Source: Nash to be MVP

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by spreedom

The award isn't an objective standard. That's what makes the MVP award great. If it was objectively given to the best all-around player in the league, Michael Jordan would have won at least ten of them. But he didn't, because the award winner is determined subjectively. Is that the way it "should" be? Maybe. I think it's fairly telling, however, that Nash also won the GM and executives poll.

And come on.. the voters RARELY don't get it right. I think 5 years from now it will be pretty clear that Nash deserved this win. He turned a team that most predicted would finish near the bottom of the playoff bracket into a 53 game winning team, with every important piece around him having a career season. Who even heard of Boris Diaw before this season? And now look.. he's the MIP and averaged like 13, 7 and 6. Think he'd be doing that if he was in Atlanta? Nope. He's a product of a system that is only successful because Nash is quarterbacking it.

It's not a coincidence that the Suns are a great team with Nash at the helm.

Tremendously well spoken.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Epitome22

Last year everyone blamed it on the fact that he had such an amazing supporting cast, and that the REAL MVP was Amare Stoudamire. After he plays a full season without Stoudamire, He has an even better season and the Suns still had a good year. Does anyone want to talk about the amazing talents of Boris Diaw, & other chumps that suddenly become good when playing with a PG who knows how to run an offense?

Steve Nash played an entire season without the team's most talented & gifted player. The other Star on the team, Shawn Marion, is completely incapable of creating his own shot & relies on assists to aquire the majority of his field goals. Other Suns stalwarts are a former point guard playing center(Diaw), and a 10th man on a good team playing Small Forward (Raja Bell) and with that cast, the Suns win 54 games, thanks to Nash.

This season, Nash had career-highs in points (18.8 points per game), rebounds (4.2 per game), field goal percentage (51.2 percent) and free throw percentage (92.1 percent -- best in the league). He was also the league-leader in assists (10.5) and shot nearly 50 percent from three-point range.

Some other choice Nash facts from 82games.com

Not only was his FT% .913% a league best, but he also had the fourth highest Clutch FT Percentage in the league (.923%) Dirk was 13th.

Four of the top 20 most effective pass-scorer combos in the league feature a man named Steve Nash.

The two players in the league most dependent upon a key assist in order to score a bucket both play with Steve Nash (Kurt Thomas & Boris Diaw)

In the passers most reliant on one scorer measure (I.E. easy assist gravy train player) Nash, who led the league in assists, and plays with multiple players who are dependent on him to score, did not even register. Basically, he has no gravy train player (ala Stockton to Malone) to beef up his assists, he spreads the ball around evenly to a bevy of mediocre players, who become better when playing with him.

"Nash has also led from his point-guard position the three greatest offenses since the NBA began tracking turnovers (2003-04 Dallas, 2004-05 Phoenix and 2002-03 Dallas), as measured by differential between the team's Offensive Rating and league average. Here is how I have them, defining possessions as .96*(FGA + (.44*FTA) - OR + TO):

Team Year ORtg League Diff
--------------------------------------
Dallas 2003-04 114.1 104.2 9.9
Phoenix 2004-05 116.6 107.4 9.2
Dallas 2001-02 114.0 105.8 8.2
Denver 1981-82 116.3 108.5 7.8
Chicago 1996-97 115.8 108.0 7.8
Dallas 2002-03 112.7 104.9 7.8 "

"An 82games study last year showed Stoudemire, along with Marion, was one of the NBA players most dependent on a single teammate (Nash, natch) for an assist. How much credit does Nash deserve for Stoudemire going from promising youngster to MVP candidate? A lot, I would say."

"If we look at all these different players, some very clear patterns emerge. For the most part, players tend to shoot better when Nash is on the court. The more important and more subtle effect, however, is that players slashed their turnover rate. (No regular improved their turnover rate alongside Nash the last two seasons; Jacobsen's was unchanged.) As I touched on in the discussion of Stoudemire, the reason for this is that Nash delivers the ball to players in position to shoot and without them having to do virtually any work for their shot besides getting open, as opposed to shooting off of a dribble or two."

"If there is a common thread amongst Nash's recent teams, besides their ultra-efficient offenses, it is that they rarely if ever turn the ball over. The 2002-03 and 2003-04 Mavericks recorded the two lowest turnover rates since the league began tracking turnovers in 1973-74, and the 2001-02 incarnation ranks fourth. (The 2004-05 Suns are also in the top 25 of all time.)"

Since this will be heated, I'll just go ahead and say it. Even accepting for argument's sake that Nash, while great these past 2 seasons has none the less been overrated; In My Opinion, in the last 2 seasons, Nash>Dirk

See, when you look at it like that, you get an inkling of just how great this guy is. What a truly unique player, in terms of the impact he makes on a team.

[chumdawg]

Just a public service announcement: the back-to-back MVP is getting ready to tip off tonight on TNT. You might want to watch.

[FINtastic]

If I really wanted to watch someone who didn't deserve an MVP, I'd pop in some Phoenix tapes from last year.

[chumdawg]

Kobe is trying to step against Nash, creating an argument. This is great TV!

[Murphy3]

Chum, don't forget to mind the step children.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Chum, don't forget to mind the step children.

Huh?

You still sore about your boy getting shut out? Even so, I don't understand that.

[Murphy3]

Mad about Dirk not winning the MVP? No. I think second place is probably where he deserves to be.

[dude1394]

Congratulations to Steve Nash..The second best point guard in the history of the NBA!

I just never realized he was that good. My bad.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Congratulations to Steve Nash..The second best point guard in the history of the NBA!

I just never realized he was that good. My bad.

Dude:

I know how much you like this in the political forum:

SCOREBOARD!

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Dude:

I know how much you like this in the political forum:

SCOREBOARD!

I happen to agree with you. Because he has been twice-voted MVP and only Magic Johnson has won it as a point guard. He MUST be the second best point guard in the history of the NBA. Because of the SCOREBOARD.

That's what the voters are saying and they must be correct because it's on the board.

[chumdawg]

Thank you.

[Thespiralgoeson]

I think the scoreboard is broken.

[rabbitproof]

If this MVP doesn't win the championship this year, he's the most phony MVP ever.

If he does, he validates everything and sticks it to Cuban to boot.

It's all on you, Canada.

[chumdawg]

It's a regular-season award, rabbitproof. Of course, this is not to diminish the tremendous performance Nash had in the post-season last year, which may have well factored into folks' deciding that Nash was again the spot-on-balls Most Valuable Player they could come across this year

[rabbitproof]

Very good point, Chumdawg. I'm forgetting it's a regular season award. All the same, I feel the league's most valuable player in consecutive seasons ought to have a Finals win somewhere in his reign of the league. That being the best should equal to being a champion somewhere, even if they are two different types of seasons. Perhaps I'm being unfair.

Nonetheless, I'm done overvaluing the MVP award. Enjoy it, Nash.

I'm interested in playing for the bigger marbles now.

[Thespiralgoeson]

A great poster on this board (I forget which one) made a comment so clever, I really wish I'd thought of it;

Nash can have the Heisman. Dirk will take the Rose Bowl.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

A great poster on this board (I forget which one) made a comment so clever, I really wish I'd thought of it;

Nash can have the Heisman. Dirk will take the Rose Bowl.

Who dat is?

capitalcity - he ain't all jokes and jokes.

[sixeightmkw]

This was a give up vote. There were so many prospects for MVP this year that they just said, well, Phoenix wasn't supposed to do this good so, lets give it to him

[Five-ofan]

The problem i have with the "nash made diaw" argument is that whats makes diaw good this year is his assists and rebounds not his scoring. Nash cant get him assists or boards.

[sixeightmkw]

I don't know if anyone heard the Musers take on the MVP but I totally agree with it. You can't use the "make the team better" excuse. It should be about who is the best player period. That is why I would consider the only candidates to be Lebron, Dirk, and Kobe. Yes, Lebron and Kobe score alot of points and do alot of amazing things, but that is because they are the only option on the team. Everything runs through them and everything is designed for them. Dirk has a couple of different options. He doesn'thave to take every shot and a lot of times during the game they will go away from Dirk and be able to score at will. Nash should have never been considered this year. Just like the Musers said,. what if Amare comes in next year and averages 50 ppg and 30 rpg but they only win 50 games. He can't be considered as MVP cause the team didn't improve.

[Murphy3]

Why can't you use the 'make the team better' aspect as part of your criteria?

[sixeightmkw]

if we use that criteria, then why wasn't ben Gordon in the MVP race, why wasn't Gilbert ARenas in the MVP voting, why wasn't Dwayne Wade there at the top, why wasn't Pau Gasol in there, why wasn't Chris Paul in there, why wasn't Vince Carter in there or Jason Kidd, or Tony Parker, or Manu Ginobli, or Jermaine Oneil, or or or or or......

you could go on forever. All of those teams would be lost without their stars and they would not be in the playoffs without those guys. But none, except for mabey Dewayne would be considrered the best player in the NBA. If that is the criteria used for the MVP voting, which it definately was in Nash wins,then the MVP would be even more wide open

[sixeightmkw]

and it has been said before on here, NASH IS NOT EVEN THE BEST PLAYER ON THE SUNS<

[sixeightmkw]

Nash now joins an elite group of back to back winners. Look at this shit. This is totally ridiculous.

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlane
Kareem Abdul Jabar
Moses Malone
Majic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Tim Duncan

and now

STEVE FREAKIN NASH<
the MVP has always been about who is the best player in the NBA that season. ALWAYS. It has never been about who has been what ever Ric Bucher said in his column.
So all you NASH lovers out there, you mean to tell me that Nash has been the BEST, I mean BEST player in the NBA this year? Total idiocy.

[Nemesis]

Nash has been the best player in the NBA THIS year sixeightmkw, for alot of different reasons other than statistics i.e. Kobe Bryant. You take him away from that team and they would fall off the map THIS year (which is a good argument for the Laker's and Kobe granted) . So that argument is very weak. If your and the "Musers" second argument were true then Michael Jordan would have been MVP from 1984 - 1998. Give or take a couple of years. So that argument is completely absurb and I find it totally based on emotion. Nash had it won at the All-Star break.

[Five-ofan]

The problem is you are a damn fool if you think nash has been the best player in the nba this year. Nash is top 15. To say he is the best player in the nba is a freakin joke. That isnt why they voted him mvp though just a response. The problem i have is that i talked to a friend of mine yesterday who isnt a big basketball fan(he watches maybe 15 games year just because i make him) but he watches ATH and he told me hey the arguments those guys made for nash make alot of sense(this is because I have been telling him for 3 weeks it had to be lebron or dirk.) The problem is that there are ALOT of people like that and alot of them are mvp voters. They hear that Nash has no help and Dirk has way too much help(amazing that they forget that help when they predict the mavs will get destroyed by the spurs) They say that the only reason any of these guys are in the nba is steve nash. Never mind that Raja Bell was good enough to get a MLE contract playing in UTAH. Never mind that Marion was a star before Nash. Never mind that Boris Diaw has a higher +/- than Nash. Nm that...... I can go on for a while. The point is they hear it and they believe it. No they may not get their opinion on that from that particular show but when you hear something over and over again, ie nash is the mvp or he has no help yada yada yada, unless you feel strongly about it you will be swayed by what you hear. I can hear that nash is the mvp and should be an infinite amount of times and it will do nothing but annoy me. However if you dont have a strong feeling one way or another hearing it over and over again will make you think that if its so obvious to so many it must be true. I have given up on the mvp voters. They are a collective group of retards with an iq that is the numerical equivalent of Kate Moss' pants size.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

They are a collective group of retards with an iq that is the numerical equivalent of Kate Moss' pant size.

Personally, I would have went with nose sores caused by cocaine, but I guess that would have been a higher number!

[Nemesis]

Some of you are too emotional to think or argue about this clearly. What do you think, five-0fan, someone is feeding them the line "Nash for MVP" every 180 seconds when they hit the button. Or they are getting some kind of shock treatment. "Ouch, ok, ok, Nash for MVP!!" Please.

[sixeightmkw]

Originally Posted by Blab's Nemesis

Nash has been the best player in the NBA THIS year sixeightmkw, for alot of different reasons other than statistics i.e. Kobe Bryant. You take him away from that team and they would fall off the map THIS year (which is a good argument for the Laker's and Kobe granted) . So that argument is very weak. If your and the "Musers" second argument were true then Michael Jordan would have been MVP from 1984 - 1998. Give or take a couple of years. So that argument is completely absurb and I find it totally based on emotion. Nash had it won at the All-Star break.

in absolutely NO WAY was Nash the best player in the NBA this year. If you think that, then you are a Nash homer. This isn't a Dirk thing either. Lebron should be the MVP. He is and has been the best player in the NBA all year long. Nash runs a wacked out offense and that is IT. He has an inkling better stats than he had here in DAllas and he would have never even been an afterthought to be MVP in those years. And I am so freakin sick of the argument that if you take him off the team blah blah blah. That does not make an MVP. Please read my post above and you would easily see that every team minus their all star would fall off the map. Actually, Marion's +/- on off court is better than Nash's so actually, if Marion weren't on the team, they would fall off the map. Does that make him the MVP or what?

[Five-ofan]

No i think they watch shows and read articles and they all say Nash is the mvp or when they watch the games that are national tv nash is always mentioned. Like i said hear it enough with no strong feelings and you will go with what you heard alot. IE everyone said phoenix didnt miss a beat. Yes they did. They went from having the best record in the nba to the 3rd best in the conference and from a truly elit regular season team to a good but not great team. That is missing a huge beat.

[Five-ofan]

Actually if you take dirk off the mavs and nash off the suns i think the suns have at least an equal record. Since the mavs are signifigantly better now that means dirk is more valuable than nash even if you want to use that way of measuring it. IT had to be dirk or lebron. Just had to be. If Lebron had won fine. It would have been a tough decision between him and dirk but nash wouldnt have been close. For him to win is just an effing joke.

[kg_veteran]

Anyone who is honest about it should admit that Nash is the weakest MVP in NBA history. Both years.

[Nemesis]

Nash MVP. I guess all the voters have lost their rocker and your biased emotional rant is right on target. Hmm. This debate has lost its luster. Have fun crying about it. We have an NBA championship to feast our eyes on.

[sixeightmkw]

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

Nash now joins an elite group of back to back winners. Look at this shit. This is totally ridiculous.

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlane
Kareem Abdul Jabar
Moses Malone
Majic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Tim Duncan

and now

STEVE FREAKIN NASH<
.

Hell, I left off the last white dude to get MVP, Larry Bird.
Nash comes no where near sniffing their jocks with a 20 ft straw.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Anyone who is honest about it should admit that Nash is the weakest MVP in NBA history. Both years.

What about Walton in '78 or Cowens in '73? For that matter, how do you compare Nash to Cousy in '57?

I think it's time that we open our eyes to the fact that we are witnessing the best point guard of the past ten years, and perhaps the next ten. I understand that a lot of people are biased against the "little guys" in basketball, but you still have to recognize the greatness that we are witnessing.

[sixeightmkw]

hhmmmm, better point guards in the leage right now than Nash?
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
possibly Jason Kidd
Welp, theres 3 right there. So IMHO, I am not witnessing the BEST point guard of the past 10 years.

Yes, I know. Nash is a great point guard. He did alot of great things while he was here. He is a focal point of the Suns offense. But he is NOT an MVP, nor is he or will he be the BEST point guard in the league of the past 10 years or future 10 years.

[sixeightmkw]

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

hhmmmm, better point guards in the leage right now than Nash?
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
possibly Jason Kidd
Welp, theres 3 right there. So IMHO, I am not witnessing the BEST point guard of the past 10 years.

Yes, I know. Nash is a great point guard. He did alot of great things while he was here. He is a focal point of the Suns offense. But he is NOT an MVP, nor is he or will he be the BEST point guard in the league of the past 10 years or future 10 years.

oh, and it only took one year for Chris Paul to be better than Nash.

[a.weidner]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

What about Walton in '78 or Cowens in '73? For that matter, how do you compare Nash to Cousy in '57?

I think it's time that we open our eyes to the fact that we are witnessing the best point guard of the past ten years, and perhaps the next ten. I understand that a lot of people are biased against the "little guys" in basketball, but you still have to recognize the greatness that we are witnessing.

What greatness are we witnessing exactly? A 54-wins-season and a possible first round exit, by a team with 2 MVP contenders? i see...

If I were to choose a PG of the last decade in his prime, to build a team around. I would
take Stockton or Kidd. I certainly would not take Nash. Heck, I would have a hard time taking Nash over Payton.
Funny that of these 4 players Nash is the only one who's got an MVP award, I mean two of course.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

What about Walton in '78 or Cowens in '73? For that matter, how do you compare Nash to Cousy in '57?

In 1978, Walton put up 18.9 ppg, 13.2 rpg, 5.0 apg, and 2.5 bpg. He had a PER of 24.8. His team had the best record in the West. I'll admit that Walton is also one of the weakest MVPs, but Nash and his PER of 22.0 last year and 23.2 this year are still weaker.

I guess I could give you Cowens, but he did post 20 ppg, 16 rpg, and 4+ apg, right? And his team won 68 games. At best, I'd call that a push for worst MVP ever.

I think it's time that we open our eyes to the fact that we are witnessing the best point guard of the past ten years, and perhaps the next ten.

I think John Stockton, Gary Payton, Sam Cassell, and perhaps Jason Kidd would argue differently.

Look, I think he's a great player. I just have a different view of how he rates historically than you do, apparently.

BTW, as for the next 10 years, who knows? You might be right. We can take that up as we go along, I suppose.

I understand that a lot of people are biased against the "little guys" in basketball, but you still have to recognize the greatness that we are witnessing.

I'm not. I really think he's a great player. I do think the Mavs are better off without him. I realize that opinions may differ on that subject. And I'm okay with that.