Big Z vs Eric Dampier vs. Kurt Thomas

[jayC]

BigZ
PPG 15.3
RPG 8.1
APG 1.3
SPG .48
BPG 2.48
FG% .483
FT% .746
3P% .286
MPG 31.3

vs. Eric Dampier
PPG 12.3
RPG 12.0
APG .8
SPG .45
BPG 1.85
FG% .535
FT% .654
3P% .000
MPG 32.5

Kurt Thomas
2003-04
Statistics
PPG 11.1
RPG 8.30
APG 1.9
BPG:.75
EFF + 15.59


Big Z rebounds well, scores in the post and blocks shots everything you could ask from a big man.
Walker plus howard for BigZ

[EricaLubarsky]

Those numbers really make Dampier look dominant. If he plays with spirit, he could have those numbers every year.

[Jamisonite]

I dont want Damp.

Z is a MUCH BETTER option. All of these guys could be busts. But if Z busts we can just get rid of him. If Thomas or Damp bust we are stuck with them

[uberfan]

Here are a couple of alternatives to consider and a little cheaper than Big Z or Dampier if we can't get a better deal.

One at 20 minutes a game:

PPG 7.4
RPG 5.9
SPG .69
BPG 0.70
FG% .521
FT% .592
MPG 20.1

This one played 31.8 minutes last year.


PPG 10.7
RPG 8.5
SPG 1.19
FG% .505
FT% .673
MPG 31.8



And this one played 31.6 minutes last year

PBG 9.2
RPG 7.4
SPG 1.27
BPG 1.70
FG% .467
FT% .885

I know that #3 can be had easily. For salary comparisons, Option #1 cost us about $5mm a year, Option #2 would be about $9 mm and Option #3 about $10mm a year.
Just thought it would be interesting to consider some altenratives and what they would cost when considering Big Z or what we would consider a reasonable salry for Dampier.

[madape]

Career (average per 32.5 min)

Bradley -
PPG: 11.4
RPG: 8.8
APG: 0.9
SPG: 0.9
BPG: 3.6
FG%: 46%
FT%: 72%
3P%: 10%

Dampier -
PPG: 11.3
RPG: 9.1
APG: 1.3
SPG: 0.5
BPG: 2.0
FG%: 45%
FT%: 64%
3P%: 11%

Ilgauskas -
PPG: 16.5
RPG: 8.6
APG: 1.4
SPG: 0.6
BPG: 2.1
FG%: 47%
FT%: 76%
3P%: 13%

Thomas
PPG: 12.5
RPG: 8.4
APG: 1.4
SPG: 0.9
BPG: 0.9
FG%: 49%
FT%: 76%
3P%: 23%

[Poindexter Einstein]

Blocks dont tell whether these guys are good post defenders.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
Blocks dont tell whether these guys are good post defenders.

It doesnt tell how well they defend centers but it certainly tells what they are doing to the other team.

[endtroducing]

blocks are the most overrated defensive stat in regards to a center...to a forward, it's more meaningful...but for a center? big deal. they're ALL supposed to be shot blockers. theo ratliff led the league in blocks, but he's not a good defender...it's almost irrelevant.

[grndmstr_c]

Blocks are far from irrelevant. That's just dumb.

[mavsman55]

Originally posted by: endtroducing
blocks are the most overrated defensive stat in regards to a center...to a forward, it's more meaningful...but for a center? big deal. they're ALL supposed to be shot blockers. theo ratliff led the league in blocks, but he's not a good defender...it's almost irrelevant.

Well tell me then... what stat is more important than blocks for a center?

[endtroducing]

check the numbers. manute bol was the best shotblocker to ever play the game, yet he averaged just over 1 point per game and his team suffered. theo ratliff gave up points out of his asshole. 4 blocked shots in 48 minutes of play doesn't have much of an effect on the outcome, unless you have a purely dominant center that'll strike fear in the hearts of the other team.

[endtroducing]

Originally posted by: mavsman55

Well tell me then... what stat is more important than blocks for a center?

rebounds. points scored. assists.

blocked shots are a luxury...ben wallace, for example, is a good shot blocker, but his REBOUNDING effects the game much much more. 24 rebounds over 3 blocks? I'll take it.

[grndmstr_c]

theo ratliff gave up points out of his asshole.

I've seen you post this nonsense a couple times now, and really can't let it go anymore, because you have no clue what you're talking about. According to the stats on 82games.com the Hawks allowed 7.6 less points per 100 posessions in 02/03 with Ratliff on the floor than with him off the floor. In 03/04 they were 7.9 points better defensively with him on the floor. Portland was 5.8 points better defensively with Ratliff on the floor.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally posted by: madape
Career (average per 32.5 min)

Bradley -
PPG: 11.4
RPG: 8.8
APG: 0.9
SPG: 0.9
BPG: 3.6
FG%: 46%
FT%: 72%
3P%: 10%

Dampier -
PPG: 11.3
RPG: 9.1
APG: 1.3
SPG: 0.5
BPG: 2.0
FG%: 45%
FT%: 64%
3P%: 11%

Ilgauskas -
PPG: 16.5
RPG: 8.6
APG: 1.4
SPG: 0.6
BPG: 2.1
FG%: 47%
FT%: 76%
3P%: 13%

Thomas
PPG: 12.5
RPG: 8.4
APG: 1.4
SPG: 0.9
BPG: 0.9
FG%: 49%
FT%: 76%
3P%: 23%

Please. Gimme a break. If you're point is to try to say Damp is as bad as Bradley, that is ridiculous. I don't like when people give warped stats like that. I'm not saying Damp isn't going to be fool's gold, but please.

[grndmstr_c]

Please. Gimme a break. If you're point is to try to say Damp is as bad as Bradley, that is ridiculous. I don't like when people give warped stats like that. I'm not saying Damp isn't going to be fool's gold, but please.

The ape is a staunch Bradley supporter. His point is undoubtedly that Bradley is as good (or better) than Damp when you look at their entire careers. I'm inclined to agree with him.

And how are those warped stats?

[endtroducing]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

I've seen you post this nonsense a couple times now, and really can't let it go anymore, because you have no clue what you're talking about. According to the stats on 82games.com the Hawks allowed 7.6 less points per 100 posessions in 02/03 with Ratliff on the floor than with him off the floor. In 03/04 they were 7.9 points better defensively with him on the floor. Portland was 5.8 points better defensively with Ratliff on the floor.

there's FOUR OTHER GUYS on the floor too. both teams make big line-up changes. let me find his averages against other centers and forwards, and you'll see what I'm talking about...

[LRB]

Originally posted by: endtroducing

there's FOUR OTHER GUYS on the floor too. both teams make big line-up changes. let me find his averages against other centers and forwards, and you'll see what I'm talking about...

grndmstr_c is talking about the center's affect as a help defender. Of the 5 players on the floor the center has the primary responsibility to be a help defender for penetration into the lane area and to act as the last line of defense. Hist stats on the points allowed show a direct correlation to that responsibility. Perhaps before spouting your offal laden post with no valid substance you might want to do some research and include some useful and pertinent facts. Right about know you make Stephen A. Smith look knowledgeable and intelligent.

[grndmstr_c]

there's FOUR OTHER GUYS on the floor too. both teams make big line-up changes. let me find his averages against other centers and forwards, and you'll see what I'm talking about...

Ignore the obvious if you want. Fact remains, when he's in the lineup, his team improves defensively. As for the stats you wanted to look up, I did it for you. For the Hawks in 03/04 Ratliff's opponents put up a PER of 14.6 (15 is average). For Portland opposing centers put up a PER of 15.2. For the Hawks in 02/03 opposing centers put up a PER of 15.3. For comparison purposes, that means on average, centers matching up against Ratliff the last couple years have all been somewhere in between Jason Collier and Rasho Nesterovic in terms of their productivity. I'm sorry, but I don't see what you're talking about.

[endtroducing]

does it really even matter? i don't want him, he's a bum, he's not a valuable player, yet people overrate the guy...just like dampier. honestly, shawn bradley is just as good (if not better) than any of these guys people are throwing around.

I know how basketball is played, and I know how it works...playing in college will do that for you. shareef abdur-rahim is just as good as a defensive player as theo ratliff. don't overrate some bum (WHO CAN'T PLAY OFFENSE) like him.

[jayC]

How many games in the last 4 years has bradley been in the game in the last two minutes? Not many if you have solved the hole in the middle you will play a center in the clutch. Let alone 30 minute games how many games has bradley played 30 minutes a game. There is a reason that Nellie never plays bradley when it counts its because the dude is a stiff.

[grndmstr_c]

does it really even matter? i don't want him, he's a bum, he's not a valuable player, yet people overrate the guy...just like dampier. honestly, shawn bradley is just as good (if not better) than any of these guys people are throwing around.

I know how basketball is played, and I know how it works...playing in college will do that for you. shareef abdur-rahim is just as good as a defensive player as theo ratliff. don't overrate some bum (WHO CAN'T PLAY OFFENSE) like him.

Nice backtrack.[img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]

[Misfit Mav]

Originally posted by: uberfan
Here are a couple of alternatives to consider and a little cheaper than Big Z or Dampier if we can't get a better deal.

One at 20 minutes a game:

PPG 7.4
RPG 5.9
SPG .69
BPG 0.70
FG% .521
FT% .592
MPG 20.1

This one played 31.8 minutes last year.


PPG 10.7
RPG 8.5
SPG 1.19
FG% .505
FT% .673
MPG 31.8



And this one played 31.6 minutes last year

PBG 9.2
RPG 7.4
SPG 1.27
BPG 1.70
FG% .467
FT% .885

I know that #3 can be had easily. For salary comparisons, Option #1 cost us about $5mm a year, Option #2 would be about $9 mm and Option #3 about $10mm a year.
Just thought it would be interesting to consider some altenratives and what they would cost when considering Big Z or what we would consider a reasonable salry for Dampier.

Who are these guys that you're talking about? I'd guess by the stats that one of them is Stromile Swift. Another might be Brian Grant, but I wouldn't think you'd bring him up as he's unavailable now. Maybe one is Etan Thomas?

Edit: OK, got Mohammed and Joe Smith, but who's the third?

[Redbug]

has Bradley EVER player 32 minutes in a game for the Mavs????????....E-V-E-R???????.....

The problem with Bradley is he is so uncoordinated that the refs can't help but call fouls against him even if they are bogus calls....

If the game is really going up and down he gets winded after 4 minutes and starts getting even worse position...starts reaching....starts mishandling easy rebounds on both ends....

If you start him he'll have 2 fouls on him in the 1st 5-6 minutes....

against some teams Bradley can upset their offensive rhythmn....against physical/athletic teams like Portland & the Clipps they just go inside and bang, push him aside or jump into him and go to the line....

before he hurt his knee a year and a half ago he was making strides at showing more consistency and a tougher attitude....between the slow recovery....nellies doghouse....and the a-hole walker show....he slipped back....only show brief flashes of good play.....

Bradley's an OK backup good for maybe 2 or 3....6 minute stretches a game as long as you don't have a couple of wide shouldered 6' 10"/6' 11" rebounding machines waiting on the sidelines...ready to come in and bang/challenge Ben Wallace for every single board.......

[grndmstr_c]

Shawn Bradley, for his career, averages 3.2 fouls in 24.7 mpg. That is a far cry from 2 fouls in 5-6 minutes.

[uberfan]

Originally posted by: Misfit Mav

Who are these guys that you're talking about? I'd guess by the stats that one of them is Stromile Swift. Another might be Brian Grant, but I wouldn't think you'd bring him up as he's unavailable now. Maybe one is Etan Thomas?

Edit: OK, got Mohammed and Joe Smith, but who's the third?

First Option is Nazr Mohammed.
Second Option is Nazr+Bradley.
Third Option is Bradely+Laettner.

FG% and FT% is a weighted combination of their actual stats from last year. I am not saying Nazr is the ANSWER. What I am saying is that you can put together a good combination of mid-tier centers to provide adequate production at the center and still allow for development of Benga and Pavel.

For example, Bradley could play 15 minutes a game. Laettner and Nazr have been playing 20 minutes a game already. Doesn't take too much more for a combo-center to cover 48 minutes a game and get adequate or better production from the center position.

[Misfit Mav]

First Option is Nazr Mohammed.
Second Option is Nazr+Bradley.
Third Option is Bradely+Laettner.

FG% and FT% is a weighted combination of their actual stats from last year. I am not saying Nazr is the ANSWER. What I am saying is that you can put together a good combination of mid-tier centers to provide adequate production at the center and still allow for development of Benga and Pavel.

For example, Bradley could play 15 minutes a game. Laettner and Nazr have been playing 20 minutes a game already. Doesn't take too much more for a combo-center to cover 48 minutes a game and get adequate or better production from the center position.

Ah, very clever: trick stats. I think you make a good point. Laettner and Bradley don't look bad at all when you present the stats that way. I don't think it's a good long term answer, but if we had to go into the season starting L8 and bring Bradley off the bench, I wouldn't have too much of a problem.

Interestingly, Mohammed + Bradley has the EXACT same PPG and RPG as Joe Smith last year.

[Redbug]

Grand C....I'm not doubting your word/facts....I'm not a Bradley hater....just throwing out some general observations from what I thought I'd seen....maybe I'm way off here.....

I wonder if anybody knows if there is a database where I can find out a few things.....

I'd love to see how many games Shawn has started at center for the Mavs and in each of those game how long he stayed in the game and how many pts, rbds, blks, & fouls he had when he left.....

I'd love to know how many regulation 48 minute Mavs games....Shawn has played 32+ minutes.....24+ minutes.....

I'd love to see avg minutes per game started vs coming off the bench......fouls....etc.....

I did find 3 games this past season where Bradley played 24+ minutes:

24 @Pacers L
33 @Utah L
29 @Bulls W

[grndmstr_c]

Red, I wish I knew where to find those stats, too. NBA.com keeps the previous season's game-by-game stats, but last year he was so poorly utilized the stats are barely worth looking up. I seem to remember that during the 02/03 campaign, when Raef was injured and the Mavs were on the 14-0 run Shawn was regularly playing in excess of 30 mpg, though. You're not alone in overestimating how many fouls Shawn commits. My hunch is that it's because he always gets yanked for committing fouls and never makes it back out on the floor. Nellie's use of Shawn is really tailor made to create the impression that he's a foul machine when in fact he's far from it.

[jayC]

Bradley's best season as a mavs was 2002-2003.

[Some Guy]

Originally posted by: Redbug
against some teams Bradley can upset their offensive rhythmn....against physical/athletic teams like Portland & the Clipps they just go inside and bang, push him aside or jump into him and go to the line....

before he hurt his knee a year and a half ago he was making strides at showing more consistency and a tougher attitude....between the slow recovery....nellies doghouse....and the a-hole walker show....he slipped back....only show brief flashes of good play.....

Bradley's an OK backup good for maybe 2 or 3....6 minute stretches a game as long as you don't have a couple of wide shouldered 6' 10"/6' 11" rebounding machines waiting on the sidelines...ready to come in and bang/challenge Ben Wallace for every single board.......

I agree. Bradley is a good player against certain teams, but he is not the answer against every team. And he is specifically not the answer against the kind of teams Dallas has struggled against. They need someone else who can play against the physical power forwards and centers in the league.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally posted by: endtroducing
does it really even matter? i don't want him, he's a bum, he's not a valuable player, yet people overrate the guy...just like dampier. honestly, shawn bradley is just as good (if not better) than any of these guys people are throwing around.

I know how basketball is played, and I know how it works...playing in college will do that for you. shareef abdur-rahim is just as good as a defensive player as theo ratliff. don't overrate some bum (WHO CAN'T PLAY OFFENSE) like him.

You don't even get the point about Bradley do you? I don't think anyone will argue about the POTENTIAL Shaqwn Bradley could have to be a good center. The problem is he is unmotivated. These pro-Bradley posts are a joke. Everyone knows he's a spare and would get rid of him for a bag of potato chips. Tell me what he has ever done to earn his money? He decked Karl Malone, that's about it. In fact, I won't even reply anymore to anyone who tries to compare Shawn Bradley to anything other then a bag of yummy pringles.

[cheesestar]

although i'd rather have dampier it frightens me how little you know about shawn bradley.

if he recieved decent minutes he would be considered the best defensive player on the team

btw: pringles suck

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Well if you had actually watched him when he got minutes, you would know where I am coming from. Raef got minutes, Laettner got minutes, I thought both of them were a lot better then Bradley. I make bets on how many times Bradley will fall down on the court.

[cheesestar]

how is raef; an undersized three point shooting center better than bradley? laettner averaged 8 pts. 4 rebs. and .5 blks with dallas and that was a few years back. last year laett averaged 5.9 pts 4.8rebs and .6 blks in 20 minutes. bradley averaged 3.3 pts. 2.6 rebs and 1.12 in 11.7 minutes

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Yeah, you just kinda proved me right with trying to prove me wrong. Per minute is a stat that, although sometimes useful comparing players, doesn't mean squat here because Bradley can't even play 20 minutes a game because he just doesn't try half the time. If you don't know that, then you simply don't watch the Dallas Mavericks play baksetball.

[grndmstr_c]

Yeah, you just kinda proved me right with trying to prove me wrong. Per minute is a stat that, although sometimes useful comparing players, doesn't mean squat here because Bradley can't even play 20 minutes a game because he just doesn't try half the time. If you don't know that, then you simply don't watch the Dallas Mavericks play baksetball.

I'm not sure you watch the Mavs based on these quotes. Nellie's got something against Bradley and won't play him the minutes he deserves. When Bradley has gotten the minutes he's produced, and done so consistently.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Yeah, he is always in Nellie's doghouse because he can't play consistently in a season. I agree the 2002-2003 season in the first 25 games or so were his best. After that, he stank it up big time. The fact is for most of his career he has stunk it up.

[chumdawg]

Devin. it appears that you are another member of the great unwashed who forms opinions about Bradley based on how he physically appears to you at certain times. You see what looks gangly to you. You see what looks slow to you. You see what looks skinny, what looks uncoordinated, ungraceful. You make the conclusion that he isn't trying. It ain't near that simple.

Watch Bradley closely enough, for long enough, and you will see a guy that often plays with a lot of intensity. You will see a guy with an occasional nasty streak. You will see a guy who can impose his physical presence on the other team, and who knows how to do so without exerting a bunch of extra effort, pseudo-hustle.

I honestly believe that Nellie's problem is not with Bradley the player. Hell, I think he likes Bradley more than a lot of other people do. I think the problem is that he has felt for the last couple years that he didn't have the personnel to get it done playing straight-up basketball. He has felt that he HAD to trick things up, in order to cover for deficiencies in the makeup of the roster. And Bradley has simply been the odd man out of that equation.

I expect all that to change next year.

[slowmo]

I just had to jump in on the bradley bashing. He is a stiff that is on the floor as often as he is on his feet. He gets dunked on by guards and pushed around by almost anyone on the floor. Yes, he does alter some shots because it is hard to ignore a 7'6 giant in front of you. But, the guys that carry their yahonies take it to him and make him foul, get out of the way, so they can go over or under his beanpole ass. That being said, if he were on the market from another team would we be going after him right now? I bet Nellie and Cuban would be knocking the door down for him. What we really need is for someone (like Kareem Abdul Jabar) to get him on the floor and beat the daylights out of him and show him how to slam dunk within 5 feet of the basket. Someone also needs to get him in the weight room and work on his calfs and legs so he can get more than 2 inches off the floor. Man, if he could just jump 6"s off the floor he could get more shots blocked and also may get a few more rebounds. Sky hook needs to be his best weapon! Forget those soft, off the backboard shots he takes. Knock a few guys on their south side and dunk it! Let those elbows do the talking! They can be devastating! Maybe we should hire his wife to play in his spot. I bet she would show some heart. Then he would be embarassed enought to play hard. Then I would give him the respect. Until then he is a waste of space.

[grndmstr_c]

I pity the ignorant.