Source: Nash to be MVP

[sike]

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

Congrats to Nash. But this is some effed up balloting, IMO.

He's great fun to watch---all the more in Phoenix than in Dallas, because I hate watching PGs who can't defend.

As for how Cuban must be taking it--his team gets better, and is in as good or better position to challenge for a title. My guess is he's taking it just fine.

like I said, Kiki, has there ever been such a one demensional MVP???

it must be nice to play on a team with Shawn Marion and 3 other good shooters....I just wonder why the media has so quickly adopted Nash and have been so slow to do so for Dirk?

[Five-ofan]

Dirk plays in dallas. Nash doesnt.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Dirk plays in dallas. Nash doesnt.

True dat, double true!

Maybe the Cowboy bias has seeped over to basketball.

[AxdemxO]

To those on here that are haters when it comes to Nash winning .........you should stop. Just because he played for us and left doesnt mean that you need to hate on him.

Point is he deserved it more than any of the other guys. The only other guy that should have been considered is Dirk...and we all know how that goes. Soo if its not Dirk it mite as well be Nash. Better that Kobe or LeBron gettin it.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by mary

Kobe wasn't even in the top-three.

To me it was a two-player race between Nash and Kobe.

And everyone that's saying Nash needs to be a top-20 player of all-time needs to get a clue. He's the biggest difference-maker in the league today. The "he has to be a top 20 player of all-time" argument is the biggest cop-out I've heard so far. He was clearly the MVP this year and the race wasn't even really close.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by spreedom

To me it was a two-player race between Nash and Kobe.

And everyone that's saying Nash needs to be a top-20 player of all-time needs to get a clue. He's the biggest difference-maker in the league today. The "he has to be a top 20 player of all-time" argument is the biggest cop-out I've heard so far. He was clearly the MVP this year and the race wasn't even really close.

Biggest difference-maker in the league by what objective standard?

If it's just a popularity contest, then they should just say so. But if it's genuinely a "most valuable" player award, then there should be an objective standard. Using objective comparisons to past MVPs, Dirk measures up and Nash falls short. In fact, everyone but Dirk falls short.

[Dtownsfinest]

Sigh@us giving up on Nash because he was breaking down. All he has is two MVP awards. Only way to make me feel better about the Nash departure is if a championship is brought to Dallas. Get on it Mavs.

Props to Nash. A great achievement. Not many can say they were back to back MVP's. Easily one of the best players in the league and though I think the whole "make your teammate better" argument for MVP is overrated if there's a player out there who does it its Nash. Props to the best point guard in Mavs franchise history.

[dirno2000]

Nash and KG, winners of the last three MVP awards, will probably retire without ever playing in the NBA finals. If this happens, they'll be the first two winners to hold that distinction.

Either the media is really cheapening what used to be the greatest MVP award in sports or we're watching the worst era in modern basketball.

No wonder there’s such a rush to coronate King James.

[madape]

Best player to ever put on a Maverick uniform?

[u2sarajevo]

Originally Posted by madape

Best player to ever put on a Maverick uniform?

Let's not get carried away.....

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by madape

Best player to ever put on a Maverick uniform?

Thanks for making a fantastic argument for how stupid Nash as two-time MVP really is.

Everyone and their dog knows that Dirk is a better player than Nash.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Biggest difference-maker in the league by what objective standard?

If it's just a popularity contest, then they should just say so. But if it's genuinely a "most valuable" player award, then there should be an objective standard. Using objective comparisons to past MVPs, Dirk measures up and Nash falls short. In fact, everyone but Dirk falls short.

The award isn't an objective standard. That's what makes the MVP award great. If it was objectively given to the best all-around player in the league, Michael Jordan would have won at least ten of them. But he didn't, because the award winner is determined subjectively. Is that the way it "should" be? Maybe. I think it's fairly telling, however, that Nash also won the GM and executives poll.

And come on.. the voters RARELY don't get it right. I think 5 years from now it will be pretty clear that Nash deserved this win. He turned a team that most predicted would finish near the bottom of the playoff bracket into a 53 game winning team, with every important piece around him having a career season. Who even heard of Boris Diaw before this season? And now look.. he's the MIP and averaged like 13, 7 and 6. Think he'd be doing that if he was in Atlanta? Nope. He's a product of a system that is only successful because Nash is quarterbacking it.

It's not a coincidence that the Suns are a great team with Nash at the helm.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by madape

Best player to ever put on a Maverick uniform?

That would be Jason Kidd, for the record...

[dalmations202]

Meaningless award.

Nash would have never been a MVP in Dallas even turning in the exact same numbers or doing exactly the same thing here that he did in Phoenix. Follow the money.

It has become a popularity contest where voters with ties to the Suns are voting. If Amare would have played this year, he most likely would have been the MVP.

When voters can make a guy an MVP who is not the best scorer on his team, not the best defender on ANY team, not in the top 50 players for steals as a PG, not the only All-star on the team, and can be SHUT OUT in a game in which he played over half the minutes of the game ----- THERE IS PROOF THAT IT IS A POLITCAL, POPULARITY CONTEST.

Yeah, all the "investors" from TNT, ESPN, and ex-players who invested in Phoenix just made another marketing buck, but just devalued the award by millions.

F'em.

[sike]

Originally Posted by madape

Best player to ever put on a Maverick uniform?

Now you’re just trying to get under fans skin, ape.

Best former mavs player who's won two MVPs? yes. Best Mavs Player??? Please. Ro Blackman, Jason Kidd, Dirk N....all better players than Nash.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by spreedom

The award isn't an objective standard. That's what makes the MVP award great. If it was objectively given to the best all-around player in the league, Michael Jordan would have won at least ten of them. But he didn't, because the award winner is determined subjectively. Is that the way it "should" be? Maybe. I think it's fairly telling, however, that Nash also won the GM and executives poll.

I didn't say "best all-around player in the league." I said "most valuable" player. I think both can be objectively determined.

The problem with subjectively determining the winner with no objective criteria is that this appears to be a recent trend. In the past, there was an unwritten criteria that was pretty religiously followed. Not so much so anymore.

Re: the GM and executive's polls, I haven't seen those results, but if the GMs around the league voted him the MVP, that just proves to me how cheapened the award has become that intelligent basketball people could hold such a subjective and uninformed opinion.

If you were to take a poll and the GMs around the league had to start a team with one player, just for next year, Nash wouldn't even be top 5.

And come on.. the voters RARELY don't get it right. I think 5 years from now it will be pretty clear that Nash deserved this win.

Wrong. 5 years from now it will be pretty clear that Nash was a deviation from the previously accepted criteria for the award.

He turned a team that most predicted would finish near the bottom of the playoff bracket into a 53 game winning team, with every important piece around him having a career season.

The Suns were predicted by many to win their division even without Stoudemire. Who else in the Pacific, exactly, was going to stop them?

As for every important piece around him having a career season, that's just not true. Sure, Diaw has looked great in Phoenix, but who else? Marion's scoring average went up a couple of points (with more shots available because Stoudemire was gone), but Raja Bell was more productive last year in Utah, and Kurt Thomas was more productive last year in New York.

It's not a coincidence that the Suns are a great team with Nash at the helm.

Your definition of "great" is pretty watered down, IMO, if you think the Suns are great at this point.

[ddh33]

I vomited in my mouth when I heard this.

Steve Nash just officially became the most overrated player in NBA history.

What makes me sick is not that Dirk should have won it. I can handle that, believe it or not. Lebron did things this season that only 2-3 other people have done. Kobe did things that only 3-4 others have done. Neither of them won it. If you want to reward a great player on a great team, then where was our guy?

No matter how you stack it up, the wrong person won this award...again.

Thank God the Finals MVP usually straightens this mess out.

And yes, they should now rename the award. Just call it the most popular player, or let the fans vote on it.

Steve Nash...ranked right along with Jordan and Bird and Chamberlain, ahead of Shaq and apparently was ahead of Stcokton. Oh God, I'm going to be sick again.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Nash and KG, winners of the last three MVP awards, will probably retire without ever playing in the NBA finals. If this happens, they'll be the first two winners to hold that distinction.

Either the media is really cheapening what used to be the greatest MVP award in sports or we're watching the worst era in modern basketball.

No wonder there’s such a rush to coronate King James.

Well that's just it. The MVP award doesn't factor in what occurs in the playoffs. Its a regular season award. None of the legit candidates have won a championship except Kobe and he did that with a completely different team.

[spreedom]

Fine KG.. give me a formula to objectively name the MVP without fail.

What a stupid thing to do to an award.. it should measure intangibles as well as on-court statistics; no formula can measure intangibles.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by ddh33

I vomited in my mouth when I heard this.

Steve Nash just officially became the most overrated player in NBA history.

What makes me sick is not that Dirk should have won it. I can handle that, believe it or not. Lebron did things this season that only 2-3 other people have done. Kobe did things that only 3-4 others have done. Neither of them won it. If you want to reward a great player on a great team, then where was our guy?

No matter how you stack it up, the wrong person won this award...again.

Thank God the Finals MVP usually straightens this mess out.

And yes, they should now rename the award. Just call it the most popular player, or let the fans vote on it.

Steve Nash...ranked right along with Jordan and Bird and Chamberlain, ahead of Shaq and apparently was ahead of Stcokton. Oh God, I'm going to be sick again.

I think that's a little Nash departure hate isn't it? Nash was a legit candidate for the award. He went from having the most dominant player in the league one year and the next not have him at all. Everyone wrote Nash off due to him not having Amare for the year. His team clearly overachieved and i'd credit that to Nash and D'Antoni. If you wanted to give it to a point guard I would've given it to Billups myself but you can't deny the year Nash and Phoenix had. He may be overrated(who isn't on this board?) but the success Nash has had without his team's best player is underrated.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I didn't say "best all-around player in the league." I said "most valuable" player. I think both can be objectively determined.

The problem with subjectively determining the winner with no objective criteria is that this appears to be a recent trend. In the past, there was an unwritten criteria that was pretty religiously followed. Not so much so anymore.

Re: the GM and executive's polls, I haven't seen those results, but if the GMs around the league voted him the MVP, that just proves to me how cheapened the award has become that intelligent basketball people could hold such a subjective and uninformed opinion.

If you were to take a poll and the GMs around the league had to start a team with one player, just for next year, Nash wouldn't even be top 5.



Wrong. 5 years from now it will be pretty clear that Nash was a deviation from the previously accepted criteria for the award.



The Suns were predicted by many to win their division even without Stoudemire. Who else in the Pacific, exactly, was going to stop them?

As for every important piece around him having a career season, that's just not true. Sure, Diaw has looked great in Phoenix, but who else? Marion's scoring average went up a couple of points (with more shots available because Stoudemire was gone), but Raja Bell was more productive last year in Utah, and Kurt Thomas was more productive last year in New York.



Your definition of "great" is pretty watered down, IMO, if you think the Suns are great at this point.

Well since you seem to know every fact that goes into analyzing the game of basketball, I shouldn't even bother trying to state my opinion. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by madape

Best player to ever put on a Maverick uniform?

Obviously the best player to ever put on a uniform outside of jordan. He's right there with Magic Johnson, Larry Bird etc.

He's automatically in the hof, must be listed with the top 20 players of all time.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I think that's a little Nash departure hate isn't it? Nash was a legit candidate for the award. He went from having the most dominant player in the league one year and the next not have him at all. Everyone wrote Nash off due to him not having Amare for the year. His team clearly overachieved and i'd credit that to Nash and D'Antoni. If you wanted to give it to a point guard I would've given it to Billups myself but you can't deny the year Nash and Phoenix had. He may be overrated(who isn't on this board?) but the success Nash has had without his team's best player is underrated.

Dirk's the most overrated player in the history of this board.

[Epitome22]

Last year everyone blamed it on the fact that he had such an amazing supporting cast, and that the REAL MVP was Amare Stoudamire. After he plays a full season without Stoudamire, He has an even better season and the Suns still had a good year. Does anyone want to talk about the amazing talents of Boris Diaw, & other chumps that suddenly become good when playing with a PG who knows how to run an offense?

Steve Nash played an entire season without the team's most talented & gifted player. The other Star on the team, Shawn Marion, is completely incapable of creating his own shot & relies on assists to aquire the majority of his field goals. Other Suns stalwarts are a former point guard playing center(Diaw), and a 10th man on a good team playing Small Forward (Raja Bell) and with that cast, the Suns win 54 games, thanks to Nash.

This season, Nash had career-highs in points (18.8 points per game), rebounds (4.2 per game), field goal percentage (51.2 percent) and free throw percentage (92.1 percent -- best in the league). He was also the league-leader in assists (10.5) and shot nearly 50 percent from three-point range.

Some other choice Nash facts from 82games.com

Not only was his FT% .913% a league best, but he also had the fourth highest Clutch FT Percentage in the league (.923%) Dirk was 13th.

Four of the top 20 most effective pass-scorer combos in the league feature a man named Steve Nash.

The two players in the league most dependent upon a key assist in order to score a bucket both play with Steve Nash (Kurt Thomas & Boris Diaw)

In the passers most reliant on one scorer measure (I.E. easy assist gravy train player) Nash, who led the league in assists, and plays with multiple players who are dependent on him to score, did not even register. Basically, he has no gravy train player (ala Stockton to Malone) to beef up his assists, he spreads the ball around evenly to a bevy of mediocre players, who become better when playing with him.

"Nash has also led from his point-guard position the three greatest offenses since the NBA began tracking turnovers (2003-04 Dallas, 2004-05 Phoenix and 2002-03 Dallas), as measured by differential between the team's Offensive Rating and league average. Here is how I have them, defining possessions as .96*(FGA + (.44*FTA) - OR + TO):

Team Year ORtg League Diff
--------------------------------------
Dallas 2003-04 114.1 104.2 9.9
Phoenix 2004-05 116.6 107.4 9.2
Dallas 2001-02 114.0 105.8 8.2
Denver 1981-82 116.3 108.5 7.8
Chicago 1996-97 115.8 108.0 7.8
Dallas 2002-03 112.7 104.9 7.8 "

"An 82games study last year showed Stoudemire, along with Marion, was one of the NBA players most dependent on a single teammate (Nash, natch) for an assist. How much credit does Nash deserve for Stoudemire going from promising youngster to MVP candidate? A lot, I would say."

"If we look at all these different players, some very clear patterns emerge. For the most part, players tend to shoot better when Nash is on the court. The more important and more subtle effect, however, is that players slashed their turnover rate. (No regular improved their turnover rate alongside Nash the last two seasons; Jacobsen's was unchanged.) As I touched on in the discussion of Stoudemire, the reason for this is that Nash delivers the ball to players in position to shoot and without them having to do virtually any work for their shot besides getting open, as opposed to shooting off of a dribble or two."

"If there is a common thread amongst Nash's recent teams, besides their ultra-efficient offenses, it is that they rarely if ever turn the ball over. The 2002-03 and 2003-04 Mavericks recorded the two lowest turnover rates since the league began tracking turnovers in 1973-74, and the 2001-02 incarnation ranks fourth. (The 2004-05 Suns are also in the top 25 of all time.)"

Since this will be heated, I'll just go ahead and say it. Even accepting for argument's sake that Nash, while great these past 2 seasons has none the less been overrated; In My Opinion, in the last 2 seasons, Nash>Dirk

[ddh33]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I think that's a little Nash departure hate isn't it? Nash was a legit candidate for the award. He went from having the most dominant player in the league one year and the next not have him at all. Everyone wrote Nash off due to him not having Amare for the year. His team clearly overachieved and i'd credit that to Nash and D'Antoni. If you wanted to give it to a point guard I would've given it to Billups myself but you can't deny the year Nash and Phoenix had. He may be overrated(who isn't on this board?) but the success Nash has had without his team's best player is underrated.

By the same argument, Dirk lost the MVP of the league and got better two years in a row - including winning 60. And just for the record, Dirk probably would not have been #1 on my ballot.

Yes, Nash was a legit candidate for the award. He was last year too. Yes, Nash should be all NBA first team. But Shaq should have won last year, and there were three better candidates this year. Somehow, Nash was both of them when he didn't deserve either.

[Dtownsfinest]

And that's the reality of things. If Nash got the MVP last year playing alongside Amare how do you justify him not being a candidate this year not having him at all and still having a great record?

[madape]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Obviously the best player to ever put on a uniform outside of jordan. He's right there with Magic Johnson, Larry Bird etc.

He's automatically in the hof, must be listed with the top 20 players of all time.

I assume you're being sarcastic, but I do beleive that this MVP makes Nash a shoe-in for the HOF. Whether he will be considered to be one of the super-elite players in NBA history will be determined, I think, by his playoff success over the next couple of years. If he wins a title, I think you have to put him above Stockton, if he's not there already.

My guess is that among point guards, he'll end up being a consensus top 5.. behind guys like Magic and Isaiah.. maybe around Cousy, Frazier, Archibald, etc..

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by ddh33

By the same argument, Dirk lost the MVP of the league and got better two years in a row - including winning 60. And just for the record, Dirk probably would not have been #1 on my ballot.

Yes, Nash was a legit candidate for the award. He was last year too. Yes, Nash should be all NBA first team. But Shaq should have won last year, and there were three better candidates this year. Somehow, Nash was both of them when he didn't deserve either.

Dirk lost Nash but in return he recieved Devin Harris, Jerry Stackhouse and Jason Terry. That more than made up for Nash's departure not to mention the emergence of Jos Howard. I'm not denying that Dirk wasn't a candidate but take consideration what team he's playing on. People discredit Kobe because his team's record isn't as good as other playoff contenders but look who he's playing alongside? Is he suppose to be #1 in the NBA? They're suppose to have a better record than the Mavs and Spurs? Those teams have superior rosters compared to the Lakers. What Kobe has done is amazing. No one posses a threat on the offensive side of the ball therefore Kobe will see more double teams than other superstars in this league with reliable #2's. Look at Nash's roster. No one wanted James Jones, Boris Diaw or Eddie House. Raja Bell has become a journeyman as well. Tim Thomas was cut from the freakin' Chicago Bulls and scores 20 in his debut. When we bring up MVP we talk about what that player does to the teammates he plays alongside. Diaw may have been what sold the voters to Nash. Shawn Marion is great. I won't discredit anything he's done this year but he just like Kirilenko can't lead a team to the playoffs by themselves. They can't have a offense ran through them either. That's when Nash comes into play. Give credit to Nash and move on. He's had a great year and honestly I have no problem with Nash, Billups, Bron, Kobe or Dirk winning the award. All are legit contenders. Its a toss up as far as i'm concerned.

[madape]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Dirk lost Nash but in return he recieved Devin Harris, Jerry Stackhouse and Jason Terry. That more than made up for Nash's departure not to mention the emergence of Jos Howard. I'm not denying that Dirk wasn't a candidate but take consideration what team he's playing on. People discredit Kobe because his team's record isn't as good as other playoff contenders but look who he's playing alongside? Is he suppose to be #1 in the NBA? They're suppose to have a better record than the Mavs and Spurs? Those teams have superior rosters compared to the Lakers. What Kobe has done is amazing. No one posses a threat on the offensive side of the ball therefore Kobe will see more double teams than other superstars in this league with reliable #2's. Look at Nash's roster. No one wanted James Jones, Boris Diaw or Eddie House. Raja Bell has become a journeyman as well. Tim Thomas was cut from the freakin' Chicago Bulls and scores 20 in his debut. When we bring up MVP we talk about what that player does to the teammates he plays alongside. Diaw may have been what sold the voters to Nash. Shawn Marion is great. I won't discredit anything he's done this year but he just like Kirilenko can't lead a team to the playoffs by themselves. They can't have a offense ran through them either. That's when Nash comes into play. Give credit to Nash and move on. He's had a great year and honestly I have no problem with Nash, Billups, Bron, Kobe or Dirk winning the award. All are legit contenders. Its a toss up as far as i'm concerned.

Harris and Stackhouse were already here when Nash left, as was Josh Howard. Jason Terry was a panic move that Cuban made after he lost Nash. In fact, I fully beleive that if not for the Nash debacle, we could have turned the goods we traded for Terry into something REALLY special. I'm thinking Vince Carter here, but it could have been anything. A giant expiring contract attached to a decent to good player like Antoine Walker can usually get you a pretty nice return (something much nicer than Jason Terry).

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

...but the success Nash has had without his team's best player is underrated.

You know, you're right. That reminds me of this foreign guy who played in the NBA. Funny thing. His team lost a two-time MVP, then went on to win 58 and 60 games in the next two seasons. Under a rookie coach no less!

I can't remember the guy's name, but you're right...Nash is so underrated.

[vjz]

Originally Posted by Epitome22

Last year everyone blamed it on the fact that he had such an amazing supporting cast, and that the REAL MVP was Amare Stoudamire. After he plays a full season without Stoudamire, He has an even better season and the Suns still had a good year. Does anyone want to talk about the amazing talents of Boris Diaw, & other chumps that suddenly become good when playing with a PG who knows how to run an offense?

Steve Nash played an entire season without the team's most talented & gifted player. The other Star on the team, Shawn Marion, is completely incapable of creating his own shot & relies on assists to aquire the majority of his field goals. Other Suns stalwarts are a former point guard playing center(Diaw), and a 10th man on a good team playing Small Forward (Raja Bell) and with that cast, the Suns win 54 games, thanks to Nash.

This season, Nash had career-highs in points (18.8 points per game), rebounds (4.2 per game), field goal percentage (51.2 percent) and free throw percentage (92.1 percent -- best in the league). He was also the league-leader in assists (10.5) and shot nearly 50 percent from three-point range.

Some other choice Nash facts from 82games.com

Not only was his FT% .913% a league best, but he also had the fourth highest Clutch FT Percentage in the league (.923%) Dirk was 13th.

Four of the top 20 most effective pass-scorer combos in the league feature a man named Steve Nash.

The two players in the league most dependent upon a key assist in order to score a bucket both play with Steve Nash (Kurt Thomas & Boris Diaw)

In the passers most reliant on one scorer measure (I.E. easy assist gravy train player) Nash, who led the league in assists, and plays with multiple players who are dependent on him to score, did not even register. Basically, he has no gravy train player (ala Stockton to Malone) to beef up his assists, he spreads the ball around evenly to a bevy of mediocre players, who become better when playing with him.

"Nash has also led from his point-guard position the three greatest offenses since the NBA began tracking turnovers (2003-04 Dallas, 2004-05 Phoenix and 2002-03 Dallas), as measured by differential between the team's Offensive Rating and league average. Here is how I have them, defining possessions as .96*(FGA + (.44*FTA) - OR + TO):

Team Year ORtg League Diff
--------------------------------------
Dallas 2003-04 114.1 104.2 9.9
Phoenix 2004-05 116.6 107.4 9.2
Dallas 2001-02 114.0 105.8 8.2
Denver 1981-82 116.3 108.5 7.8
Chicago 1996-97 115.8 108.0 7.8
Dallas 2002-03 112.7 104.9 7.8 "

"An 82games study last year showed Stoudemire, along with Marion, was one of the NBA players most dependent on a single teammate (Nash, natch) for an assist. How much credit does Nash deserve for Stoudemire going from promising youngster to MVP candidate? A lot, I would say."

"If we look at all these different players, some very clear patterns emerge. For the most part, players tend to shoot better when Nash is on the court. The more important and more subtle effect, however, is that players slashed their turnover rate. (No regular improved their turnover rate alongside Nash the last two seasons; Jacobsen's was unchanged.) As I touched on in the discussion of Stoudemire, the reason for this is that Nash delivers the ball to players in position to shoot and without them having to do virtually any work for their shot besides getting open, as opposed to shooting off of a dribble or two."

"If there is a common thread amongst Nash's recent teams, besides their ultra-efficient offenses, it is that they rarely if ever turn the ball over. The 2002-03 and 2003-04 Mavericks recorded the two lowest turnover rates since the league began tracking turnovers in 1973-74, and the 2001-02 incarnation ranks fourth. (The 2004-05 Suns are also in the top 25 of all time.)"

Since this will be heated, I'll just go ahead and say it. Even accepting for argument's sake that Nash, while great these past 2 seasons has none the less been overrated; In My Opinion, in the last 2 seasons, Nash>Dirk

Except for your last line, great post, reps for you !!

[Dirkenstien]

Absolutely rediculous. Whatever..better Nash than Kobe.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by orangedays

You know, you're right. That reminds me of this foreign guy who played in the NBA. Funny thing. His team lost a two-time MVP, then went on to win 58 and 60 games in the next two seasons. Under a rookie coach no less!

I can't remember the guy's name, but you're right...Nash is so underrated.

Nash wasn't a two time MVP playing for the Mavericks therefore Dirk lost a all star who his team had written off. And let's forget that the Mavericks added Dampier, Stack, Harris and JET. Those guys don't equal up to Nash I suppose.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by madape

Harris and Stackhouse were already here when Nash left, as was Josh Howard. Jason Terry was a panic move that Cuban made after he lost Nash. In fact, I fully beleive that if not for the Nash debacle, we could have turned the goods we traded for Terry into something REALLY special. I'm thinking Vince Carter here, but it could have been anything. A giant expiring contract attached to a decent to good player like Antoine Walker can usually get you a pretty nice return (something much nicer than Jason Terry).

Yea I think the writing was on the wall after the Mavs traded for Harris and Stack. I do agree had we kept Nash we could've traded Walker's contract for a significant piece. A piece that could potentially be a all star along Dirk right now.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Nash wasn't a two time MVP playing for the Mavericks therefore Dirk lost a all star who his team had written off. And let's forget that the Mavericks added Dampier, Stack, Harris and JET. Those guys don't equal up to Nash I suppose.

Dirk lost Nash. Why Nash left is irrelevant.

You do realize that Marion, NOT Amare, was the 2nd most important player on the 04-05 Suns? (by a large margin...check out the +/-). Sure, Stoudemire was a beast - but he wasn't the main reason why the Suns were so successful.

Look at where the minutes are distributed this year - Diaw, Bell, Jones, House, Thomas - the only player from last year's team (outside of Nash and Marion) who gets significant minutes is Barbosa.

You think that what Diaw, Bell, Jones, House, Thomas bring to the table isn't any better than what the four Dallas players you named bring? Preposterous. Check the stats.

[FINtastic]

I really don't see how Nash is an MVP in this league. I just don't. For some reason, every positive thing that happens to the Suns is something Nash did, while any negative thing that happens to the Suns is proof that Nash is MVP (i.e. when the Suns lose to a team like the Spurs without Nash). Seriously, shouldn't Mike D'Antoni get some credit for boosting the scoring averages of his players by running a ridiculously high-octane system? What about Shawn Marion who does everything for that team (scores, rebounds, blocked shots, you name it) and gets unnoticed? Marion does so much for that team, but he hardly gets a mention.

Does anyone want to talk about the amazing talents of Boris Diaw, & other chumps that suddenly become good when playing with a PG who knows how to run an offense?

I'm sorry but after watching Boris Diaw this year (and I've monitored his stats closely because he is on my fantasy team), I've realized that dude can play. I don't think he was "created" by Nash, he was just badly poorly used by Atlanta. The reason he is being widely considered one of the Most Improved Players isn't just because he is scoring more, it's because he also rebounds and passes very well. Seriously, do you really Diaw's great assist and rebound numbers are solely Nash's doing? I don't. Did you take a a look at what Diaw did during the last 2 games that Nash was sitting out? That's right, triple doubles in both games (one of them with Nash-like 16 assists). He sure didn't need Nash to look good on those nights. Seriously, I don't buy this ridiculous notion that Nash "turned Boris Diaw into a good player." Boris Diaw was already a good player, he just need to play under a coach like D'Antoni who would best utilize his multi-faceted game.

Not to mention, Raja Bell had two very solid years in Utah before coming to Phoenix. He's not mincemeat either. His jumper was showing solid improvement each year, and he was put in a run and gun system in Phoenix that made good use of that.

I don't think Phoenix's solid year is all Nash's doing, even though for some reason, Nash is the only one the media wants to give credit for the success of Phoenix.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Yea I think the writing was on the wall after the Mavs traded for Harris and Stack. I do agree had we kept Nash we could've traded Walker's contract for a significant piece. A piece that could potentially be a all star along Dirk right now.

Who in their right mind would have traded a potential all-star for antoine walker? I don't care how nice the expiring contract is, no one makes that type of trade. Seriously, in all the years in the past when we had players with expiring contracts, did we ever get an all-star caliber player in return? Nope, we got players along the lines of Juwan Howard, NVE, and Keith Van Horn. Nice players, sure, but they certainly aren't going to be mistaken for all-stars (at least at that point in their careers). Jason Terry was about as good of a return as we were going to get for Walker. Sure you can say that we could have gotten better, but that is wishful thinking at best.

[FINtastic]

Also, if we use that logic that players are only good when they play alongside Nash, shouldn't Joe Johnson be having a pretty bad year this year? Turns out he had a pretty fine year even without the greatest player ever at making his teammates better.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Epitome22

Last year everyone blamed it on the fact that he had such an amazing supporting cast, and that the REAL MVP was Amare Stoudamire. After he plays a full season without Stoudamire, He has an even better season and the Suns still had a good year. Does anyone want to talk about the amazing talents of Boris Diaw, & other chumps that suddenly become good when playing with a PG who knows how to run an offense?

Steve Nash played an entire season without the team's most talented & gifted player. The other Star on the team, Shawn Marion, is completely incapable of creating his own shot & relies on assists to aquire the majority of his field goals. Other Suns stalwarts are a former point guard playing center(Diaw), and a 10th man on a good team playing Small Forward (Raja Bell) and with that cast, the Suns win 54 games, thanks to Nash.

This season, Nash had career-highs in points (18.8 points per game), rebounds (4.2 per game), field goal percentage (51.2 percent) and free throw percentage (92.1 percent -- best in the league). He was also the league-leader in assists (10.5) and shot nearly 50 percent from three-point range.

Some other choice Nash facts from 82games.com

Not only was his FT% .913% a league best, but he also had the fourth highest Clutch FT Percentage in the league (.923%) Dirk was 13th.

Four of the top 20 most effective pass-scorer combos in the league feature a man named Steve Nash.

The two players in the league most dependent upon a key assist in order to score a bucket both play with Steve Nash (Kurt Thomas & Boris Diaw)

In the passers most reliant on one scorer measure (I.E. easy assist gravy train player) Nash, who led the league in assists, and plays with multiple players who are dependent on him to score, did not even register. Basically, he has no gravy train player (ala Stockton to Malone) to beef up his assists, he spreads the ball around evenly to a bevy of mediocre players, who become better when playing with him.

"Nash has also led from his point-guard position the three greatest offenses since the NBA began tracking turnovers (2003-04 Dallas, 2004-05 Phoenix and 2002-03 Dallas), as measured by differential between the team's Offensive Rating and league average. Here is how I have them, defining possessions as .96*(FGA + (.44*FTA) - OR + TO):

Team Year ORtg League Diff
--------------------------------------
Dallas 2003-04 114.1 104.2 9.9
Phoenix 2004-05 116.6 107.4 9.2
Dallas 2001-02 114.0 105.8 8.2
Denver 1981-82 116.3 108.5 7.8
Chicago 1996-97 115.8 108.0 7.8
Dallas 2002-03 112.7 104.9 7.8 "

"An 82games study last year showed Stoudemire, along with Marion, was one of the NBA players most dependent on a single teammate (Nash, natch) for an assist. How much credit does Nash deserve for Stoudemire going from promising youngster to MVP candidate? A lot, I would say."

"If we look at all these different players, some very clear patterns emerge. For the most part, players tend to shoot better when Nash is on the court. The more important and more subtle effect, however, is that players slashed their turnover rate. (No regular improved their turnover rate alongside Nash the last two seasons; Jacobsen's was unchanged.) As I touched on in the discussion of Stoudemire, the reason for this is that Nash delivers the ball to players in position to shoot and without them having to do virtually any work for their shot besides getting open, as opposed to shooting off of a dribble or two."

"If there is a common thread amongst Nash's recent teams, besides their ultra-efficient offenses, it is that they rarely if ever turn the ball over. The 2002-03 and 2003-04 Mavericks recorded the two lowest turnover rates since the league began tracking turnovers in 1973-74, and the 2001-02 incarnation ranks fourth. (The 2004-05 Suns are also in the top 25 of all time.)"

Since this will be heated, I'll just go ahead and say it. Even accepting for argument's sake that Nash, while great these past 2 seasons has none the less been overrated; In My Opinion, in the last 2 seasons, Nash>Dirk

I appreciate the stats even if I disagree with your conclusion. Still, a few things I'd like to add to the conversation:

1) Re: Marion's and Diaw's supposed dependence on Nash for their superior statistics, the assisted fg% argument kind of falls apart once you realize that both guys had a superior efg% with Nash on the bench this year than they did with Nash on the floor (see 82games' player pair stats for the relevant data).

2) Re: clutch play, it's worth noting that Dirk holds a sizable +/- and winning percentage advantage over Nash in this respect going off 82games, stats. Nash's on-court +/- in clutch situations was +6.4 per 48, and his winning percentage was 52.5% (21-19). Dirk was at +16.6 and 68.3% (28-13), respectively. That clutch winning percentage, by the way, is the best of any of the MVP candidates, Billups included.

3) Regarding TO's, it should be noted that not only was Dirk's personal TO ratio considerably better than Nash's (see knickerblogger.net), his net TO +/- was superior to Nash's as well (with Dirk off the court the Mavs turned the ball over 16 times per 48, and with him on the court only 12 times per 48, whereas Nash was at 13 off-court and 12 on-court; see 82games for those numbers).

[Stranger]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

John Stockton just turned over in his grave...

I heard he was at a sympathy party with Isiah Thomas, Jerry West, Gary Payton, and Jason Kidd. Oscar Robertson tried to come, but they wouldn't let him in because he has one MVP award.