Postgame Mavs vs Thunder: Crappy team vs crappy team - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mac222b · 01-07-2011, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHT

Steve Kerr had a good point about this on the TNT broadcast. It kind of sends the wrong message to your rest of the team. It's like saying... don't get hurt or we'll trade your ass.

or you could flip it around and say "if someone goes down, we've got your back. reinforcements are coming." every one from the Owner to the GM on down is part of the team too.

if the team trainer hurt his back and had to retire you bring in another trainer.

dalger · 01-07-2011, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

or you could flip it around and say "if someone goes down, we've got your back. reinforcements are coming." every one from the Owner to the GM on down is part of the team too.

if the team trainer hurt his back and had to retire you bring in another trainer.

As much as everyone likes Caron and would be disappointed to see him go, it would be the easiest thing in the world to explain to the rest of the team why an injured Caron Butler with an expiring $10.8 million contract needs to be traded. Chemistry on and off the court is great and something any player enjoys, but even Dirk said that he's not in this to make friends. Instead, he wants to win a championship. I'm sure guys like Kidd, Jet and Marion think the same way. If they were presented with an idea to upgrade the team by trading Caron, I'm pretty sure they would support that idea.

j0Shi · 01-07-2011, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHT

Steve Kerr had a good point about this on the TNT broadcast. It kind of sends the wrong message to your rest of the team. It's like saying... don't get hurt or we'll trade your ass.

We don't necesarily need to use Carons expireing to add depth because we have our exceptions. This would require to get a look at the team with Roddy and Dirk in the lineup though and I doubt that this will happen early enough before the trade dealine. So its tricky to say the least. Carons contract is still a valueable asset to any trade and if you dodge this one you better be damn sure that Roddy can pick up some of the load. Otherwise you surely will have to go for the big fish if you want to have a shot this season.

As stated here I still believe Roddy will have an impact on the team and that Butler was going to be the 3rd (not 2nd) option behind Dirk and Roddy. Looking at the team this way, it may not be that difficult to add a replacement.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-07-2011, 06:53 AM

Mavs can't keep playing Kidd these kinda minutes in the regular season. They are just asking for him to break down at the end of the season if this keeps up.

sefant77 · 01-07-2011, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHT

Steve Kerr had a good point about this on the TNT broadcast. It kind of sends the wrong message to your rest of the team. It's like saying... don't get hurt or we'll trade your ass.

You prefer the message "Even if we just have a window of a few years left we prefer to win the title of best lockerroom".

He is done for the season, the Mavs can trade him now and are able to bring him back with the MLE next summer.

kg_veteran · 01-07-2011, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

He shot 56% and scored 19....I mean, definitely a few too many turnovers (4), but this was far from a bad performance.....

His defense was bad. He scored a few baskets in the 4th after the game was clearly in OKC's control, and that makes his shooting numbers look better, but he did not have a good game. He's just been playing so poorly lately that everyone's happy with below average.

Erika is right. The guy is as dependent on Dirk as anybody.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-07-2011, 08:23 AM

It's going to be tough to win games against a tough division rival with three of your best players out.

I agree with what dude said in the Roddy thread that Barea is being over-used. The worst part is that he isn't resting Kidd. Mavs need to find Kidd some help almost as badly as they need sf depth (if not more so). At least Terry has Roddy coming back in a few weeks to rest him. Kidd has no help on the horizon outside of a trade or Roddy's miraculous and unlikely transition into a pg.

rabbitproof · 01-07-2011, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

It's going to be tough to win games against a tough division rival with three of your best players out.

I agree with what dude said in the Roddy thread that Barea is being over-used. The worst part is that he isn't resting Kidd. Mavs need to find Kidd some help almost as badly as they need sf depth (if not more so). At least Terry has Roddy coming back in a few weeks to rest him. Kidd has no help on the horizon outside of a trade or Roddy's miraculous and unlikely transition into a pg.

Helllooooo Ramon Sessions/Booby Gibson!

JJB/Butler for Sessions/Jamison. Thanks.

thunderfan · 01-07-2011, 08:42 AM

Hey guys. Yeah, what the hell was Carlisle doing? Anyways..hope you guys get Dirk back. That's honestly a real tough matchup for Dallas against OKC without Dirk and Butler, mainly because of OKC's length. I mean you've got Jet, Marion, Stevenson,and Kidd as basically your only scoring options out there...all of which are easily outsized. It was apparent OKC's length bothered them in the 2nd half when they finally got around to playing D. Smart move putting KD on Jet in the 4th. Dirk is just huge. You take him away and everything changes.

dude1394 · 01-07-2011, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

It's going to be tough to win games against a tough division rival with three of your best players out.

I agree with what dude said in the Roddy thread that Barea is being over-used. The worst part is that he isn't resting Kidd. Mavs need to find Kidd some help almost as badly as they need sf depth (if not more so). At least Terry has Roddy coming back in a few weeks to rest him. Kidd has no help on the horizon outside of a trade or Roddy's miraculous and unlikely transition into a pg.

I should be clear...I do not think he's being over-used minutes wise, but that hes' being over-used when he is being told to be so offensive minded. when caron/dirk was in jkiddos minutes were fine. And jjjb was always in there with dirk who took pressure of off him to be so uber-aggressive..

I think JJB is an adequate backup pg if he has enough team around him and against certain slow-footed interior guys and a team who isn't just packing it in defenisvely he can be okay.. Neither was on display last night. If he can get back to hitting some 3s, he's a little better than adequate.

41mvp · 01-07-2011, 09:11 AM

We should win this game.
This is very sad,We can't play without Dirk.
I am crying...

b_o_r · 01-07-2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Kidd's struggles stem from the fact that nobody on the court draws a double team.

Kidd shot was struggling way before Dirk and Caron were injured.

Luc · 01-07-2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41mvp

We should win this game.
This is very sad,We can't play without Dirk.
I am crying...

Get a grip man!
If we win one game you think we are close to the larry o'brien trophy, if we lose one you consider suicide.
Sort your life out and do it fast because this can not continue. If you won't do it for yourself, do it for us.

Thank you.

dude1394 · 01-07-2011, 10:12 AM

If the mavs can stay close to 500 without dirk/caron that is fabulous...I don't know what else anyone would expect.

41mvp · 01-07-2011, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luc

Get a grip man!
If we win one game you think we are close to the larry o'brien trophy, if we lose one you consider suicide.
Sort your life out and do it fast because this can not continue. If you won't do it for yourself, do it for us.

Thank you.

interesting

you know me?

Underdog · 01-07-2011, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

If the mavs can stay close to 500 without dirk/caron that is fabulous...I don't know what else anyone would expect.

2-4 isn't exactly .500 - we've almost doubled our season losses in a span of 6 games...

LonghornDub · 01-07-2011, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

His defense was bad. He scored a few baskets in the 4th after the game was clearly in OKC's control, and that makes his shooting numbers look better, but he did not have a good game. He's just been playing so poorly lately that everyone's happy with below average.

Erika is right. The guy is as dependent on Dirk as anybody.

His defense has always been bad, and he almost always shoots better in the fourth. He had two made baskets, an FT, and a missed basket in the last 6 minutes of the game. So he was 7/13 for 14 points before that. Let's not act like he substantially padded his stats from an awful game to an okay one in garbage time. Those stats certainly aren't mindblowingly awesome, but that's not the kind of game that should fairly get an NBA player (short of maybe a superstar) called out.

Obviously the guy is dependent on Dirk, and obviously I wish he would play better and more consistently. I just think this was a strange game to post your remark. I wouldn't affirmatively praise him for his game, but it certainly wasn't "below average." 14-19 points on over 50% shooting is "below average" for Dirk, not Jason Terry (or any other Maverick).

dude1394 · 01-07-2011, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

2-4 isn't exactly .500 - we've almost doubled our season losses in a span of 6 games...

Agreed..but win last night and it would have been......What exactly are you expecting here without dirk/caron?

kg_veteran · 01-07-2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b_o_r

Kidd shot was struggling way before Dirk and Caron were injured.

Sure, but an EFG% of .479 with Dirk and .312 without says quite a bit.

kg_veteran · 01-07-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

His defense has always been bad, and he almost always shoots better in the fourth. He had two made baskets, an FT, and a missed basket in the last 6 minutes of the game. So he was 7/13 for 14 points before that. Let's not act like he substantially padded his stats from an awful game to an okay one in garbage time. Those stats certainly aren't mindblowingly awesome, but that's not the kind of game that should fairly get an NBA player (short of maybe a superstar) called out.

Obviously the guy is dependent on Dirk, and obviously I wish he would play better and more consistently. I just think this was a strange game to post your remark. I wouldn't affirmatively praise him for his game, but it certainly wasn't "below average." 14-19 points on over 50% shooting is "below average" for Dirk, not Jason Terry (or any other Maverick).

When teams put pressure on Terry and guard him with a tall, athletic wing player who is trying hard, he's pretty well worthless. OKC ratcheted up the pressure in the 3rd, and Terry couldn't do anything.

This team needs a second scorer. Relying on Terry to be anything more than a 6th man will be disastrous. He can't be trusted, and this whole "Mr. 4th Quarter" thing is just fool's gold. If he's consistently on the floor on the 4th quarter in the playoffs, this team is in trouble.

Underdog · 01-07-2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Agreed..but win last night and it would have been......What exactly are you expecting here without dirk/caron?

I wasn't expecting any miracles (6-0), but a near-acle (3-3 or better) would've been nice...

LonghornDub · 01-07-2011, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

This team needs a second scorer. Relying on Terry to be anything more than a 6th man will be disastrous. He can't be trusted, and this whole "Mr. 4th Quarter" thing is just fool's gold. If he's consistently on the floor on the 4th quarter in the playoffs, this team is in trouble.

Even if all that's true (which I seriously question, but let's assume you're right), this is an opinion rooted much more so in his previous games this year (and perhaps previous seasons and playoffs) than last night. You pointed out a particular area of difficulty he had during one stretch of the game, which I understand, but that doesn't mean he had a "below average" game or a game worthy of getting him called out, which was my only point in the first place.

Rhylan · 01-07-2011, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

You prefer the message "Even if we just have a window of a few years left we prefer to win the title of best lockerroom".

He is done for the season, the Mavs can trade him now and are able to bring him back with the MLE next summer.

Spot on x 1000. I thought exactly the same thing when Kerr said that. Trade Caron this year, and if you win it, get the guy a ring. He deserves one.

I like Caron as much or more as anybody, particularly in terms of intangibles and locker room stuff. But Dirk and Kidd aren't getting any younger.

Coming off the injury, Butler probably wouldn't get much more than the MLE from a contending team anyway, so if you want him back, give him the option. A team with cap room will probably gladly offer him $7-8M, but looking at it, only OKC would have both cap room and a good team next year. And who's to say they'd want each other.

Kidd Karma · 01-07-2011, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

2-4 isn't exactly .500 - we've almost doubled our season losses in a span of 6 games...

Minus your top player in all 6.

kg_veteran · 01-07-2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Even if all that's true (which I seriously question, but let's assume you're right), this is an opinion rooted much more so in his previous games this year (and perhaps previous seasons and playoffs) than last night. You pointed out a particular area of difficulty he had during one stretch of the game, which I understand, but that doesn't mean he had a "below average" game or a game worthy of getting him called out, which was my only point in the first place.

My initial statement was that the game reminded me of why Terry can't be trusted. The thing that reminded me of that was how completely ineffective Terry was against athletic defenders actually trying hard. People responded by telling me that he had a good game statistically, etc. All well and good, but I think I'm still right about Terry.

And yes, my opinion about Terry's effectiveness in the playoffs is rooted in his playoff performance over the past 3 years or so. Do you really think this team can win the West if Terry is finishing games in the playoffs?

kg_veteran · 01-07-2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhylan

Spot on x 1000. I thought exactly the same thing when Kerr said that. Trade Caron this year, and if you win it, get the guy a ring. He deserves one.

I like Caron as much or more as anybody, particularly in terms of intangibles and locker room stuff. But Dirk and Kidd aren't getting any younger.

Agreed.

LonghornDub · 01-07-2011, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

My initial statement was that the game reminded me of why Terry can't be trusted. The thing that reminded me of that was how completely ineffective Terry was against athletic defenders actually trying hard. People responded by telling me that he had a good game statistically, etc. All well and good, but I think I'm still right about Terry.

And yes, my opinion about Terry's effectiveness in the playoffs is rooted in his playoff performance over the past 3 years or so. Do you really think this team can win the West if Terry is finishing games in the playoffs?

I do but only if Dirk is healthy (obviously) and someone like Roddy is also a true 4th quarter scoring threat.

I understand what you're saying about the game now. I guess I misunderstood simply because you said the "game" reminded you if why Terry can't be trusted, rather than being more specific ("3rd quarter," etc.). And that was compounded by you referring to his game as "below average." But I get what you meant now.

kg_veteran · 01-07-2011, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I do but only if Dirk is healthy (obviously) and someone like Roddy is also a true 4th quarter scoring threat.

Okay, if Roddy and Terry are finishing games, who else is on the court? Chandler, Nowitzki, and Kidd? That's a pretty small lineup.

LonghornDub · 01-07-2011, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Okay, if Roddy and Terry are finishing games, who else is on the court? Chandler, Nowitzki, and Kidd? That's a pretty small lineup.

It is, and it's not ideal, but I think it's better than whatever alternative we have. If you put in Marion for Terry and make the lineup bigger and more traditional, I think we will seriously struggle to get half-court baskets in the final ~6 minutes of games. Ideally, we'd make as many situational substitutions in the final few minutes as we can.

It's sort of a moot point for me, though, because I don't think Roddy is going to be the kind of 4th quarter scorer we need. At least not this year. I think the lineup for closing playoff games will be Chandler-Nowitzki-Marion-Terry-Kidd. I don't think Chandler-Nowitzki-Marion-Roddy-Kidd is going to happen.

Usually Lurkin · 01-07-2011, 01:31 PM

On the "who closes playoff games" stuff, we need someone who is a guaranteed producer when defenses focus on Dirk (80% sure that's not Terry, maybe it's Roddy) or a coach who is savvy enough to sub in whoever will be scoring that day (90% sure that's not Carlisle).

kg_veteran · 01-07-2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

It is, and it's not ideal, but I think it's better than whatever alternative we have. If you put in Marion for Terry and make the lineup bigger and more traditional, I think we will seriously struggle to get half-court baskets in the final ~6 minutes of games. Ideally, we'd make as many situational substitutions in the final few minutes as we can.

It's sort of a moot point for me, though, because I don't think Roddy is going to be the kind of 4th quarter scorer we need. At least not this year. I think the lineup for closing playoff games will be Chandler-Nowitzki-Marion-Terry-Kidd. I don't think Chandler-Nowitzki-Marion-Roddy-Kidd is going to happen.

Marion for Terry at least allows you to guard the opposing team, and Roddy would hopefully be providing a more versatile and efficient version of what Terry provides.

I agree with you that Roddy probably won't be that guy this year, but Terry definitely isn't. I also agree that it's a moot point, because Carlisle is going to play Chandler/Nowitzki/Marion/Terry/Kidd down the stretch (particularly now that Butler's out and not even an option in place of Marion), but that doesn't mean that I think he's right.

LonghornDub · 01-07-2011, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Marion for Terry at least allows you to guard the opposing team, and Roddy would hopefully be providing a more versatile and efficient version of what Terry provides.

I agree with you that Roddy probably won't be that guy this year, but Terry definitely isn't. I also agree that it's a moot point, because Carlisle is going to play Chandler/Nowitzki/Marion/Terry/Kidd down the stretch (particularly now that Butler's out and not even an option in place of Marion), but that doesn't mean that I think he's right.

Where we depart is that I still think Terry can be one of the most lethal closers in the game when paired with Dirk. The problem I see is not that he's not suited for that role, but that we need another guy altogether. The two of them isn't enough.

Also, for whatever it's worth (and this is just my opinion), the Mavs' offense down the stretch in tight playoff games has been a considerably larger problem over the past 5-6 years than the Mavs' defense down the stretch.

dude1394 · 01-07-2011, 02:36 PM

This is one of the reasons that I like a SJackson signing so much, it would finally allow us to put a solid on the floor to replace jet if needed.

If no trade is made the ending lineup is going to be jet not roddy in the majority of cases. Again as with everything roddy it's "hope I'm wrong" there isn't a solid track record of x or y.

But if SJax is here then you have quite a quandry at the end of games. Jkiddo/Jet/Sjax/Dirk/Chandler or Jkiddo/Sjax/Marion/Dirk/Chandler.

A very good problem to have it would appear and SJax has enough all around skills to sit jet down, caron didn't for example.

rabbitproof · 01-07-2011, 03:40 PM

You put JET on any of the contenders (SA, LA, Boston, Miami, Orlando), he is not the 3rd best offensive player on any of those teams. He is not even the 4th best player on some of those teams.

JET is a nice piece but I would rather not rely on him even as a 6th man. He is basically DeShawn Stevenson without defense and some more midrange game IMO.

Kidd Karma · 01-07-2011, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

This is one of the reasons that I like a SJackson signing so much, it would finally allow us to put a solid on the floor to replace jet if needed.

If no trade is made the ending lineup is going to be jet not roddy in the majority of cases. Again as with everything roddy it's "hope I'm wrong" there isn't a solid track record of x or y.

But if SJax is here then you have quite a quandry at the end of games. Jkiddo/Jet/Sjax/Dirk/Chandler or Jkiddo/Sjax/Marion/Dirk/Chandler.

A very good problem to have it would appear and SJax has enough all around skills to sit jet down, caron didn't for example.

Caron didn't have 2 guard skills, at least enough of it. Jax has enough skills to play both spots, so we're a little bit more versatile on that note if we get Jax, over say a Martin.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2011, 07:29 PM

this was sent to me via twitter, it's the best version I've found so far with the Rick Roll video I mentioned that they showed during a timeout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS-ybbXcUHw

dude1394 · 01-07-2011, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Caron didn't have 2 guard skills, at least enough of it. Jax has enough skills to play both spots, so we're a little bit more versatile on that note if we get Jax, over say a Martin.

the question I would have to ask before getting him is could he stand to be sat down in the fourth for marion and/or jet? Especially marion when they really need a defender. Caron had finally come to grips with it and it was paying off really well.

Jax....I don't know. But I think you are right he has much more playmaking skills than caron did but he's not quite as big so he might get pushed around out there.