Poll: Who is the best overall player in the NBA? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

nashtymavsfan13 · 05-03-2006, 11:51 PM

Unfortunatley, I'd have to go with Lebron. Lebron gets the slight edge over Dirk defensively.

Dirk is definetly top 5, probably top 3. But trying to be honest with this one, I have to go with Lebron.

Murphy3 · 05-03-2006, 11:56 PM

I don't think that I could go with Dirk. However, I do believe that Dirk CAN be the guy that has the biggest impact on the game over the playoffs. But, he just hasn't been playing at this level long enough.... but, neither has LeBron.

If Dirk were to post up some remarkable numbers during these playoffs as the Mavs win the championship and he were to back it up with an MVP season next year, then you could definitely make a strong case for him being the best player in the NBA. But as it stands, I don't think you can put Dirk as the best player in the league.... To me, he just hasn't done it quite long enough yet.

Now, I will say that he might have been the best player in the NBA since February on into the playoffs....but, i'd have to do a little research before I definitively said that one way or the other.

nashtymavsfan13 · 05-03-2006, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I don't think that I could go with Dirk. However, I do believe that Dirk CAN be the guy that has the biggest impact on the game over the playoffs. But, he just hasn't been playing at this level long enough.... but, neither has LeBron.

If Dirk were to post up some remarkable numbers during these playoffs as the Mavs win the championship and he were to back it up with an MVP season next year, then you could definitely make a strong case for him being the best player in the NBA. But as it stands, I don't think you can put Dirk as the best player in the league.... To me, he just hasn't done it quite long enough yet.

Now, I will say that he might have been the best player in the NBA since February on into the playoffs....but, i'd have to do a little research before I definitively said that one way or the other.

That being said, who's ur choice?

Murphy3 · 05-03-2006, 11:59 PM

Well, that only leaves Kobe. But, I won't say Kobe simply because of his selfish nature. LeBron has in no way done it long enough for me. LeBron has been at this level a shorter time than Dirk. Dirk just doesn't get the hype.

Now, do I think Kobe is the league MVP? No, not in the least bit. His team has suddenly become more successful once he actually started playing team ball. If he would have done so the entire season, the Lakers would have posted a 50 win season. But, team ball just hasn't been Kobe's style.

Murphy3 · 05-04-2006, 12:01 AM

But, it sure isn't Tim Duncan. I might have said him in the not too distant past. But, he's not even the best Power Forward in Texas.

nashtymavsfan13 · 05-04-2006, 12:03 AM

Lebron definetly has the potential to be as good as Jordan.

Definetly better than Kobe.

Murphy3 · 05-04-2006, 12:06 AM

I agree that LeBron has the potential to be a better player than what Kobe has been throughout his career.

nashtymavsfan13 · 05-04-2006, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I agree that LeBron has the potential to be a better player than what Kobe has been throughout his career.

And I agree, that he hasnt done it long enough yet.

Murphy3 · 05-04-2006, 12:14 AM

Right now, I'd say that there isn't a guy that I'd place as the 'best player' in the NBA. LeBron hasn't done it long enough. Dirk has a chance to step up to that level with a great run here in the post season and on into next season. Kobe has to prove that he's not selfish... Tim Duncan just wasn't up to his normal standards this year. Shaq has fallen off quite a bit. Wade is close, but I saw more of LeBron stepping up late in the season than Wade. Garnett just doesn't do a thing for me offensively. Yeah, he's a good offensive player, but do you want him to have the ball the last 5 minutes of regulation in a close game? Do you want him to be the guy that's carrying your team in the playoffs? No, of course not. McGrady wasn't quite there when he was healthy. He hasn't been healthy in awhile. Right now, I'd put Yao ahead of him simply because I just don't know how well McGrady recovers. Nash isn't even the clear cut best player on his team to many. He's great offensively, but he's far and away the worst defensively on the list.

It'll be interesting to see how the next few weeks sort themself out.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-04-2006, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WayOutWest

No way Dirk's TD's equal last year, this year maybe but ONLY because TD has been playing hurt all year.

A healthy TD is a better player than Dirk, not as versitile offensively but just as effective and better on D. Not to mention the number of titles he's LED his teams too.

You obviously didn't watch NBA Basketball last season if you think Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal.

2004-2005

Dirk

26.1 PPG
.459 FG%
.869 FT%
.399 3pt%
9.7 RPG
3.1 APG

Duncan

20.3 PPG
.496 FG%
.670 FT%
.333 3pt%
11.1 RPG
2.7 APG

Actually, you're right. Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal last year. He was BETTER.

And please, for the love of god, don't use the titles as your only support. If the number of titles a player has dictates how good he is, or determines if one player is better than another, then Horace Grant was a better player than Patrick Ewing. Robert Horry is as good as Michael Jordan. Mark Aguirre was a better player than Elgin Baylor. It's bullshit.

Male30Dan · 05-04-2006, 12:26 AM

You voted for Other Murph... Who is your choice?

Thespiralgoeson · 05-04-2006, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

Unfortunatley, I'd have to go with Lebron. Lebron gets the slight edge over Dirk defensively.

No way. If LeBron's a better player than Dirk, it's because of his passing. Neither of them are great defenders, but LeBron is NOT a better defender than Dirk. I have no problem with someone saying that LeBron's a better player, because frankly, I agree. But it's definitely not because of his defense. And if defense is the tie-breaker, then you have GOT to go with Kobe. 5 all-defensive team selections just don't lie.

Murphy3 · 05-04-2006, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

You voted for Other Murph... Who is your choice?

no choice right now... I don't think that there is anyone that stands out in my mind as the best player in the league...

Yes, I'm taking the easy way out....

Male30Dan · 05-04-2006, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

no choice right now... I don't think that there is anyone that stands out in my mind as the best player in the league...

Yes, I'm taking the easy way out....

Fair enough... I just wanted you to say that or a name.

nashtymavsfan13 · 05-04-2006, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

You obviously didn't watch NBA Basketball last season if you think Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal.

2004-2005

Dirk

26.1 PPG
.459 FG%
.869 FT%
.399 3pt%
9.7 RPG
3.1 APG

Duncan

20.3 PPG
.496 FG%
.670 FT%
.333 3pt%
11.1 RPG
2.7 APG

Actually, you're right. Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal last year. He was BETTER.

And please, for the love of god, don't use the titles as your only support. If the number of titles a player has dictates how good he is, or determines if one player is better than another, then Horace Grant was a better player than Patrick Ewing. Robert Horry is as good as Michael Jordan. Mark Aguirre was a better player than Elgin Baylor. It's bullshit.

Dirk was definetly better than TD last year, no question.

nashtymavsfan13 · 05-04-2006, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

No way. If LeBron's a better player than Dirk, it's because of his passing. Neither of them are great defenders, but LeBron is NOT a better defender than Dirk. I have no problem with someone saying that LeBron's a better player, because frankly, I agree. But it's definitely not because of his defense. And if defense is the tie-breaker, then you have GOT to go with Kobe. 5 all-defensive team selections just don't lie.

Yeah ur right, my mistake. Lebron is the better player though, and I was trying to support being non biased other than stating the obvious.

chumdawg · 05-04-2006, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

You obviously didn't watch NBA Basketball last season if you think Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal.

2004-2005

Dirk

26.1 PPG
.459 FG%
.869 FT%
.399 3pt%
9.7 RPG
3.1 APG

Duncan

20.3 PPG
.496 FG%
.670 FT%
.333 3pt%
11.1 RPG
2.7 APG

Actually, you're right. Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal last year. He was BETTER.

And please, for the love of god, don't use the titles as your only support. If the number of titles a player has dictates how good he is, or determines if one player is better than another, then Horace Grant was a better player than Patrick Ewing. Robert Horry is as good as Michael Jordan. Mark Aguirre was a better player than Elgin Baylor. It's bullshit.

Nothing gives me more tired head than someone comparing one average stat line to another and declaring one player better. This isn't baseball. This isn't one-on-one.

TD's team won three more games than DN's team, with the supporting casts being similar. Some things you just can't settle in basketball with individual stats.

Now, this is not to say that TD is better than DN. I happen to prefer DN because I think TD would fold up like Pau Gasol if the calls went his way the way they go Dirk's way. But still, such a simplistic analysis gives me tired head.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-04-2006, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Nothing gives me more tired head than someone comparing one average stat line to another and declaring one player better. This isn't baseball. This isn't one-on-one.

TD's team won three more games than DN's team, with the supporting casts being similar. Some things you just can't settle in basketball with individual stats.

And nothing gives me more tired head than people who dismiss stats as if they're nothing. Points, rebounds, assists so on so forth. They're records of the players PRODUCTION. If one player has better stats than another, he's usually BETTER. There are exceptions to this of course, but that's exactly what they are, exceptions. And chum, no this isn't baseball, but in a very general sense, basketball is mostly one on one.

And for the record, the Spurs won 59 games last year to the Mavs' 58. That's one more game, not three. And, this is just my humble opinion, but I'd take Duncan's supporting cast over Dirk's any day.

Quote:

Now, this is not to say that TD is better than DN. I happen to prefer DN because I think TD would fold up like Pau Gasol if the calls went his way the way they go Dirk's way. But still, such a simplistic analysis gives me tired head.

Simplistic? Maybe. Meaningless? Hell no.

And chum, sue me for being so damn simplistic. Stats are quick, to the point, and easy to pull up. Perhaps I didn't feel like re-typing the same shit I'd already typed about how I believe the ability to score one-on-one is the most important aspect of a player's game, and thereby twisting the thread into an entirely different debate.

Simplistic is some moron saying "he has more championships" or "he makes his teammates better." Pulling up stats isn't simplistic. It's accurate.

dude1394 · 05-04-2006, 08:43 AM

Nothing gives me tireder head than seeing someone attack someones opinion without throwing diddly out there to refute it. Just to attack the thinking of the other person. The point isn't even debated, it's just an attack on the messenger.

Sort of like this post.

Five-ofan · 05-04-2006, 08:50 AM

Duncan is not close to dirk offensively(nor was he last year) and his defense isnt what it once was. He is still good at man 2 man post d and he is a good help defender because of the respect of the officials but his days as a great defender are behind him. I cant believe im gonna say this but his defense is not noticeably better than dirks anymore. He is still slightly better i would say because of his indvidual post D and he is a better help defender but dirk is a better overall man defender. I never thought i would say that with a straight face.

Male30Dan · 05-04-2006, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Duncan is not close to dirk offensively(nor was he last year) and his defense isnt what it once was. He is still good at man 2 man post d and he is a good help defender because of the respect of the officials but his days as a great defender are behind him. I cant believe im gonna say this but his defense is not noticeably better than dirks anymore. He is still slightly better i would say because of his indvidual post D and he is a better help defender but dirk is a better overall man defender. I never thought i would say that with a straight face.

And you shouldn't have!

Five-ofan · 05-04-2006, 09:04 AM

Duncan simply cant guard any pfs with any kind of game out to 15-17 feet. I dont mean that he occassionally gets beat. I mean he looks like rookie dirk in that situation. I do think it is largely do to his feet BUT the fact remains that his man d has been awful this year anywhere other thant he post. It is being put into the light more in the playoffs with SAR eating him up but this has been going on all year.

jleefilled · 05-04-2006, 09:18 AM

Anyone think Vince Carter deserves some consideration? I haven't really watched his games, but he seems to be tearing it up lately.

WayOutWest · 05-04-2006, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

And nothing gives me more tired head than people who dismiss stats as if they're nothing. Points, rebounds, assists so on so forth. They're records of the players PRODUCTION. If one player has better stats than another, he's usually BETTER. There are exceptions to this of course, but that's exactly what they are, exceptions. And chum, no this isn't baseball, but in a very general sense, basketball is mostly one on one.

I agree stats are important in backing up debates like this one. But they don't tell the entire story. While offensively Dirk is a more versitile player, TD is more efficient as the FG% points out. Like I said TD has been hurt all year and it's taken a toll on his game. TD is more effective because he plays an inside game, he draws more fouls, too bad his FT% sucks, and when he's double teamed he frees up his team mates. There is a reason teams would prefer to have an inside out game, it creates more opportunities for your team and causes more problems for the opposing team.

TD's defense is head and shoulders above Dirks. Defense is so overlooked in the ESPN generation of b-ball fans. What sets MJ apart from Magic and Bird is that he could dominate his opponent on both ends of the court, IMO that's what sets TD above Dirk, Webber and Amare in the past and present and what sets Kobe apart from LeBron, Wade and T-Mac. While KG can defend quite well, TD is the anchor of the Spurs defense, he very sound on both ends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

And for the record, the Spurs won 59 games last year to the Mavs' 58. That's one more game, not three. And, this is just my humble opinion, but I'd take Duncan's supporting cast over Dirk's any day.

Depends on what you prefer. Offensively Dirk's squad is way better, defensively TD has the edge. That's why IMO the Mavs best shot to beat the Spurs is THIS year because they are CLEARLY better on offense and the Spurs only have the EDGE in defense. In years past the Spurs would dominate on defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Simplistic? Maybe. Meaningless? Hell no.

And chum, sue me for being so damn simplistic. Stats are quick, to the point, and easy to pull up. Perhaps I didn't feel like re-typing the same shit I'd already typed about how I believe the ability to score one-on-one is the most important aspect of a player's game, and thereby twisting the thread into an entirely different debate.

Scoring one-on-one is where TD has the edge over Dirk, FG%. Give them an equal amount of shots and TD wins that battle. The FT line is another story. Again, TD has had a major drop off this year because of the injury.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Simplistic is some moron saying "he has more championships" or "he makes his teammates better." Pulling up stats isn't simplistic. It's accurate.

Calling someone a moron shows your level of expertise. Here is what posted:
"A healthy TD is a better player than Dirk, not as versitile offensively but just as effective and better on D. Not to mention the number of titles he's LED his teams too."

Since I had to connect the dots about "versitle" vs "effective" and that whole "D" thing, I'll just assume you need a simplistic breakdown of such concepts.

Pulling up stats is not the end all argument in these types of discussions. Plus where are block shots? opponets fg%? and other defensive stats?

Anyway, I'm not much of a fan playing the name game right now, (i.e. moron) so I'll just bypass your simplistic posts.

Five-ofan · 05-04-2006, 09:21 AM

He is right there with lebron as to who has been the second best player in the playoffs and when he wants to be he is amazing but generally he is too much of a chucker to be the best player in the nba for long periods of time. He is the best dunker ever though.

Five-ofan · 05-04-2006, 09:25 AM

Duncan is not more effecient than dirk. Look at effective and true fg%s plus (and this is the most underrated part of dirks game) Dirk hardly ever turns the ball over. Plus you mention his ft% but then gloss over it as if it doesnt affect his effenciency. The Fts duncan shoots are possessions whether they count as fgas or not. Dirks 90% ft shooting vs Duncans high 60% shooting is a HUGE difference. Plus it takes away the option of fouling late in games. Dirk is without question the better offensive player.

orangedays · 05-04-2006, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WayOutWest

While offensively Dirk is a more versitile player, TD is more efficient as the FG% points out.

This may have been true last year, but only barely. FG% doesn't tell the whole story either. TD's eFG% last year was 49.8% while Dirk's was 49.0%.

This year? Dirk's eFG% was 51.5% to Duncan's 48.5%.

True shooting %? Dirk's at 58.9%, Duncan at 52.3%.

This year, Dirk is by far the more efficient offensive player.

EDIT: Five-o you punk, now it looks like I'm riding your coattails!

WayOutWest · 05-04-2006, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Duncan simply cant guard any pfs with any kind of game out to 15-17 feet. I dont mean that he occassionally gets beat. I mean he looks like rookie dirk in that situation. I do think it is largely do to his feet BUT the fact remains that his man d has been awful this year anywhere other thant he post. It is being put into the light more in the playoffs with SAR eating him up but this has been going on all year.

That's cause your typical PF doesn't play outside of the paint, nor should he. That's what makes PF like Dirk and KG so special, for a time Webber as well. SAR is effective as well cause he faces up in the post and drives. But I completely agree that TD is a more traditional post defender but he's still better than Dirk in every aspect of defense when TD is healty. Right now his foot injury is really limiting everything he does.

It's quite possible that Dirk will dominate offensively to such a great extent that it will overshadow not only his own defense but the defense of his rivals ala Magic and Bird. Bird is a perfect example of what Dirk can become, McHale was clearly a more effective player on offense and an all-NBA defender but Bird stepped up in "hero" time and was a living legend.

WayOutWest · 05-04-2006, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Duncan is not more effecient than dirk. Look at effective and true fg%s plus (and this is the most underrated part of dirks game) Dirk hardly ever turns the ball over. Plus you mention his ft% but then gloss over it as if it doesnt affect his effenciency. The Fts duncan shoots are possessions whether they count as fgas or not. Dirks 90% ft shooting vs Duncans high 60% shooting is a HUGE difference. Plus it takes away the option of fouling late in games. Dirk is without question the better offensive player.

I know exactly what you're talking about. As a Laker fan I've had endless debates about Kobe vs Shaq in the Laker hay days. Shaq fg% was way better than Kobe's but the ft% balanced things out and even swung things in Kobe's favor so I really can't argue your point without selling out my "precious"...err...I mean Kobe.

jleefilled · 05-04-2006, 09:35 AM

Kevin Garnett is a perennial loser. If Dirk doesn't compare to Duncan unless Duncan is injured, Garnett doesn't compare to Dirk unless Dirk is on crutches.

WayOutWest · 05-04-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

Kevin Garnett is a perennial loser. If Dirk doesn't compare to Duncan unless Duncan is injured, Garnett doesn't compare to Dirk unless Dirk is on crutches.

IMO, there is no difference between Dirk and KG when it comes to winning. How many rings do they have? How many finals have they been in? How many WC finals have they been in? How many times in the playoffs? Short sighted comment if you ask me.

Five-ofan · 05-04-2006, 09:53 AM

To be fair Orange I did already have the effective fg% part in there before i edited. I did add the true shooting after your post reminded me of it. As to pfs not playing on the perimeter for the majority of the nba now im gonna have to disagree. Nearly every pf in the nba has a game out to 15 feet. Just a few off the top of my head
Dirk
KG
Sheed
Bosh
Marion
Pau(sort of)
Brand
JO
Krstic(he is a pf)
Harrington
Murphy
SAR
West
AK
Jamison

There are some others as well but basically at least half the pfs in the nba have some kind of a 15 foot game. hell a large portion of duncans offense is 12-15 foot bank shots.

Five-ofan · 05-04-2006, 09:56 AM

KG has won 2 playoff series. Dirk has won 6. That is a difference. Not to mention that since dirk came of age the mavs have won at least 52 games every year. KG? Has missed the playoffs twice in a row.

orangedays · 05-04-2006, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

hell a large portion of duncans offense is 12-15 foot bank shots.

56% to be exact (that qualify as 'jumpers').

jleefilled · 05-04-2006, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WayOutWest

IMO, there is no difference between Dirk and KG when it comes to winning. How many rings do they have? How many finals have they been in? How many WC finals have they been in? How many times in the playoffs? Short sighted comment if you ask me.

Well, we obviously disagree in what the term "winning" means. Loosely, I'd say it means that you at the least would make the playoffs. Last time I checked, KG hasn't been doing that. But yes, my comment was obviously ridiculous. I don't really think Dirk need be on crutches for KG to be mentioned in the same breath -- though their respective teams would probably perform similarly.

WayOutWest · 05-04-2006, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

Well, we obviously disagree in what the term "winning" means. Loosely, I'd say it means that you at the least would make the playoffs. Last time I checked, KG hasn't been doing that. But yes, my comment was obviously ridiculous. I don't really think Dirk need be on crutches for KG to be mentioned in the same breath -- though their respective teams would probably perform similarly.

IMO winning = rings.

Honestly, who celebrates their team comming in 2nd-16th? I root for my team no matter what, although when the Lakers play the Clippers it does get confusing. I support my team(s) through thick and thin but at the end of the day it's all about the rings. So many great players didnt' or don't become icons or legends because they fall short of a title.

Five-ofan · 05-04-2006, 10:23 AM

Yes it does all boil down to winning a ring but obviously there are various levels below that. IE if the mavs were to lose in the finals winning 60 and going to the finals is alot different that not making the playoffs. That said the mavs will win their ring this year so this point will be mute. That said, do you still think that all pfs but KG and dirk play in the post? Dirk is without question the best pf in the nba.

WayOutWest · 05-04-2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Yes it does all boil down to winning a ring but obviously there are various levels below that. IE if the mavs were to lose in the finals winning 60 and going to the finals is alot different that not making the playoffs. That said the mavs will win their ring this year so this point will be mute. That said, do you still think that all pfs but KG and dirk play in the post? Dirk is without question the best pf in the nba.

They are not the only ones but the only one's of not. Horace Grant and the like can hit the open jumper but they're not at the level of KG and Dirk. Those two's outside game are their primary threat. I can live with all those PF's, even Rasheed, living on thier outside shooting, I cannot expect to win allowing Dirk and KG to do the same thing.

Five-ofan · 05-04-2006, 12:14 PM

My point was duncan cant guard ANY of those guys. Since you are a laker fan and I forgot him I should throw in Odom as well. The thing is even if they cant hit the jumper they can all get to the rim against duncan no matter how much space he gives them. Duncans mobility used to make him special because he could legitimately guard most 4s out to 15 feet(he could never really guard dirk or kg) but now he cant even guard the list of guys i mentioned above.

Usually Lurkin · 05-04-2006, 12:32 PM

Lebron over Kobe for me. Because EVERYTHING includes being a better teammate.

Dirk's very close.

Duncan is hurt and not playing up to how he should be. That makes him not the best player. To say: If he wasn't hurt . . . is like saying "If Kobe was a better teammate . . ."