Well-written "Nash for MVP" article by Skip Bayless

[dirno2000]

For the record, I picked Kobe's team to make the playoffs. I did not pick Nash's. Honestly, did you? I couldn't imagine how, even with Shawn Marion, Nash's team could finish even .500 with Raja Bell and Boris Diaw and Leandro Barbosa and Eddie House and James Jones playing significant minutes.

I hate this argument. Skip didn't realize that Raja Bell has been a three point marksman for the last few years...it didnt' just happen this year. Skip didn't realize that Eddie House and James Jones were deadly 3-point shooters who would flourish in a wide open system. Skip didn't pay attention when Boris Diaw was probably the 2nd best player at Eurobasket 2005 (right behind Dirk) and the Suns play a European style of ball.

So because skip doesn't follow the league closely enough to make informed predictions Nash and his team overachieved.

According to Vegas' over/under the Suns aren't overachieving, they're doing what they were supposed to do.

[Five-ofan]

Look at KJs 1988 season and tell me exactly what steve nash does as well as he did let alone better than him and then we can talk about steve nash being a back to back mvp winner. As to the question previously mentioned about what im arguing against when i said that you dont make people better you just put them in an easier position to succeed, i think dirk does it to almost the same extent nash does while being miles better himself.

[orangedays]

I just looked at his stats...

The best Johnson ever made was All-NBA Second Team, with stats that are around 22 ppg, 11 apg, 4 rpg, 1.3 spg, on 50% shooting from 1988-1991.

The times, they are a-changing.

[Five-ofan]

My point exactly. KJ was better than nash and he never got first team all nba let alone mvp consideration.

[orangedays]

This is unrelated, but I saw Bayless on ESPN this afternoon talking about the playoffs (he had us losing to the Spurs) - the guy is a complete clown. Acts like your average fan - he even said that Kobe would win the MVP. Eh.

[nashtymavsfan13]

I've always disliked Skip Bayless. He's very opinionated, and his opinions are always horrible and very rarely right.

[u2sarajevo]

Skip Bayliss refuses to believe Troy Aikman is married. Or rather, that his marriage is a cover-up for his homosexual tendencies.

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

Skip Bayliss refuses to believe Troy Aikman is married. Or rather, that his marriage is a cover-up for his homosexual tendencies.

cuz he's stupid. he has no buisness being a commentator/sportswriter, he really doesnt know what he's talking about.

[Nemesis]

His side-kick on ESPN is just about as dumb as Bayliss. There are actually posters on this site that I would rather see hosting Cold Pizza than those two morons! Unfortunately, that is not saying alot.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

One other thing. The Suns were in NO WAY "slaughtered" at the hands of the Spurs. You did watch that series, right? (I'm sure that you did.) The Suns were either leading, tied, or within a basket in the final two minutes of every game in that series, save one. Trust me, with different bounces it could have gone the other way.

Dude 4-1 is slaughtered! SCOREBOARD.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by madape

Its yet to be seen who will have the last laugh...

but Nash was laughing pretty damn hard when he Mark Cuban and the Mavericks in last year's playoffs.

This looks like the point you are really trying to make here.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Dude 4-1 is slaughtered! SCOREBOARD.

If you're the kind of guy who knows all he needs to know about a series and the way it is played by simply looking at the game count and not having to watch the games, then yeah, I guess you're right.

You will forgive me, I hope, for seeking a deeper analysis.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

If you're the kind of guy who knows all he needs to know about a series and the way it is played by simply looking at the game count and not having to watch the games, then yeah, I guess you're right.

You will forgive me, I hope, for seeking a deeper analysis.

All it sounds like is coulda', woulda', shoulda'. It's the scoreboard man. At the end of the day they couldn't win more than 1 game. Slaughtered is very apt.

If it was 4-0 then murdered might befit it better. Funny how the pistons didn't get beat 4-1. Those games were close as well if I recall.

[chumdawg]

Are you saying that all series that finish 4-1 are equally played? In the sense that the beaten team got beaten equally bad in all games?

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Are you saying that all series that finish 4-1 are equally played? In the sense that the beaten team got beaten equally bad in all games?

I don't know about Dude, but that's certainly not what I was implying. In both series' (Mavs/Kings in 04 and Suns/Spurs in 05) the opponents were very closely matched, and easily could have gone 7 games. Hell, even the outcome could have been different. But as Dude pointed out, when it was all said and done, the Mavs and Suns couldn't win more than 1 game in those respective series'. When it game to crunch time, when the games were on the line, the Kings and Spurs came out on top 4 out of 5 times. That qualifies as ownership, as in the Kings owned the Mavs, and the Spurs owned the Suns. Those individual games may have been very closely contested, but in the end, the series' were lop-sided.

[chumdawg]

If we decide to toss a coin for twenty bucks, and you win the coin toss, you are more than welcome to the twenty dollars but you are stretching things to get in my face and tell me I had no chance, that I was slaughtered. It may well have happened another way.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

If we decide to toss a coin for twenty bucks, and you win the coin toss, you are more than welcome to the twenty dollars but you are stretching things to get in my face and tell me I had no chance, that I was slaughtered. It may well have happened another way.

Well forgive me, but I hardly consider an NBA playoff series, no matter how closely the opponents are matched, to be a coin toss.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

a team that was on the rise, that had steadily improved each and every season, and that contained two All-NBA players, two MVP candidates, whose games were just beginning to reach the next level..

What? Nash was NOT a MVP player in Dallas. He wasn't even an All-Star his last year here. Maybe if Nellie had used Nash properly then Cuban would have known what he had and would have given him the money. Plus didn't Nash QUIT playing international ball once he signed with Phoenix - something the Mavs had wanted him to do for years? And was the Nash who played for Dallas in the same physical condition as he is now? Didn't Nellie constantly worry about Nash breaking down because of his frail physique?

And as for Nash's MVP chances this season, it hinges on two things. One - he makes his teammates better.

Hollinger said "The most frequently made argument in Nash's favor is that seven Suns are having career-highs in scoring, but this one is an obvious red herring. For starters, one of those seven is Nash himself."

FIVE Mavs are having career-highs in scoring this season (Dirk, Howard, Daniels, Harris, & Diop). Using the same logic, Dirk is making his teammates better too.

The second part of the Nash MVP argument is the fact the Suns survived the Amare injury. Well the Mavs have survived a PLAGUE of injuries this year and Dirk doesn't get any credit for it at all. In fact most coaches would rather have a player go out before the start of the year and miss the season rather than have one, two, and even three players miss long stretches of games. Its easier to gameplan rather than having to make up stuff on the fly all the time. Amare is the better player but the Mavs had an injury list that is really difficult to comprehend. For the Mavs to win 60 games was amazing. Dirk was the MVP this year despite what the voters will ultimately decide.

[chumdawg]

What? Nash was NOT a MVP player in Dallas.

At that time, Dirk wasn't either.

[orangedays]

Apparently Shawn Marion wasn't only the most valuable player on the Suns, he was the runaway most valuable player in the League. Fantasy League that is.

Marion's #1, Dirk's #7, Nash is #9. Next closest Mav is Jet at #38.

Here.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

At that time, Dirk wasn't either.

With Dirk an MVP was in the realm of possibility. He improves his game every year and is a multiple year All-Star.

There is not ONE person on the face of the earth who could have predicted that Nash had an MVP in him. Nobody. Nash didn't even make the All-Star team his final year in Dallas.

So either Nellie blew it by not showing Mark the kind of player that Nash was OR Nash dramatically improved himself after signing with Phoenix. Neither is the fault of Cuban.

[chumdawg]

There is not ONE person on the face of the earth who could have predicted that Nash had an MVP in him. Nobody.

What about that contingent of folks who showed up on his doorstep one July 1, to roll out the red carpet all the way back to Phoenix? Think they had an inclination?

What about Donnie Nelson, who said losing Nash felt like getting punched in the gut?

What about Nellie, whose heart was no longer in it after that colossal flub by Cuban?

Remember, it's not that Cuban decided the Mavs would be better off without Nash. No, not at all. He wanted Nash. Only he wanted Nash at his price, and when he couldn't get him for that he balked and whined like a teenage girl about Nash's agent.

[Five-ofan]

That signing was ridiculed by everyone at the time. I will give phoenix props. They did a great job identifying the perfect player for their system and then doing everything possible to get him. The only problem is that we dont run their system. Their is no reason to suspect that we would have started running it and honestly even if we had, we didnt have the athletes to do so(we have the athletes but not the shooters now) I love steve nash. He is my second favorite non maverick. I give off the impression of being a nash hater because i do think he has become possibly the most overrated player in the nba. That is not the case. I love watching him play. I wish him the best except when he plays the mavs. The problem is there is no feasible objective argument for him as mvp. There was one last year because his team had the best record. Whoever is considered the mvp of the best team always has an argument because that is in and of itself an argument. Honestly i didnt think he should have won it last year but if he wins it this year it will be the worst selection in nba history. Yes HE is having a better year than HE had last year but he didnt win the mvp because of the year he had last year. He won it because of the year the SUNS had and the SUNS arent having as good a year as they had last year. Some people say Nash should win it because he is having a better year than he had last year. That is true. The only problem is there were at least 10 guys who had a better year than steve did last year, last year. Essentially the arguments that led to his being mvp last year preclude him from mvp this year.

[dalmations202]

I guess I'll give my opinion on this one -- one last time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If any DUMB### media writer can give Steve Nash a first place vote after getting shut out in a game that he played over half the minutes in, and his team got blown out by 40+, then someone needs to B@!#$slap him into the real world.

Has any other MVP been shut out in any game during their MVP year, unless it was for injury?

Nash for MVP should be ended by the Media, period.

Not the best team. Not the only All-Star. Not the best scorer. Not a defender. Not the most dominant. Not a two way player. Not a leading scorer. Not a leader in steals (a PG that is 87th). Not Not NOT........

I am tired of hearing that Nash is a contender for MVP. All that does is make the MVP title look rigged, political, and worthless.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

What about that contingent of folks who showed up on his doorstep one July 1, to roll out the red carpet all the way back to Phoenix? Think they had an inclination?

We rolled out the red carpet for Rashard Lewis - how many MVPs has he won? Doesn't every organization roll out the red carpet for prime free agents?

If the Suns thought Nash was a MVP type player then they would have offered him a max-dollar and max-year contract. That's what MVPs make. Since the Suns didn't, they must have thought a LOT of Nash but not at a MVP level.

What about Donnie Nelson, who said losing Nash felt like getting punched in the gut?

Maybe because Nash had said that money wasn't the deciding factor and then made it all about the money?

What about Nellie, whose heart was no longer in it after that colossal flub by Cuban?

If Nellie had run an offense that maximized Nash's talents then we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm glad the fat-assed quiter is gone.

[chumdawg]

If Nellie had run an offense that maximized Nash's talents then we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm glad the fat-assed quiter is gone.

I do not understand. Nash had gaudy stats in Dallas, and so did the offense and the team when he was here. Hell, Nash had a higher PER in '03 than he did last year.

It is nothing less than humorous that you would say Nellie's offense didn't maximize Nash's talents. Hell, Nellie's offense CREATED Nash's talents.

[FINtastic]

I'm not saying that Nellie's offense didn't cater to Nash's ability because it obviously did, but I don't see anything wrong with MFFL's statement that it didn't maximize his ability. I mean seriously, chum, you can't argue every angle pro-Nash. You act like he's always been MVP caliber, and that he was in a system that maximized his talent? Well, then why wasn't he ever considered an MVP in Dallas? Like I said, this isn't a bash on Nellie because he put Nash in a very good system to succeed in, but it didn't fit Nash perfectly like this Phoenix system seems to. I mean seriously, is there any talk of Nash being an MVP on a team like Chicago or Indiana? No way because they don't have coaches that would be willing to run a crazy scheme like D'Antoni is (and to a lesser extent, Nellie).

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I do not understand. Nash had gaudy stats in Dallas, and so did the offense and the team when he was here. Hell, Nash had a higher PER in '03 than he did last year.

It is nothing less than humorous that you would say Nellie's offense didn't maximize Nash's talents. Hell, Nellie's offense CREATED Nash's talents.

14.5 points and 8.8 assists are "gaudy"? That was his last year in Dallas. Those are "nice" stats, not gaudy. Those are the stats of a man who couldn't crack the All-Star game. Those certainly aren't the stats of someone who you suspect has MVP talent.

And you have a weird sense of humor if you don't see that a jump of almost 3 assists per game as something dramatic. Nash jumped from a 47% shooter to a 50% shooter. An extra half board per game. If Nellie had maximized Nash's ability then why the big jump? Either Nellie was doing something wrong or Nash has reinvented himself. Cuban was offering money for a product that was mislabeled.

[rabbitproof]

Honestly, if people really saw some MVP in Nash in 2003, his jock would've been sweated by many more then Phoenix and probably for more then was actually offered by Phoenix. It would've been an open season for a Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett/Shaq type sweepstakes. We're talking maximum deal.

It is what it is. Forward ho!

Credit to Nash for securing the deal and winning a MVP.
Credit to Phoenix for its foresight and incredible turnaround.
Credit to Dallas for overcoming the loss of a future MVP.

Edit: Stock analogy- Google at 85 bux per on the open auction. A lot of people said no way, it's overpriced. It's skyrocketed since and that 85 is looking pretty darn good. Some lost out and some got rich. Today, it's still a good stock but the price is so high that a few even say it's overrated. That doesn't mean it wasn't a good buy then and it also doesn't mean that everybody who didn't invest was an idiot or penny-pinchin'. Just the way a cookie crumbles sometimes.

[madape]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I'm not saying that Nellie's offense didn't cater to Nash's ability because it obviously did, but I don't see anything wrong with MFFL's statement that it didn't maximize his ability. I mean seriously, chum, you can't argue every angle pro-Nash. You act like he's always been MVP caliber, and that he was in a system that maximized his talent? Well, then why wasn't he ever considered an MVP in Dallas? Like I said, this isn't a bash on Nellie because he put Nash in a very good system to succeed in, but it didn't fit Nash perfectly like this Phoenix system seems to. I mean seriously, is there any talk of Nash being an MVP on a team like Chicago or Indiana? No way because they don't have coaches that would be willing to run a crazy scheme like D'Antoni is (and to a lesser extent, Nellie).

He didn't maximize Nash's talent becasue this team's franchise player is Dirk. That being said, Dirk and Nash's games work pretty damn well together. After all, they combined to create what is is arguably the greatest offensive teams in the history of the NBA (those teams are certainly unmatched in the modern era).

[FINtastic]

Exactly, Nellie didn't center his team around Nash because he realized Nash wasn't even the best player on his team at the time. That's a big reason why I don't think Steve Nash is an MVP.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by madape

He didn't maximize Nash's talent becasue this team's franchise player is Dirk.

Amare is the franchise player for the Suns, not Nash.

So why couldn't Nellie get an MVP performance out of Nash?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by MFFL

Amare is the franchise player for the Suns, not Nash.

So why couldn't Nellie get an MVP performance out of Nash?

By that metric, Nash could have NEVER won an MVP in Dallas. Never, as in: not EVER. And, or course, we both know that is true.

We both understand what is going on with MVP voting. But one of us (me) wants to say: hey, look at that Nash, he's so good that when he goes to another team he gets declared the most valuable player of the entire league! And another of us (you) wants to say: that Nash isn't that good a player, he wasn't even the best player on this team.

Point is--bottom line--Steve Nash is damn good. Damn good. We can argue all night about who is more valuable and all the rest, but the point remains that Nash is (rightfully) IN the argument. And he's a guy that Mark Cuban either could not afford or thought he was better off without. If that inspires you, all the devastating injuries that Nash may or may not withstand, like, tomorrow regardless--more power to you. Proudly buy your seat on the Mark Cuban alternative-reality bandwagon!

But if you realize that Steve Nash knows a little something about basketball, and can play a little basketball, at a very, very, very high level...then please...would you please...pretty please, with sugar on top...stop riding Cuban's jock for making such an egregious error?

I know, I know...trust me, I know. He wrote a blog entry afterward. He let you in to the innner workings of an NBA team you know and love. He showed you how he thought Nash was due to break down sooner rather than later. I know all that. I know it made you feel grateful as a fan. But please, if you please, try to retain a sense of objectivity.

Try to recongnize that Cuban was hoodwinked by an agent more clever than he. Try to recognize that Cuban set this franchise back at least one year and, now it looks like, several because of the way he was pwned in those contract negotiations.

Just try to recognize it for what it is.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Oh he does know a little something about basketball, and he does play at a very high level.... Not MVP level... but a high level.

[dirno2000]

Chum why is everyone that thinks letting Nash walk was a sound decision riding Cuban’s nuts? I remember driving to Ft. Worth a couple of years ago to watch our summer league team play China when I heard the news…Steve Nash had agreed to sign with PHX. Needless to say I was shocked that it happened so quickly. Then I heard the contract terms and my first thought was “I’d have let his ass go too”. This was before well before tthe blog and any disparaging comments about Bill Duffy. The player that I saw in 03-04 wasn’t worth that contract. You make decisions based on the available information…sometimes it doesn’t work out. You just hope that in the end you make more good decisions than bad. We’re coming of our most successful regular season in franchise history so I’d say the subsequent decisions have worked out ok.

As for setting the team back, I don’t see it. We had a better regular season and a better playoff run after he left. If anything set us back it was having a coach whose heart wasn’t in it but still showed up to work everyday to collect a paycheck. It’s no coincidence that the team improved when it had a coach that gave a damn.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Edit: Stock analogy- Google at 85 bux per on the open auction. A lot of people said no way, it's overpriced. It's skyrocketed since and that 85 is looking pretty darn good. Some lost out and some got rich. Today, it's still a good stock but the price is so high that a few even say it's overrated. That doesn't mean it wasn't a good buy then and it also doesn't mean that everybody who didn't invest was an idiot or penny-pinchin'. Just the way a cookie crumbles sometimes.

Excellent analogy, rabbitproof. Props to you!

[FINtastic]

chum, I fail to see what any of that has to do with why Steve Nash deserves MVP.

Did Cuban make the right move on that fateful day in July? It's looking like he didn't although Nash's deal isn't even to the point where it was half over so there is still time for Cuban to look okay on the deal. I'm willing to admit though that Cuban may have made the wrong move. At the same time, we tied for the most wins and franchise history and are one of the top contenders for the title so I think we are doing okay for ourselves.

Regardless, I still don't think Nash is an MVP in this league. I just don't. For some reason, every positive thing that happens to the Suns is something Nash did, while any negative thing that happens to the Suns is proof that Nash is MVP. Seriously, shouldn't Mike D'Antoni get some credit for boosting the scoring averages of his players? What about Shawn Marion who does everything for that team (scores, rebounds, blocked shots, you name it) and gets unnoticed. And I'm sorry but after watching Boris Diaw this year (and I've monitored his stats closely because he is on my fantasy team), but that dude can play. I don't think he was "created" by Nash, he was just badly poorly used by Atlanta. The reason he is being widely considered one of the Most Improved Players isn't just because he is scoring more, it's because he also rebounds and passes very well. That's not nash's doing - nash may be good, but he ain't that good. Not mention, Raja Bell had two very solid years in Utah before coming to Phoenix. He's not mincemeat either. So I don't think Phoenix's solid year is all Nash's doing, even though for some reason, Nash is the only one the media wants to give credit for the success of Phoenix.

Try to recognize that Cuban set this franchise back at least one year and, now it looks like, several

Huh? I don't see necessarily how we are set back this year, when we could very well be poised to make a run for the championship. So you are giving up on this year already because of your Nash-love?

[bernardos70]

There's no telling whether Nash would be playing the way he is now if he was still in Dallas, BTW. I think he was out to prove something to Mark Cuban when Mark decided not to give him the contract he was looking for. This point was not made originally by me, but I don't remember who made it. Please feel free to let me know if it was you.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Chum why is everyone that thinks letting Nash walk was a sound decision riding Cuban’s nuts? I remember driving to Ft. Worth a couple of years ago to watch our summer league team play China when I heard the news…Steve Nash had agreed to sign with PHX. Needless to say I was shocked that it happened so quickly. Then I heard the contract terms and my first thought was “I’d have let his ass go too”. This was before well before tthe blog and any disparaging comments about Bill Duffy. The player that I saw in 03-04 wasn’t worth that contract. You make decisions based on the available information…sometimes it doesn’t work out. You just hope that in the end you make more good decisions than bad. We’re coming of our most successful regular season in franchise history so I’d say the subsequent decisions have worked out ok.

As for setting the team back, I don’t see it. We had a better regular season and a better playoff run after he left. If anything set us back it was having a coach whose heart wasn’t in it but still showed up to work everyday to collect a paycheck. It’s no coincidence that the team improved when it had a coach that gave a damn.

Well, Dirno, because that's exactly what it was. If I could give you an analogy, it would be this: After the 1994 season, Troy Aikman's contract was up. GM Jerry Jones carefully analyzed who would be likely to offer Aikman a contract, and how much they could offer. He determined that Pittsburgh was the only team that would come after Aikman. Further, he determined that with their cap space left, Pittsburgh wanted to sign not just one guy, but in fact two. He ran all these numbers and decided just how low a number he could offer Aikman and still be the highest bidder. Yes, Aikman had performed admirably and all of that. But there was no loyalty in this discussion. This was all about how cheaply Jones could negotiate this contract.

So he meets with Aikman on the first day of free agency, and he gives his offer. It seems okay with Aikman. It's a shitload of money, that's for sure. But then, here comes Pittsburgh. They are offering a bit more, and they are putting on a hard sales pitch.

You want to stay with the team that you have helped build from the ground up. But, man, you want to be recognized also. Your own team doesn't want you as much as an outside team does? You call Jones to tell him what you have been offered, and Jones says "See you later, cowboy. Best of luck to you."

You go on to win a championship at the hands of those same Cowboys. It's not Neil O'Donnell throwing balls to Larry Brown. It's Troy Aikman throwing balls for touchdowns.

Does that sting your Cowboys heart a little bit? Well, that's what happened when Mark Cuban dropped his pants and showed his white ass on July 1, 2004.

And to me, it stings.

There are bad decisions, and there are the kind of God-awful BAD decisions that set a franchise back for years and even decades. Cuban's hubris in the Nash negotiations was one of those.

I fully believe that there is a Cuban Curse on these Mavericks, and that they won't win anything during his ownership. I hope I'm wrong, because I would sure love to celebrate a Mavericks championship. But I recognize that bad karma like that does not go unrewarded. We saw it last year, when Nash near singlehandedly dismissed us from the playoffs. We have it waiting for us, if we see Finley in another series.

These Mavs are doomed at the hands of Mark Cuban. They have sacrificed integrity and the chance to win for the almight dollar, for a couple million per year on a loyal employee's desserved contract.

Karma lasts a long time.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Also, if Cuban had re-signed Nash, who would've been our starting center last year?

Some people have very short memories. It wasn't that long ago when the one thing that kept us from being legit in the eyes of most fans (including mine) was a center who could defend and rebound. We had DESPERATELY needed a center for something like four years, and the problem was made that much more hard to ignore after the failure that was the 03-04 season. So let's step into Mark Cuban's shoes. We just lost in the first round after going to the conference finals, and we still can't guard anybody in the paint or on the perimeter. You have every intention of re-signing Nash and you have an idea of how much it will cost you. However, your top priority is to acquire a center. Erick Dampier looks to be the kind of guy that meets the team's needs, you pay what you need to for him. Remember, he's a bigman, and a sought-after one at that, so he ain't cheap. But surprise! Before you can do that Nash gets an offer nobody thought he would. So now you have a dilemma. Do you keep Nash, and TRY to get another center through trade or free agency, even though there doesn't seem to be anyone else available that can give your team what it needs? OR, do you get the center you need and want, let Nash walk, and take your chances by drafting Devin Harris and trading for Jason Terry?

I'm not saying we Maverick fans got the better end of the deal, but Chum and the rest are sorely mistaken when they pretend that there was no logic in Cuban's decision. It was a calculated risk, and one could say it backfired. I, however, am not one of those people because I see a team that improved afterward, and is closer to a championship now than it ever was when Nash was here. But that's just me.

Edit: Chum is also sorely mistaken when he accuses people who saw the logic in his thinking of "riding cuban's nuts." Chum, I have never in my life ridden anyone's nuts, especially not Mark Cuban's. I wanted what was best for the team, and I agreed with the decision. I might have been wrong, although it's certainly not impossible to make a case that it wasn't ultimately in the team's best interests. And I sure as hell wasn't riding Cuban's nuts when we traded for Antoine Walker and let Raja Bell walk.