Poll: Who is the best overall player in the NBA? - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Usually Lurkin · 05-04-2006, 12:32 PM

Lebron over Kobe for me. Because EVERYTHING includes being a better teammate.

Dirk's very close.

Duncan is hurt and not playing up to how he should be. That makes him not the best player. To say: If he wasn't hurt . . . is like saying "If Kobe was a better teammate . . ."

orangedays · 05-04-2006, 01:55 PM

Interesting, the heavy hitters are spread out pretty evenly between Kobe, LeBron, and Dirk.

sike · 05-04-2006, 01:56 PM

Kobe is the most complete and greatest player in this league.

look out from BronBron though

sike · 05-04-2006, 01:57 PM

who voted for Duncan?

Five-ofan · 05-04-2006, 03:37 PM

I voted dirk but i can easily see arguments for lebron and kobe.

spreedom · 05-04-2006, 03:45 PM

I can barely even see an argument for Dirk. He's by far my favorite player, but he isn't close to as good as Kobe.

Murphy3 · 05-04-2006, 04:11 PM

Really? He's not close to Kobe? Surely you've got to be kidding me, don't you? To say that one of the top 3-4 players in the league is not even close to one of the other top 3-4 players is more than just a bit odd, isn't it?

orangedays · 05-04-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

I can barely even see an argument for Dirk. He's by far my favorite player, but he isn't close to as good as Kobe.

Just curious, what makes you say that spreedom?

Five-ofan · 05-04-2006, 04:42 PM

Anyone that leads the league in PER on a team that wins 60 games without another all star at least has an argument because that in and of itself is an argument but I have no problem with someone saying Lebron or Kobe is the best.

spreedom · 05-04-2006, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Really? He's not close to Kobe? Surely you've got to be kidding me, don't you? To say that one of the top 3-4 players in the league is not even close to one of the other top 3-4 players is more than just a bit odd, isn't it?

I feel like Charles Barkley was the second best player during the Jordan Era but I wouldn't by any means say he was anywhere near the player Jordan was. Just because Dirk is without a doubt a top 5 in the NBA doesn't mean he's automatically in the same league as Kobe.

Here's what I do know. Dirk is a better rebounder and shotblocker than Kobe is. He probably turns the ball over a lot less. Don't forget that Kobe has to carry a much higher ballhandling load though.

However.. Kobe is also the most dominant scorer in the game since Jordan's second run. He usually draws the most difficult backcourt defensive assignment and plays pretty damn good defense. He's intense on both ends of the court, has very active hands on D, and is probably the best finisher around the basket in the league not named LeBron James. When Kobe's hot, he goes for 50+, whereas Dirk didn't seem to go for over 40 too often. It's true that Dirk probably doesn't score as much because he plays with guys named Stackhouse and Terry, but let's also remember that Kobe has done more with so little help than anybody else in the playoffs. His game reimaging has kept the Lakers one step ahead of the Suns in their playoff series has been a lot of fun to watch.

I think Kobe's the best player since Jordan, and if I had to pick between him and Dirk to make a one or two-year run, it's Kobe Bean all the way.

Murphy3 · 05-04-2006, 08:29 PM

Kobe is no Jordan. He's all of a few weeks of not playing selfish basketball. Until he proves that he's not a selfish bastard, any comparisons to Jordan need to stop.

And let's face it, Kobe has made to great/clutch shots. But, it's not like he's been that great throughout the playoffs. If Dirk were to put up the numbers that Kobe has put up so far in the playoffs, I'd say that he was not living up to expectations by any stretch of the imagination.

spreedom · 05-04-2006, 08:37 PM

Kobe's exceeding expectations in my eyes. Sure, all of the Nash haters here expected the Suns to get tested by the Lakers, but how many people really expected that the Lakers would outplay the Suns in nearly every game en route to a dominant position in the series?

Evilmav2 · 05-04-2006, 08:37 PM

I hate to say it, but this year the best overall player in the NBA has been the rapist...

Murphy3 · 05-04-2006, 08:42 PM

So, spreedom, you're giving all of the credit for the Lakers being up on the Suns to Kobe? Why?

Murphy3 · 05-04-2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilmav2

I hate to say it, but this year the best overall player in the NBA has been the rapist...

Well, if you want to isolate just what they do without measuring the impact that their play has on the rest of the team, then it probably is Kobe. But, if he hadn't been a selfish rapist the entire season, how many wins would the Lakers have? To me, that detracts from his numbers. Even with that, he still could have a slight edge. But, it definitely detracts from his game in my eyes.

But, I wouldn't say that Dirk was the best player in the league this year.

Evilmav2 · 05-04-2006, 08:51 PM

I hate Kobe, and am actually rooting against him in the Suns series, but goodness knows when we fans will ever see something like that 81 point game again (10 years? 20 years? 40 years?), and 35.4 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.5 apg, and 1.5 spg is a nasty, nasty statline for a man who led his team into the playoffs, and may be about to advance to the second round.

Again, I hate Kobe, and I sure as heck would love to be able to say that Dirk was the best player in the league this year (I would probably rank him second), but Kobe has made history this year with his ridiculous scoring performances (generally in winning efforts), and the shine of his superlative regular season performance has only been further buffed by the way that he and Phil have been lately laying the log on the Suns in the playoffs...

spreedom · 05-04-2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:

So, spreedom, you're giving all of the credit for the Lakers being up on the Suns to Kobe? Why?

Of course not. If that's how you interpreted what I said, fair enough. Fact remains he's been the best player in that entire series, and without him, the Suns would have won every game by thirty in a four-game sweep. I'm not giving him any credit he doesn't deserve.

Murphy3 · 05-04-2006, 09:49 PM

He might be the best player in the series, but his performances aren't comparable to many others in the playoffs in different series.

And yes, the Lakers would have been swept without Kobe. But, the Mavs might have been swept without Dirk. What's your point there? The Wizards probably would have been swept without Arenas. The Cavs probably would have been swept without LeBron. The Suns probably would have been swept without Nash... and on and on...

spreedom · 05-04-2006, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

He might be the best player in the series, but his performances aren't comparable to many others in the playoffs in different series.

And yes, the Lakers would have been swept without Kobe. But, the Mavs might have been swept without Dirk. What's your point there? The Wizards probably would have been swept without Arenas. The Cavs probably would have been swept without LeBron. The Suns probably would have been swept without Nash... and on and on...

Did you miss my point? I said Kobe's performance is what is keeping the Lakers in the series, helping them exceed expectations. What isn't clear about that?

Murphy3 · 05-04-2006, 10:52 PM

My point is that any number of star level players around the league could have stepped in and done just as good of a job as Kobe in this series or better. Kobe has only been 'pretty good' this series.

spreedom · 05-05-2006, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

My point is that any number of star level players around the league could have stepped in and done just as good of a job as Kobe in this series or better. Kobe has only been 'pretty good' this series.

I guess that's just your opinion. In my opinion, there are a number of players that could easily replace Dirk..

jleefilled · 05-05-2006, 12:41 AM

So um, anybody want to change their vote?

; )

Murphy3 · 05-05-2006, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

I guess that's just your opinion. In my opinion, there are a number of players that could easily replace Dirk..

Start naming them.

spreedom · 05-05-2006, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Start naming them.

You can just go ahead and let me know who all of these other players are that could be doing what Kobe's been doing so far in the playoffs.

jleefilled · 05-05-2006, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

I guess that's just your opinion. In my opinion, there are a number of players that could easily replace Dirk..

Wow, for someone who professes to having Dirk as their favorite player, you sure don't know much about the uniqueness of his abilities. "Let me enlighten you, cause your third-eye's on dim." (de la soul) There is no one, no one, in the association that puts Dirks' abilities into a 7-foot frame. No-body. For all of Reggie Miller's lunacy in his commentary, even he can see why Dirk is a superstar, he puts CONSTANT pressure on the defense. Name a seven-footer or even 6'11" dude who can put CONSTANT pressure on defenses whether it be jumpshots or taking it to the rim. Name one that could replace Dirk -- for the love of hyperbole -- easily.

spreedom · 05-05-2006, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

Wow, for someone who professes to having Dirk as their favorite player, you sure don't know much about the uniqueness of his abilities. "Let me enlighten you, cause your third-eye's on dim." (de la soul) There is no one, no one, in the association that puts Dirks' abilities into a 7-foot frame. No-body. For all of Reggie Miller's lunacy in his commentary, even he can see why Dirk is a superstar, he puts CONSTANT pressure on the defense. Name a seven-footer or even 6'11" dude who can put CONSTANT pressure on defenses whether it be jumpshots or taking it to the rim. Name one that could replace Dirk -- for the love of hyperbole -- easily.

You don't have to be exactly the same player to have similar production. There are 5 or 6 better scorers in the league and over 10 better rebounders. Get a guy that can score 25+ a game or a guy that can get double-digit rebounds with a reasonably refined offensive game and the Mavs will still win 55+ games and get that 4th seed.

Murphy3 · 05-05-2006, 01:03 AM

Considering that Kobe hasn't been all that spectacular so far in the playoffs, the line forms to the left.

I'd say that Dirk, LeBron, Gilbert Arenas, Dwayne Wade, a healthy TMac, Steve Nash and maybe a few others could step in and produce at the level that Kobe has so far in the playoffs.

And no, I'm not saying that they are as good as Kobe..just saying that they could have produced at the same level as what he's done so far in the playoffs. He hasn't been nearly at his best.

Murphy3 · 05-05-2006, 01:05 AM

There are 5 or 6 better scorers? Are you sure that there are 5 or 6 better scorers or are there 5 or 6 guys that scored more points this year. There's a huge difference. I don't believe that there are 5 or 6 better scorers for a minute in this league than Dirk.

jleefilled · 05-05-2006, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

You don't have to be exactly the same player to have similar production. There are 5 or 6 better scorers in the league and over 10 better rebounders. Get a guy that can score 25+ a game or a guy that can get double-digit rebounds with a reasonably refined offensive game and the Mavs will still win 55+ games and get that 4th seed.

Man, you're talking about one or two guys in the entire league that MIGHT be able to fulfill your criteria of 25+ and 10 boards a game. But, point taken. I do think if you replaced Dirk with perhaps a Garnett, the Mavs will still make the playoffs. However, when you said easily replace Dirk, I'm hoping you're talking about a team that is able to compete for a championship. I think the Mavs are built for Dirk's unique talents, and I don't think you can replace Dirk with anyone in the league and still make a Mav team that is as competitive.

Murphy3 · 05-05-2006, 01:14 AM

Yeah, but you wouldn't have a go to guy on the team in the clutch if Garnett were in a Mavs uniform. You'd still make the playoffs, but would anyone really like their title shot? No, I didn't think so.

jleefilled · 05-05-2006, 01:15 AM

Exactly.. sorry for the late edit.

chumdawg · 05-05-2006, 01:19 AM

I don't know about the regular season, but I haven't seen anything in the postseason that suggests that anyone else is even close to the level Dirk is playing at.

If Shaq had more games like tonight, he would be. But he doesn't, so he's not. Kobe and LeBron and Nash all have holes in their game when compared to Dirk.

spreedom · 05-05-2006, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I don't know about the regular season, but I haven't seen anything in the postseason that suggests that anyone else is even close to the level Dirk is playing at.

If Shaq had more games like tonight, he would be. But he doesn't, so he's not. Kobe and LeBron and Nash all have holes in their game when compared to Dirk.

Doesn't Dirk have a pretty big hole in his game on the defensive end?

chumdawg · 05-05-2006, 02:03 AM

I don't think so.

spreedom · 05-05-2006, 02:17 AM

I do.

Epitome22 · 05-05-2006, 05:13 AM

Tim Duncan.

Close Thread.

Arne · 05-05-2006, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epitome22

Tim Duncan.

Close Thread.

Oh yeah, you're right. And I really like your argumentation. Great work.

Concerning Dirk and Kobe this far in the playoffs:

Dirk's efficiency rating per 48 minutes (in a low scoring series): 35.52

Kobe's efficiency rating per 48 minutes (in a high scoring series): 26.73

Lamar Odom's efficiency rating per 48 minutes: 27.91

Tells its own tale.

George Gervin · 05-05-2006, 07:07 AM

The king of course.. glad that dude is in the eastern conference..

orangedays · 05-05-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

You don't have to be exactly the same player to have similar production. There are 5 or 6 better scorers in the league and over 10 better rebounders. Get a guy that can score 25+ a game or a guy that can get double-digit rebounds with a reasonably refined offensive game and the Mavs will still win 55+ games and get that 4th seed.

Is it really as simple as that? Perhaps we should talk about offensive efficiency instead of raw numbers? Would another player who put up 25 pts. be able to put it up in the same manner as Dirk without placing undue stress on the Mavericks' offensive schemes? Do you have any idea what kind of disgusting percentages Dirk is shooting from the floor? And don't just look at FG%, you have to take into consideration everything, FTs, three-pointers - then ask yourself this: Ceteris paribus, if we put Dirk in uniform v. most any other player in the league and gave them all the same number of minutes and shots - who would put the most points up?

Dirk.

Five-ofan · 05-05-2006, 08:47 AM

Kobe can be great defensively. in fact when he wants to be he is the best 2 guard in the league defensively BUT he takes HUGE stretches off on D. Jordan did the same thing. Dirk has progessed to the point that he is at least average throughout the game and can turn it up late much like kobe. Hes not quite the defender kobe is but the perception of dirk as the god awful defender he was his first two years is outdated.