."

In Post #158, I gave you some evidence that could be used to support the argument that Dirk is a more 'dominant player' than Kobe. In Post #161 you went on to say that no matter what the statistics suggest, you'll always believe Kobe is the better player - while providing no substantiation for your opinion.

I don't know what's up with you tonight, but you are off the ball.

No need to mention that I brought up the fact that Kobe has made the playoffs every year of his career except last year.. or the given fact that Kobe has 3 rings and a scoring title.

This entire thread is just a nice example of you thinking you're smarter than I am and trying to bully me into agreeing with you. All of this "*sigh*, let me explain this to you because you obviously don't get it" is just you smokescreening the fact that you and I disagree and I have every right to disagree with you, and that my opinion is every bit as valid as yours is. Live with it.

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Nor did I say you did. Just "discussing" his offensive abilities versus dirks. IMO if he had to carry a team offensively he couldn't do it, but dirk/kobe couldn't run a team like steve.

Nash does carry the team offensively.. just not always as the leading scorer.

orangedays · 04-28-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

No need to mention that I brought up the fact that Kobe has made the playoffs every year of his career except last year.. or the given fact that Kobe has 3 rings and a scoring title.

Again, how is this at all relevant to this year's MVP discussion?

Quote:

This entire thread is just a nice example of you thinking you're smarter than I am and trying to bully me into agreeing with you. All of this "*sigh*, let me explain this to you because you obviously don't get it" is just you smokescreening the fact that you and I disagree and I have every right to disagree with you, and that my opinion is every bit as valid as yours is. Live with it.

Wrong again. This entire thread is a nice example of you making a facetious claim. Me calling you out on it. You APOLOGIZING, then going on to make more facetious claims. Rinse, repeat.

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangedays

Again, how is this at all relevant to this year's MVP discussion?

Wrong again. This entire thread is a nice example of you making a facetious claim. Me calling you out on it. You APOLOGIZING, then going on to make more facetious claims. Rinse, repeat.

Yeah, just keep telling me that I'm "wrong." You're just being a bully. And it's pretty lame. I said a couple of things that you interpreted as facts, but they were my opinions. I went on to share more opinions and you kept making posts that dissected everything I said in what I feel was a very patronizing manner.

And I think bringing up a legitimate MVP candidate in an MVP discussion is fairly relevant; wouldn't you agree?

orangedays · 04-28-2006, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

Yeah, just keep telling me that I'm "wrong." You're just being a bully. And it's pretty lame. I said a couple of things that you interpreted as facts, but they were my opinions. I went on to share more opinions and you kept making posts that dissected everything I said in what I feel was a very patronizing manner.

I'm telling you that your assessment of this conversation was wrong. But that's irrelevant at this point - let's just let that go. It is not my intent to be a bully and I apologize if I come off as such.

Quote:

And I think bringing up a legitimate MVP candidate in an MVP discussion is fairly relevant; wouldn't you agree?

That's not what you were doing, here are your exact words:

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

"Kobe has made the playoffs every year of his career except last year.. or the given fact that Kobe has 3 rings and a scoring title."

How is THAT relevant to this year's MVP discussion?

For that matter:

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

"Duncan has been a better all-around player than Dirk every season of their careers except maybe this year."

How is THIS relevant to this year's MVP discussion?

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 12:59 AM

Your criteria for an MVP was, unless I understood you incorrectly, a singularly dominant player. I was giving examples of other players that were singularly dominant, such as Kobe and Duncan. It was a slight tangent from the MVP discussion, but so was all of the hall of fame discussion.

This thread is still open for discussion, isn't it? I think all of it has made sense so far.

Male30Dan · 04-28-2006, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

Your criteria for an MVP was, unless I understood you incorrectly, a singularly dominant player. I was giving examples of other players that were singularly dominant, such as Kobe and Duncan.

Surely you understood that he was referring to guys that were dominant THIS year, (which Duncan certainly was not), when referring to the MVP of THIS year...

If not, I guess you simply misunderstood!

orangedays · 04-28-2006, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

Your criteria for an MVP was, unless I understood you incorrectly, a singularly dominant player. I was giving examples of other players that were singularly dominant, such as Kobe and Duncan. It was a slight tangent from the MVP discussion, but so was all of the hall of fame discussion.

We were talking about the MVP situation this year weren't we? The context in which you brought those particular topics up seemed a bit off. The correct context is important, nay, critical in any discussion. But I digress from seeming the bully.

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

Surely you understood that he was referring to guys that were dominant THIS year, (which Duncan certainly was not), when referring to the MVP of THIS year...

If not, I guess you simply misunderstood!

Oh, I was just trying to figure out how exactly his definition of a dominant player was compared with mine. I don't think you could call a guy that has only had one good year or two a dominant player (not that Dirk hasn't been excellent for a few years, but I'm just saying).

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangedays

We were talking about the MVP situation this year weren't we? The context in which you brought those particular topics up seemed a bit off. The correct context is important, nay, critical in any discussion. But I digress from seeming the bully.

I was more referring to what your definition of a dominant player is compared with mine.. and thought comparing players in previous seasons would make it easier for me to see it from your point of view.

Male30Dan · 04-28-2006, 01:11 AM

Well spree, with Orange trying to make a case for Dirk as the MVP of THIS year, I would think he would be primarily comparing stats and "dominance" for this year. If I am wrong, I apologize for butting in.

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 01:41 AM

I was actually looking at the discussion from the Hall of Fame standpoint..

Murphy3 · 04-28-2006, 11:13 AM

From the Hall of Fame standpoint? It would be a total 'shocker' if both Kobe and Dirk aren't in the Hall...

dude1394 · 04-28-2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

From the Hall of Fame standpoint? It would be a total 'shocker' if both Kobe and Dirk aren't in the Hall...

Kobe for sure as he's got championships and gaudy scoring numbers and plays in la-la land.

Dirk will be more problematic unless he wins a ring.

orangedays · 04-28-2006, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

Well spree, with Orange trying to make a case for Dirk as the MVP of THIS year, I would think he would be primarily comparing stats and "dominance" for this year. If I am wrong, I apologize for butting in.

No Dan, you were very right. I think spreedom realizes his misunderstandings now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

Oh, I was just trying to figure out how exactly his definition of a dominant player was compared with mine. I don't think you could call a guy that has only had one good year or two a dominant player (not that Dirk hasn't been excellent for a few years, but I'm just saying).

Nobody thinks that. That wasn't even a topic of discussion. Even if we had touched on it - your point wouldn't be relevant seeing as how it is not applicable to the individual I am supporting (Dirk). We were discussing the MVP award for this season, why would you think that this was even on the table?

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

I was more referring to what your definition of a dominant player is compared with mine.. and thought comparing players in previous seasons would make it easier for me to see it from your point of view.

When I talk about dominant players, I'm talking about individual dominance quantified by statistics. I talked about BOTH individual dominance and winning...for the MVP award...this season.

You brought up TD and Kobe. You talked about their past accomplishments = irrelevant. Dirk has had a better statistical year than TD (significantly so), Dirk's team has won more games than Kobe (significantly so).

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

Your criteria for an MVP was, unless I understood you incorrectly, a singularly dominant player. I was giving examples of other players that were singularly dominant, such as Kobe and Duncan.

No, my criteria for MVP was a singularly dominant player who is on an elite, winning team. Neither TD nor Kobe fit that criteria this season. It wasn't simply a tangent - you were misconstruing the argument entirely. You've done it throughout the course of this thread...I just don't get how you can do it and not realize it...

Final Edit:

And please don't pull the bullying card again - that's not what I'm trying to do here. Just read through the exchange that we had in this thread and tell me you were messing with me or something...because otherwise alot of your responses were nonsensical.

Murphy3 · 04-28-2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Kobe for sure as he's got championships and gaudy scoring numbers and plays in la-la land.

Dirk will be more problematic unless he wins a ring.

I don't see that at all. This is the basketball hall of fame..not MLB hall of fame. Dirk's impact on the game being the best Euro to play in the NBA along with many of his contributions to team Germany will be more than enough to get him into the Hall regardless of whether or not he wins a title.

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 02:35 PM

Well I still do think you've been bullying me quite a bit and obviously I wouldn't feel bullied for no reason. Your remarks like "just tell me you were messing with me" and "he understands his misunderstandings now" are, to me, thinly veiled attempts to talk down to me and it really bothers me that you find that completely out of the question.

orangedays · 04-28-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

Well I still do think you've been bullying me quite a bit and obviously I wouldn't feel bullied for no reason. Your remarks like "just tell me you were messing with me" and "he understands his misunderstandings now" are, to me, thinly veiled attempts to talk down to me and it really bothers me that you find that completely out of the question.

I would really appreciate it, then, if you addressed the meat of the issue (we can start with my previous post).

I can play nice as long as the discussion follows a logical progression.

sixeightmkw · 04-28-2006, 02:39 PM

This is becoming increasingly BORING>

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 02:39 PM

My MVP criteria is different than yours, I guess that's all I have to say with regards to this topic.

orangedays · 04-28-2006, 06:16 PM

If that's the best you can muster then so be it.

spreedom · 04-28-2006, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangedays

If that's the best you can muster then so be it.

I'll just be the lesser of two evils in this discussion and give you the last word. Have fun with it.

dude1394 · 04-29-2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I don't see that at all. This is the basketball hall of fame..not MLB hall of fame. Dirk's impact on the game being the best Euro to play in the NBA along with many of his contributions to team Germany will be more than enough to get him into the Hall regardless of whether or not he wins a title.

We'll just disagree then. Kobe/Nash are locks..dirk isn't.

rabbitproof · 04-29-2006, 09:58 PM

It's fair for people to compare Nash to Stockton because, you know, both will finish their careers as NON-champions.

blahblehblah · 04-29-2006, 09:59 PM

Dirks more a locked to be in the HOF than Nash to win the new nba most resembling James Blunt player award.

Drbio · 04-29-2006, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

It's fair for people to compare Nash to Stockton because, you know, both will finish their careers as NON-champions.

Ouch.

Good one.

sixeightmkw · 05-01-2006, 08:53 AM

they better hurry and give Nash the trophy cause he won't be around ijn the second round to it.

Arne · 05-01-2006, 09:39 AM

Dirk's a lock because of the championshsip he'll win this year...

aexchange · 05-02-2006, 07:40 AM

looks like nash was presented with the mvp award early.

sixeightmkw · 05-02-2006, 07:45 AM

hahahahahahahaah