Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...

[orangedays]

...it tolls for thee, Phoenix.


Dallas Mavericks

2002-03

60-22 - 1st (tie) best record in the West
#1 Offense in the NBA
Dallas advances to Western Conference Finals and are defeated by San Antonio 4-2.

2003-2004

52-30 - 5th best record in the West
#1 Offense in the NBA
Dallas defeated in First Round of the playoffs by Sacramento 4-1.


Phoenix Suns

2004-2005

62-20 - 1st best record in the West
#1 Offense in the NBA
Phoenix advances to Western Conference Finals and are defeated by San Antonio 4-1.

2005-2006

54-28 - 3rd best record in the West
#1 Offense in the NBA
Phoenix...(?)

____________________________

Prediction: Steve Nash has taken this Suns team as far as they can go. He did it for us, and now he's doing it in Phoenix.

[chumdawg]

I think John Donne wrote it as "never send to know."

In the same work he also wrote:

Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a tiny clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less. As well as if a promontory were, or as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were. Every man's death diminishes me, because I am a part of mankind.

I think you misinterpret Donne here.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think John Donne wrote it as "never send to know."

In the same work he also wrote:

Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a tiny clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less. As well as if a promontory were, or as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were. Every man's death diminishes me, because I am a part of mankind.

I think you misinterpret Donne here.

If you want to defend Nash just say so chum (Though I would much prefer we not to get into that again...or at least wait until after Finals)

I'm aware of the original context from Meditation 17, I just wanted to wax poetic a bit after my outburst of crudeness in the Laker/Phoenix thread. And out of context I think it sounds quite nice.

[chumdawg]

John Donne would never approve of your taking such pleasure in the sufferings of another man. And he would definitely object to your doing it his name.

If you are going to be classless, at least leave Donne out of it.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

John Donne would never approve of your taking such pleasure in the sufferings of another man. And he would definitely object to your doing it his name.

If you are going to be classless, at least leave Donne out of it.

You presume in saying that I am 'taking pleasure' in the sufferings of another man (I assume you're referring to Steve Nash).

That's a salty accusation. What in my original post would suggest such a 'classless' thing to you?

[chumdawg]

No, no. Not just Steve Nash. The entire '04 Mavericks squad, who were ousted in the First Round. And the entire '06 Phoenix squad, for whom the bell is tolling.

Ooooh, are we going gloves-off now? I haven't had a good tilt with OrangeDays in a while.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

No, no. Not just Steve Nash. The entire '04 Mavericks squad, who were ousted in the First Round. And the entire '06 Phoenix squad, for whom the bell is tolling.

Ooooh, are we going gloves-off now? I haven't had a good tilt with OrangeDays in a while.

My goodness, are we to assume that it is 'taking pleasure' and 'classless' to cite history?

And then use such history to draw a possible corollary to the present?

Heaven forbid, perhaps some of us have their gloves on too tight.

[chumdawg]

It's called trampling on a man's grave. And it's widely recognized to be classless.

It's also called a quick trigger finger. Let the Suns die before you start dancing on the freshly laid soil.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It's called trampling on a man's grave. And it's widely recognized to be classless.

It's also called a quick trigger finger. Let the Suns die before you start dancing on the freshly laid soil.

There is no dancing going on, no "Who Let The Dogs Out" playing in the background as I moonwalk my way across both the tombs of the '04 Mavs and the "freshly laid soil" of the '06 Suns.

No Mavericks fan would derive pleasure from recounting our past indignities. To tell the truth, it pains me to recall our Mavericks of yesteryear for I would much prefer our mantle be decorated with trophies galore - rather than sit empty, collecting so much dust. Again, you presume to believe that you understand my motives.

There are amazing similarities between the Mavericks of yore and today's Phoenix Suns, no? Are we to castigate those who point those similarities out? Certainly not.

And making a prediction equates to a quick-trigger finger? Very well then, call me Quick Draw McGraw.

To accuse a fellow gentleman of being classless for being a historian, well sir, one might deem such an act to be...classless.

[chumdawg]

Your creating a thread to crow about it is enough evidence of motive for me. True, I do not pretend to know your accompaniment of choice, but dancing you are. You are clearly happy about the demise of both the '04 Mavericks and (purportedly) the '06 Suns. Or, to put a finer point on it, you are happy about the similarities you find in your crude analysis.

I fully expect you to say next that the Suns should trade Steve Nash for Erick Dampier and find themselves in the Finals.

[Dtownsfinest]

Let's say the Suns do lose. I think it has more to do with not having Amare and Kurt Thomas if anything. If the Lakers do advance expect Brand to Amare the Lakers interior. This a series where Amare would have his way.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Your creating a thread to crow about it is enough evidence of motive for me. True, I do not pretend to know your accompaniment of choice, but dancing you are. You are clearly happy about the demise of both the '04 Mavericks and (purportedly) the '06 Suns. Or, to put a finer point on it, you are happy about the similarities you find in your crude analysis.

Such presumption. I have already stated, quite clearly, that I am not happy about the demise of the 2004 Mavericks. Taping wings to a horse and calling it a fowl does not make it so.

Ignore the 'analysis' if you so wish, are you to tell me that the noteables I laid out in my first post are untrue?

I fully expect you to say next that the Suns should trade Steve Nash for Erick Dampier and find themselves in the Finals.

Swing and a miss!

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Let's say the Suns do lose. I think it has more to do with not having Amare and Kurt Thomas if anything. If the Lakers do advance expect Brand to Amare the Lakers interior. This a series where Amare would have his way.

We're not still pulling the Amare card are we? Amare would have his way in most any series. But he's been gone for an entire season now - let's not pin Phoenix's effort in the Lakers series on him.

[Dtownsfinest]

I'm referring to this comment:

"Steve Nash has taken this Suns team as far as they can go. He did it for us, and now he's doing it in Phoenix."

Its hard for me to consider this team finished when they don't have the most dominant big man in the game. Don't you think he's a factor in their success? I think next season is the real test for the Suns. For what they're really made of. This year its hard to tell without Amare.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I'm referring to this comment:

"Steve Nash has taken this Suns team as far as they can go. He did it for us, and now he's doing it in Phoenix."

Its hard for me to consider this team finished when they don't have the most dominant big man in the game. Don't you think he's a factor in their success? I think next season is the real test for the Suns. For what they're really made of. This year its hard to tell without Amare.

That's fair enough, we shall see if Amare comes back full bore and whether or not he can be as dominant as he was last season. If so, I may have to eat my words. If not, then perhaps we are seeing an early Sunset in Phoenix.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by orangedays

Ignore the 'analysis' if you so wish, are you to tell me that the noteables I laid out in my first post are untrue?

"Noteables?" What does that mean?

All I say you laying out in your original post was a far-fetched coincidence, at best.

And a mean-spirited one, at that.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

"Noteables?" What does that mean?

All I say you laying out in your original post was a far-fetched coincidence, at best.

And a mean-spirited one, at that.

Ignore the 'analysis' if you so wish, are you to tell me that the (information) I laid out in my first post (is) untrue?

A 'far-fetched coincidence' but a coincidence nonetheless. I am certainly not stating for a fact that the Nash-Dynasty in Phoenix is over. All I am pointing out is that the Mavericks, in the two years prior to Nash's departure experienced similar success...and (depending on how this series plays out) similar disappointment.

I am not stating the future, merely predicting it (admittedly somewhat tongue-in-cheek) using the facts available to me as precedent.

And mean-spirited? Come now, I would hope that through our many exchanges you would have realized that I have not a mean-spirited bone in my body. Sarcastic, wry, and ironical ones, though, I possess in spades.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by orangedays

A 'far-fetched coincidence' but a coincidence nonetheless. I am certainly not stating for a fact that the Nash-Dynasty in Phoenix is over. All I am pointing out is that the Mavericks, in the two years prior to Nash's departure experienced similar success...and (depending on how this series plays out) similar disappointment.

I am not stating the future, merely predicting it (admittedly somewhat tongue-in-cheek) using the facts available to me as precedent.

And mean-spirited? Come now, I would hope that through our many exchanges you would have realized that I have not a mean-spirited bone in my body. Sarcastic, wry, and ironical ones, though, I possess in spades.

OD, you tried to make a connection to the '04 Mavs and the '06 Suns. No such connection exists. Not at all. Not one. Further, you attempted to hurry defeat upon the Suns by saying that the bell tolls for them.

See, the things you are citing (games won, both in the regular season and in the playoffs) are in no way remarkable. They are not in and of themselves barometers of the factors that you would try to claim they are barometers of.

Next tell me that Lincoln died in Ford Theatre, and that Kennedy died in a Ford, or somesuch. Or that someone has the same number of letters in their name. I'd meet it just as well.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It's called trampling on a man's grave. And it's widely recognized to be classless.

If you can't trample on a dead man's grave, then who's grave can you trample on?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

If you can't trample on a dead man's grave, then who's grave can you trample on?

Good Point

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

OD, you tried to make a connection to the '04 Mavs and the '06 Suns. No such connection exists. Not at all. Not one. Further, you attempted to hurry defeat upon the Suns by saying that the bell tolls for them.

None? Steve Nash was/is the PG for both teams.

The historical connection I am drawing is between the 2002-03 Mavericks and the 2004-05 Suns. There, the connections are quite obvious. The suggestion I am making is that such a corollation will carry over to the 2005-06 Suns. The outcome of the Lakers series shall tell whether you or I are correct and perhaps defeat shall be hurried on the Suns not by me, but by our good friends out west.

See, the things you are citing (games won, both in the regular season and in the playoffs) are in no way remarkable. They are not in and of themselves barometers of the factors that you would try to claim they are barometers of.

I need no education on what kinds of data can be accurately used to inference a conclusion. The fact that you are taking this thread so seriously suggests to me that there is an open wound, a gash if you will, that has not healed since Steve left this organization. Take a breath, affix a band-aid, and realize that the facts presented herein are not meant to support a de facto statement that the Suns will lose their series. Rather, it is an observation of coincidence. A pattern, that may or may not repeat itself in this year's playoffs.

Next tell me that Lincoln died in Ford Theatre, and that Kennedy died in a Ford, or somesuch. Or that someone has the same number of letters in their name. I'd meet it just as well.

Your analogy is a tad far-fetched. If both Lincoln and Kennedy were shot in Ford's Theatre, or both in a Lincoln Continental (the "Kennedy Car", irony no?), then I would suggest a corollary.

EDIT:

Ugh...grammar

[Drbio]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

If you can't trample on a dead man's grave, then who's grave can you trample on?

Maybe he should have pissed on it?


All those graves for the live guys were unoccupied I guess.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

If you can't trample on a dead man's grave, then who's grave can you trample on?

Hey, genius, did I say anything about trampling on a dead man's grave?

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I'm referring to this comment:

"Steve Nash has taken this Suns team as far as they can go. He did it for us, and now he's doing it in Phoenix."

Its hard for me to consider this team finished when they don't have the most dominant big man in the game. Don't you think he's a factor in their success? I think next season is the real test for the Suns. For what they're really made of. This year its hard to tell without Amare.

Dtown, I think the Suns and the NBA may well have seen the last of the 2005 vintage Stoudamire. Looks more and more like he will be fortunate to be 70% of the player he was last year, and that it could take him a year or so to get back to that level.

He may have to change his entire approach to the game and develop a very different skill set. He may have the discipline and perseverance to do that successfully, assuming his rehab allows it. But he may not. And will Nash be playing at the same level when/(if) Stoudamire gets back?

Had an odd sense of deja vu today watching Nash, playing all out, giving it his best, and coming up a little bit short. He's a great, great player. Fun to watch--more fun now for me, because his lack of defense isn't as bothersome on the Suns, and he's playing in a system that totally maxes his strengths, and minimizes his weaknesses. Felt bad for him today. To be honest, I think Nash may be too nice a guy. I don't think Nash has the same sort of nasty, competitive streak in him that a player like Kobe or MJ does; the kind of anti-social competitive nature that makes a player enjoy beating an opponent just for the sake of expressing dominance. Nash strikes me as a guy who loves playing his sport for the sake of sport; for the sheer joy of performing at a high level. And even if talent were equal (and let's face it, they're not), when it gets down to do-or-die, anti-social competitive streaks confer an advantage.

Would have loved for him to be able to stay with the Mavericks providing a top-flight offensive threat off the bench. I find myself wondering during Mavs games how many dunks Diop would get off Nash feeds.
But I don't think the Mavs would have transitioned as successfully to the level of defensive team that they are if Nash had stayed as a starter. Don't know that they'd have strengthened their interior with Dampier, don't know that Dirk would have become as assertive as he is.

Comparing the trajectories of the 02 and 04 Mavs with those of the 05 and 06 Suns may involve some coincidence. But it may also suggest that a one-dimensional style of play can be high-risk, high-reward; thiat it isn't durable; that playoff calibre opponents figure out how to exploit it.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Hey, genius, did I say anything about trampling on a dead man's grave?

No, but I still wanted to utter the line.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by orangedays

None? Steve Nash was/is the PG for both teams.

There you go. There you go. Why couldn't you be man enough and say it in the first place? Instead you sullied the name of the great John Donne by attempting to use him to support your vitriol.

Look, I don't have a problem with your Steve Nash hate. I don't have a problem with the joy you feel when Nash's teams fail. You aren't the only one. There are many people around these parts who would just as soon see Steve Nash homeless on the streets.

But come out and say it, man! Don't make me squeeze it out of you. At least have the courage of your convictions. As I do.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

There you go. There you go. Why couldn't you be man enough and say it in the first place? Instead you sullied the name of the great John Donne by attempting to use him to support your vitriol.

But come out and say it, man! Don't make me squeeze it out of you. At least have the courage of your convictions. As I do.

I had no idea chum! So you missed this line at the end of my VERY FIRST POST:

Originally Posted by orangedays

Prediction: Steve Nash has taken this Suns team as far as they can go. He did it for us, and now he's doing it in Phoenix.

There it was! For all the world to see...how silly of me...or you.

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Look, I don't have a problem with your Steve Nash hate. I don't have a problem with the joy you feel when Nash's teams fail. You aren't the only one. There are many people around these parts who would just as soon see Steve Nash homeless on the streets.

"Hate" is such a powerful word. I defer from using that word to describe what I feel - let's replace it with...competitive dislike? I wish Steve Nash nothing but the best in life and love, but when it comes to NBA basketball and Suns v. Mavs - I wish him nothing but failure.

If that makes me a horrible, classless person...well...I guess you would be just as classless for feeling the opposite of whatever it is that I feel.

EDIT: Typos are killin me tonight. Just like the Kings are killing the Spurs.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Look, I don't have a problem with your Steve Nash hate. I don't have a problem with the joy you feel when Nash's teams fail. You aren't the only one. There are many people around these parts who would just as soon see Steve Nash homeless on the streets.

And I just wanted to clarify something here - any "hate" that I may have is not directed merely at Nash. It is directed at every...I repeat...every single player, coach, trainer, towelboy, and Gatorade-girl who is not part and parcel of the Dallas Mavericks organization.

I am a Dallas Mavericks fan, through and through. Recently, Nash has drawn my ire because his team could possibly contend with ours for the championship. All are enemies, but Nash is a more dangerous one because he is good. Lesser teams are not even worthy of my "hate" - you don't see me spitting game on Ray Allen, for instance.

So, in a sense, my "hate" for Nash is the best kind of compliment, at least for a non-Mav.

[dude1394]

boy this has evolved into one of the weirder threads I can remember.

[chumdawg]

I missed that part of your OP. If I saw it, I'm sure I thought it was part of your sig.

The difference we have is that you wish evil on former Mavericks greats, while I wish them all the best. Granted, I have quite a juggling act to do, balancing my interest in the current Mavs with my interest in the former Mavs. I'd be lying if I said that I didn't feel a WHOLE lot worse when the Mavs lost to the Spurs in '03 than I did when they lost to the Suns in '05.

But still and all, we have veered off track. The point of your thread was that Nash was going to fail the Suns just as he "failed" the Mavs. And my contention was that if he "failed" the Mavs in '04, there were mitigating circumstances (they were named Walker and Jamison), and if he "failed" the Suns in '06 there were also mitigating circumstances (they are named Kobe Bryant).

It was a simplistic and juvenile parallel you attempted to make. It didn't meet the standards of analysis that this board is known for.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I missed that part of your OP. If I saw it, I'm sure I thought it was part of your sig.

No harm no foul.

The difference we have is that you wish evil on former Mavericks greats, while I wish them all the best. Granted, I have quite a juggling act to do, balancing my interest in the current Mavs with my interest in the former Mavs. I'd be lying if I said that I didn't feel a WHOLE lot worse when the Mavs lost to the Spurs in '03 than I did when they lost to the Suns in '05.

I did address this in my previous post but I shall do so again - my ultimately loyalties lie with these Dallas Mavericks. The ones we root for today. I wish evil, fire and brimstone on everyone else - Mavericks greats or no. I am, for all intents and purposes, an equal-opportunity hater when it comes to non-Mavericks players. Now, should the Mavericks exit the playoffs earlier than I expect, I have no issue cheering on former Mavs. But that distinction doesn't exist for me so long as my beloved Dallas team continues to breathe. And sir, I certainly hope you are not suggesting you would feel torn between rooting for the Mavs and Suns should they meet!

But still and all, we have veered off track. The point of your thread was that Nash was going to fail the Suns just as he "failed" the Mavs. And my contention was that if he "failed" the Mavs in '04, there were mitigating circumstances (they were named Walker and Jamison), and if he "failed" the Suns in '06 there were also mitigating circumstances (they are named Kobe Bryant).

Incorrect, the point of this thread was that a Suns team with Nash at the helm might fail to reach the promise land, just as the Mavericks team with Nash at the helm failed to reach said promise land. The blame may or may not be shouldered by Nash alone (considering the mitigating circumstances) but that doesn't change the end-result. There is a big difference between my stating an opinion and making a prediction versus my making a matter-of-fact statement.

It was a simplistic and juvenile parallel you attempted to make. It didn't meet the standards of analysis that this board is known for.

Simplistic and juvenile? Nein. It was purely tongue-in-cheek. However, if the Lakers do manage to defeat the Suns in their first round series - this "simplistic and juvenile parallel" will have proven to be surprisingly useful. If I am proven incorrect and the Suns prevail, then you are free to shower this thread with whatever praise you wish.

[chumdawg]

What does "nein" mean?

I don't have the ability you do to root for the jersey as opposed to the human wearing the jersey. (Or in the case of the coach, the suit or sportcoat.) I know a lot of people around here do, but I just don't get it. (And for that matter, I don't believe them, not in the least.) If the Mavericks were somehow able to strike a trade, today, roster for roster with the Spurs--I mean it, entire roster for entire roster--would your enthusiasm for the new team not change one iota from where it was before?

See, for me it would change a lot. I love me some Dirk Nowitzki. I love me some Adrian Griffin. I love me some Josh Howard. I love me some Marquis Daniels. I love me some DeSagana Diop. On certain nights I even love me some Jason Terry or Erick Dampier or Jerry Stackhouse or Devin Harris. Oh, and I really love me some DJ Benga.

I have a certain attachment to those guys, you know. On one level, it's the jersey they wear. But there are levels deeper than that.

I do realize that the more casual fan such as yourself does not form such strong attachments to the individual players involved. You are more interested in box scores than biographies. If that works for you, fine, but please understand that there are fans such as me who get a bit more involved.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

What does "nein" mean?

"No", in Nowitzki.

I don't have the ability you do to root for the jersey as opposed to the human wearing the jersey. (Or in the case of the coach, the suit or sportcoat.) I know a lot of people around here do, but I just don't get it. (And for that matter, I don't believe them, not in the least.) If the Mavericks were somehow able to strike a trade, today, roster for roster with the Spurs--I mean it, entire roster for entire roster--would your enthusiasm for the new team not change one iota from where it was before?

Are we to delve into radical hypotheticals? What if the Earth was sucked into a blackhole? Would you still be a Mavs fan? I believe my scenario has just as high of a probability of occuring as yours - zilch (or, to be more accurate, almost zilch).

See, for me it would change a lot. I love me some Dirk Nowitzki. I love me some Adrian Griffin. I love me some Josh Howard. I love me some Marquis Daniels. I love me some DeSagana Diop. On certain nights I even love me some Jason Terry or Erick Dampier or Jerry Stackhouse or Devin Harris. Oh, and I really love me some DJ Benga.

I have a certain attachment to those guys, you know. On one level, it's the jersey they wear. But there are levels deeper than that.

So with Nash and Finley gone, and let's say Nowitzki, and Griffin, and Howard, and Daniels, and Diop, and DJ move on...that's alot of chumlove to spread around. Are you sure you're going to be able to handle it? Spurstalk.com and phxsuns.com won't know what hit'em!

I do realize that the more casual fan such as yourself does not form such strong attachments to the individual players involved. You are more interested in box scores than biographies. If that works for you, fine, but please understand that there are fans such as me who get a bit more involved.

My situation differs a bit from yours and a number of other people's on this board. Orangedays' attachment to the Mavericks actually started when I was still attending an international school in Shanghai, China and the Dallas Mavericks drafted, in the 2nd Round, the first Chinese player to play in the NBA. So began my love affair. Wang has since moved on to greener...or some color...pastures. I remain.

The sad fact of the matter is, I shall probably never see the Mavs play in person - unless it is at the Garden next year (or in the Bronx many years from now). I shall never set foot in the American Airlines center, and I shall never know what it means to root for the 'home team'.

Yes chum, you're right. I am a casual fan. I don't really know anything about the Mavericks and I don't care about how they perform aside from the boxscores. My presence on this board is a farce - our discussion tonight further supports your argument. I am, as you have previously stated (verbatim), the epitome of the bandwagoner. Mavericks fans the world over are fortunate to have grizzled veterans such as yourself who lash themselves loyally to every remnant of Mavericks history and chastise those of us who haven't been around as long as you. Because of course, you know more by virtue of the fact that you've been around longer, right? Again, you are right chum...so right.

Oh wait. No...you're dead wrong.

Oops.

[Male30Dan]

I detect sarcasm in this thread!

[chumdawg]

I was appreciating the obeisance you were paying me, up until that penultimate sentence.

So let me get this straight. You came on board when the Mavericks drafted Wang Zhi Zhi, and you are going to tell *me* something about being a Mavs fan? Buddy, I was here when the mavs were drafting Mark Aguirre and Rolando Blackman and Derek Harper and a whole host of (other?) guys you have never heard of.

I've seen the team through thick and thin. Through a heart-wrenching loss in the Western Conference Finals when you were probably still in diapers. When Aguirre and Blackman and Harper lost to the likes of Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and James Worthy. You may have heard those names, but you didn't watch those guys play.

And I was there, watching night in and night out when the Mavs were winning about one game in eight. I savored those wins, brother. And I had a healthy respect for the (few) guys who were deserving of them.

OrangeDays, if you haven't suffered the hard times, you have no idea how precious the good times are. You have no idea how valuable guys like Steve Nash and Eddie Najera and Mike Finley are. With due respect, I would appreciate it if you would keep your criticisms to yourself.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I was appreciating the obeisance you were paying me, up until that penultimate sentence.

If it seems too good to be true, it probably is

So let me get this straight. You came on board when the Mavericks drafted Wang Zhi Zhi, and you are going to tell *me* something about being a Mavs fan?

Certainly not! I'm shocked and chagrined that you have interpreted my posts as a chastisement of you.

I've seen the team through thick and thin. Through a heart-wrenching loss in the Western Conference Finals when you were probably still in diapers. When Aguirre and Blackman and Harper lost to the likes of Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and James Worthy. You may have heard those names, but you didn't watch those guys play.

And I was there, watching night in and night out when the Mavs were winning about one game in eight. I savored those wins, brother. And I had a healthy respect for the (few) guys who were deserving of them.

OrangeDays, if you haven't suffered the hard times, you have no idea how precious the good times are. You have no idea how valuable guys like Steve Nash and Eddie Najera and Mike Finley are. With due respect, I would appreciate it if you would keep your criticisms to yourself.

Hot damn chum, you've confirmed what I suspected.

You honestly believe I don't know as much about this Mavs team because I wasn't around for Rolando and Mark?

With the moat that you're digging around yourself, you're going to be awfully lonely on that island if you're going to dismiss people who haven't been around as long as you. A healthy respect for fans who know what they're talking about is highly recommended - elitism based on tenure is not.

[chumdawg]

OrangeDays, there a lot of people in these parts who lived through the thrills of the late 80's and suffered through the 90's. A lot. You would be well served to try to learn something from them, rather than dismissing them out of hand.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

OrangeDays, there a lot of people in these parts who lived through the thrills of the late 80's and suffered through the 90's. A lot. You would be well served to try to learn something from them, rather than dismissing them out of hand.

Sir, again you presume. I am certainly not dismissing anyone - if anything, I would say that you are the one being dismissive.

I frequent these boards and read the comments of many veterans with the purpose of learning more about the Mavericks. If I weren't trying to learn, why would I come? I don't think I've come off as any sort of holier-than-thou poster (well, most of the time).

You have seriously misunderstood me if you believe my intent is to dismiss those who have been around longer than I. The point of my previous post was that one should not hang their hat on tenure alone and wave-off those of us who may not have the benefit of an additional decade of Mavericks-watching. I respect people for their insight and opinions, not age, post-count, or how long they've watched the Mavs. That said, I have the utmost respect for the vets around here, I merely feel that such respect should be reciprocated if a young'un has proven his (or her) worth. You are an amiable guy. Would you agree with that?

[chumdawg]

I certainly welcome Mavericks fans of all ages and experience levels, provided they treat the franchise and the people who came through it with the respect that they deserve.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I certainly welcome Mavericks fans of all ages and experience levels, provided they treat the franchise and the people who came through it with the respect that they deserve.

How generous of you, chum. As I have an exam tomorrow morning (6 hours time), I think that will have to do for now.

As always, a pleasure.