Mavs trade - Breaking news from ESPN 103.3

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

If you think that Terry isn't a point guard, then you aren't going to be too happy with Armstrong. They are both more than capable, but Armstrong is no more of a pure point than Terry.

IMO, Armstrong is more of a playmaker than Terry. Bottom line, however, is that he'll give you a solid vet who won't make mistakes and will work really hard on both ends.

[EricaLubarsky]

agreed.

[kappasigma]

harris can push a team yet, he defends like a point but runs the offense like a 2 guard. armstrong is good enough to be an excellcent backup point guard for the mavs. he's quick, an on ball defender, has court vision, can rebound & hit the three. he's also a veteran who's got about 3-4 years left in him and always plays with a lot of heart. this is a great move for the mavs.

[ddh33]

Great deal for the Mavs. I've always been a big fan of Armstrong, and getting him cost next to nothing.

I'm also confused. I'm not completely sure what this means for the future of the team. It may not mean anything, but it does signal some of a change from letting Harris learn on the fly.

[Fidel]

Yep great move. I always liked Armstrong too. And we gave up virtually nothing.

[#41]

Great move! I was really thinking about Darrell or so like Brevin Knight being the solution for our playmaking problems! And yes, I also love his way to play ball...

[dirno2000]

This is a shortsighted move. This team has mismanaged Harris to this point.

[StrikerV]

dirno... your so right... i mean... dan dickau was our future...he couldve been the next steve nash and we gave him up for a aging darrell armstrong? *sigh*

[madape]

Another thing to consider is that we've just added another expiring contract. This now puts us at about $11.5 in salary that comes off the books next year.

Kidd makes $14.7. Carter makes $12.6.

If we're to make a deal with a team trying to dump long term contracts, we're much better equipped.

[Mavdog]

Thanks to our owner for willing to take on additional salary of about $2.5M, just to have a deeper bench. In the west, the couple of games that an extra point might enable you to win make a difference.

IMHO this means little in regard to PT for Harris, or to Terry for that matter. We have better depth in case of an injury, as well as a vet who can not only come into a game in a pinch and run the team but also be a voice of experience off the court. Harris is being handled very well and given great mentors to help him.

besides, he's a Avery clone isn't he? I always have seen these two players with a lot of the same tools and style. It's like Armstrong belongs here...

[dirno2000]

Originally posted by: StrikerV
dirno... your so right... i mean... dan dickau was our future...he couldve been the next steve nash and we gave him up for a aging darrell armstrong? *sigh*

Sure we got him for nothing, but cutting Devin's minutes is shortsighted. He's going to struggle at times. Not only is he adjusting to the league, he's still learning how to play the point. That's generally not something that you learn from the bench. He gives us enough on defensive and in transition to put up with his struggles in the half court offense.

I heard Bob Ortegal talk about how Devin is at the point where he's looking at the bench every time he screws up. You can't play the game like that, but I don't blame him. It would be different if he screwed up, Nellie brought him to the bench, had Avery or Dell coach him and send him back in. When he comes out of a game, he never knows when or if he's going back in.

I was watching the Rockets game last night and Devin didn't play bad in the 1st quarter. Picked up a couple of cheap fouls, but he had three assists and two passes that lead to wide open shots that just weren't converted (one to Quis and one to Dirk). So after playing virtually the whole quarter, he gets about five minutes the rest of the game. That’s mismanaging a rookie point guard.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: dirno2000

Sure we got him for nothing, but cutting Devin's minutes is shortsighted. He's going to struggle at times. Not only is he adjusting to the league, he's still learning how to play the point. That's generally not something that you learn from the bench. He gives us enough on defensive and in transition to put up with his struggles in the half court offense.

I heard Bob Ortegal talk about how Devin is at the point where he's looking at the bench every time he screws up. You can't play the game like that, but I don't blame him. It would be different if he screwed up, Nellie brought him to the bench, had Avery or Dell coach him and send him back in. When he comes out of a game, he never knows when or if he's going back in.

I was watching the Rockets game last night and Devin didn't play bad in the 1st quarter. Picked up a couple of cheap fouls, but he had three assists and two passes that lead to wide open shots that just weren't converted (one to Quis and one to Dirk). So after playing virtually the whole quarter, he gets about five minutes the rest of the game. That’s mismanaging a rookie point guard.

Hariis came out at 5:12 of 1Q when he got his 2nd foul. He started the second half.

There is a balance being acheived of giving a rookie PG minutes while also winning games. Harris is coming along nicely.

[Bookit]

The Hornet's message board is filled with people who say that Armstrong never penetrates the lane and is strictly an outside shooter. And Armstrong's outside shooting is poor and his turnovers are high. This theme seems to be mentioned over and over so it is probabaly true. I wonder how Nellie will handle another turnover prone point guard?

[V2M]

This move to me could be for two reasons:

- Insurance policy for the playoffs (as Donnie mentioned in DMN today) in case Terry goes down
- A baby step towards acquiring Kidd (as Madape and couple others suggested)

Either way it looks like a good deal to me. I would like to see Terry start and Harris off the bench for at least 10-15 min/game.
Armstrong could be used for situational substitution until he's included in the Kidd deal.

[Dirkenstien]

Not a bad trade at all. It's quite unfortunate that it will cut into Harris' minutes, but if it can help us get some more W's then it'll be worth it come playoff time.

Also, I like how this move brought us closer to acquiring Kidd if that's the road chosen to travel in the future.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: dirno2000


Sure we got him for nothing, but cutting Devin's minutes is shortsighted. He's going to struggle at times. Not only is he adjusting to the league, he's still learning how to play the point. That's generally not something that you learn from the bench. He gives us enough on defensive and in transition to put up with his struggles in the half court offense.

I heard Bob Ortegal talk about how Devin is at the point where he's looking at the bench every time he screws up. You can't play the game like that, but I don't blame him. It would be different if he screwed up, Nellie brought him to the bench, had Avery or Dell coach him and send him back in. When he comes out of a game, he never knows when or if he's going back in.

I was watching the Rockets game last night and Devin didn't play bad in the 1st quarter. Picked up a couple of cheap fouls, but he had three assists and two passes that lead to wide open shots that just weren't converted (one to Quis and one to Dirk). So after playing virtually the whole quarter, he gets about five minutes the rest of the game. That’s mismanaging a rookie point guard.

1st of all the main goal of this year's team is to win a championship. Developing Harris as a PG is only a secondary goal and much lower in priority. When the two come in conflict, winning a championship should always take precedent. We can't afford to turn this into a rebuilding year just to help out Harris' career development.

2nd of all Harris can develop just fine coming off the bench and getting backup instead of starter minutes. In fact IMO the best way for Harris to develop is to give him a minimum number of backup minutes and force him to earn PT through his play. I'm all for having Nellie and AJ coach him when he is taken out. I also Nellie unfairly jerks players around and pulls them often when they are playing good only to make them sit most or all of the game. However Harris' play has clearly regressed from the start of the year and it looks as if he has hit a wall that he needs to learn to circumvent. The team can't afford to give him heavy minutes while he tries to play his way around that wall. Better to bring him off the bench with reduced minutes until he finds his way around the wall.

[dude1394]

Agreed. LRB... Sacrificing ANOTHER season of dirk like we did last year is unacceptable. Also if terry goes down, forget it, harris will destroy us. No offense to the rookie, he's got skills but he's not playing very well at all right now..

It would NOT take much to be out of the playoff race in the west with seattle, phoenix jumping up so strong, those are two teams that are not going to fade out. We will in all probability be playing for the 6th,7th or 8th seed this year. Having harris as our only point guard would put that in jeopardy.

[Usually Lurkin]

Of course good trade, and the team could stand a bit of a reduction in the Harris minutes. He'll still develop well.
I'm just a bit nervous that Nellie will have an excuse to put more guards on the floor at once now.

[grndmstr_c]

The Hornet's message board is filled with people who say that Armstrong never penetrates the lane and is strictly an outside shooter. And Armstrong's outside shooting is poor and his turnovers are high. This theme seems to be mentioned over and over so it is probabaly true. I wonder how Nellie will handle another turnover prone point guard?

The stats suggest that the NO fans are wrong about him being TO-prone. He averages 3.1 TO's per 48 minutes, which is a respectable number for a point guard (Nash averaged 3.7 per 48 last year, by comparison). We'll see how he takes to the system, if he can play with a defense/rebounding/pass first mentality (it will be better if he leaves the shooting to others more often than not), but there's not much reason that I can see to worry that he'll be especially turnover-prone, at least once he learns his teammates.

[dirk2003]

If we somehow make a trade around Terry and Armstrong for Kidd, I would be the happiest Mavs fan ever.

[dirno2000]

1st of all the main goal of this year's team is to win a championship. Developing Harris as a PG is only a secondary goal and much lower in priority. When the two come in conflict, winning a championship should always take precedent. We can't afford to turn this into a rebuilding year just to help out Harris' career development.

I think one of the disconnects here is that I don’t see this as a championship team until Harris starts playing at a high level. I felt that way coming into the season and I haven’t seen anything to change my mind to this point. Maybe that will change as Finley comes back and the season progresses.

Also, Harris isn’t Shaun Livingston. Like I said, he brings enough to the table to be able to contribute while he grows.

2nd of all Harris can develop just fine coming off the bench and getting backup instead of starter minutes.

He’s playing backup minutes now. What I don’t want to see is him playing third string minutes. Nash played third string pg in Phoenix (incidentally, his minutes were pretty close to Devin’s) and it took him a couple of years of regular playing time until he became the player that everyone thought he would. I just think you need on the job training at that position. This kid has all the tools, but like Nellie said, he doesn’t know what Nash knows. Well Nash didn’t learn what he knows on the bench.

I’m ok with his minutes, but he should know when they are coming so he can play instead of looking at the bench a couple every time he turns the ball over or misses a shot.

…and they shouldn’t be reduced in favor of Daryl Armstrong.

[Simon2]

Nellie's already talking about putting Armstrong in the starting lineup. What did I say? I can't believe I know Nellie this well. Tony Delk, here we go again. I give it 5 games. Poor Jason Terry. He must be pissed as hell. Why won't Nellie just start the guy. He already started in Atlanta?

[dude1394]

If nellie starts armstrong tonight then I completely agree...He is a stinking idiot.

[dirno2000]

Originally posted by: Mavdog
Hariis came out at 5:12 of 1Q when he got his 2nd foul. He started the second half.

I think you're getting the Rockets game and the Spurs game confused. Thursday, he played the 1st nine minutes of the game and didn't come out after comitting a foul. He then played the 1st seven minutes of the 3rd quarter...that's it.

[grndmstr_c]

Re: Armstrong starting, it's certainly not happening tonight, and as much as I'm optimistic he can help, I am not expecting him to outplay Terry, so until I see Nellie shaft JT out of the starting lineup for an inferior player who's not the franchise's future at point, I'm going to treat this as Nellie just talking. I guess we'll see, but the if you really knew Nellie all that well, you'd know that the words that come out of his mouth to the media can't be trusted.

Re: Harris, if there's any mismanagement that's been done with him I'd argue it was in the starting, not the benching. He's not playing well, he's hurting the team, and he's not showing any improvement. I see no problem with bringing him back a touch, and can even imagine it being a good thing for his development. And the fact of the matter is that this is a team with championship aspirations, whether or not Devin is playing at a high level. And while the chances of the Mavs winning a championship could only benefit from Devin playing well, I fail to say how it helps anything to play him when he's playing poorly and lose so many games that you limp into the playoffs as an 8th seed.

[dirno2000]

Re: Harris, if there's any mismanagement that's been done with him I'd argue it was in the starting, not the benching.

In retrospect, I'd agree with this but mismanagement is mismanagement. If Nellie didn’t trust the kid, he never should have started him. Devin played well against Sac on opening night…one night later he gets the quick hook against NO and the erratic playing time begins.

He's not playing well, he's hurting the team, and he's not showing any improvement. I see no problem with bringing him back a touch, and can even imagine it being a good thing for his development.

So you think sitting on the bench is better for his development than playing? No his +/- isn’t the best, but when the team struggles, Devin is the 1st player to get pulled. That’s not exactly helping his +/-. Even when he doesn’t play bad (ie) the Houston, game he gets token playing time and that’s it.

And the fact of the matter is that this is a team with championship aspirations, whether or not Devin is playing at a high level. And while the chances of the Mavs winning a championship could only benefit from Devin playing well, I fail to say how it helps anything to play him when he's playing poorly and lose so many games that you limp into the playoffs as an 8th seed.

So cutting Devin from 22 minutes to 10 is going to be the difference between the 8th and 4th seeds? We’ll just have to disagree on that one.

[FilthyFinMavs]

If in those 22 minutes Harris is bringing a bunch of nothing then I don't see how limiting him to lower minutes won't help this team. Don't limit his minutes for the hell of it though. Limit his minutes if Terry and DA are playing like this team needs them to play.

[grndmstr_c]

vSo you think sitting on the bench is better for his development than playing?

To some extent, yeah. I think it might. Sometimes you have to take a step back from what you're doing to see what's necessary in order to improve. That may very well be what Devin needs.

So cutting Devin from 22 minutes to 10 is going to be the difference between the 8th and 4th seeds?

If all those minutes went to JT and both continued at their current +/- pace we could expect an upswing of +3.35 points per game for the Mavs if my math is right - that could very well be the difference between a 4th seed and an 8th seed.

[dirno2000]

If all those minutes went to JT and both continued at their current +/- pace we could expect an upswing of +3.35 points per game for the Mavs if my math is right - that could very well be the difference between a 4th seed and an 8th seed.

That looks good when you type it, but in reality, those minutes are likely to go to Daryl Armstrong.

...and that's not even considering how you could be stunting his growth. Like I mentioned earlier, Steve Nash couldn't have had a better set of pg's to observe than Jason Kidd and Kevin Johnson. Still, his game didn't come together until he had a chance to play through his mistakes.

See Tony Parker for another example of a pg that was allowed to play through the rough patches and ended up paying dividends. In his rookie season, he averaged 9 points, on 42% shooting, 4 assists, 2 TO’s and 1 steal. When Devin plays over 22 minutes he’s averaging 12 points on 40% shooting, 4 assists, 2 TO and 3 steals in roughly the same amount of minutes…and those Spurs had championship aspirations.

If we wanted a highly efficient pg, we should have just paid Nash. We made the decision to go younger at the position (which I supported), but you can’t draft a kid a 5 and sit him…championship aspirations or not. You made the comment that he’s not getting better, can we get more than a month into the season before evaluating his improvement?

Once again, if this move takes minutes from Devin, it’s shortsighted.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

Donnie mentioned that this move was made for an insurance policy, citing the nightmare scenrio of Terry getting injured during the playoffs, and thus, we would have to depend on harris, daniels, and dickau for point guard production. I don't trust everything that the mavs management has to say, but to me, this sounds pretty trustworthy. Harris will probably see his role get diminished some, but I would agree that this will help him in the long run. What I like about this is it puts some more pressure on Harris to not take the playing time he does receive for granted. I want to see him play at the intelligent level I really feel he is capable of playing at. Also, Armstrong not only provides vet pg depth but he also can shoot the 3 fairly well. Coming to a tv near you, The Return of Small Ball, Part 23.

But you're right dirno, harris definitely needs to keep playing. Right now, I can't think of a pg that rotted on the bench and suddenly became successful in the NBA.

[grndmstr_c]

That looks good when you type it, but in reality, those minutes are likely to go to Daryl Armstrong.

Provided Armstrong plays well enough to justify keeping Devin on the bench, yeah. The jury's obviously going to be out on that for a bit, though. Still, you wanted to discount the importance of those minutes. I'm just trying to point out that they could in fact be very important. Just how important remains to be seen.

...and that's not even considering how you could be stunting his growth. Like I mentioned earlier, Steve Nash couldn't have had a better set of pg's to observe than Jason Kidd and Kevin Johnson. Still, his game didn't come together until he had a chance to play through his mistakes.

JT and Armstrong as a duo are not of the caliber of KJ and Kidd. Devin's going to get his shots to show his development. I'm sure Nellie still likes the kid. In the meantime, a temporary step back doesn't seem to me to be the kind of thing that's going to ruin his career.

See Tony Parker

See KJ. I believe EL recently posted his rookie season stats. Lots of sitting with forgettable stats for most of the season, then an increase in minutes and productivity late. I don't know what Devin's path to success will be, but there are precedents to go around on both sides of this debate.

You made the comment that he’s not getting better, can we get more than a month into the season before evaluating his improvement?

No. We can damn sure wait more than a month before declaring that he'll never improve, but that's not what I'm saying, and I think it's abundantly clear (and so does Nellie) that he's stuck right now, and I don't see anything wrong with making note of that.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

I stole this from Van Gogh at LMF. I think he has an interesting take on the trade.
---------
A little discussed issue may, IMO, have more to do with the acqusition of Armstrong than any trade possibilitues down the road. It also may mean that Devin Harris and DJ will have to wait until next year to get the minutes to develop that they need. If they even get them then.

With the new conference realignment the top 3 seeds are automatically taken by the winners of the new conferences. Leaving the remaining five teams to duke it our for the one remaining spot with home court advantage.

The unexpected rise of Seattle and to some extent Phoenix has made that competition even more difficult. Their success means that either Phoenix or Sac and either Seattle or Minn will be among the teams that do not win their conference who will be in the hunt for the four seed. Add to the mix an improved Clipper team, the Lakers, Denver, Portland, Utah and Memphis.

Also, with the standings as they are today, the Mavs seemingly great .667 winning percentage puts them no better than a tie for the fifth spot with Minnesota.

What this means is that every regular season game means even more than it has in the past if the goal is to get home court advantage. Which leaves little wiggle room to give minutes to rookies who need to develop.

With upcoming games against Detroit, Minnesota, Seattle and Houston in the next week or so the Mavs can ill afford to waste any opportunities to win games now. That realization, in part, probably had as much to do with the Armstrong acquisition as anything, IMO. And that mentality will probably not change even when the schedule gets easier.

So the rookies may have to take a backseat for a while. Unless they show something on the court that earns them their minutes. Much like Drew Henson.

[dirno2000]

Provided Armstrong plays well enough to justify keeping Devin on the bench, yeah. The jury's obviously going to be out on that for a bit, though. Still, you wanted to discount the importance of those minutes. I'm just trying to point out that they could in fact be very important. Just how important remains to be seen.

I didn’t discount the importance of those minutes, but obviously it’s not as simple as taking two plus minus’s, shifting the minutes and assuming that those numbers will have an exact effect on victory margin per game. Like I said earlier, Devin brings enough to the table that he’s not going to be a total liability. He’s not some high school kid that’s out of his league.

JT and Armstrong as a duo are not of the caliber of KJ and Kidd. Devin's going to get his shots to show his development. I'm sure Nellie still likes the kid. In the meantime, a temporary step back doesn't seem to me to be the kind of thing that's going to ruin his career.

Of course it won’t ruin his career, but his can slow his development and thus the development of the team. I believe that two things have a more direct correlation than you.

See KJ. I believe EL recently posted his rookie season stats. Lots of sitting with forgettable stats for most of the season, then an increase in minutes and productivity late. I don't know what Devin's path to success will be, but there are precedents to go around on both sides of this debate.

If we had Mark Price in his prime, I wouldn’t be as concerned about Devin’s development. SA’s situation more closely resembles ours in that they were trying to bridge the gap from an experience pg to a young guy that they had to get up to speed…all while trying to win.

Plus KJ played 20 mpg. Like I said, I’m fine with Devin’s minutes, but if they go down significantly, I have a problem.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

[dude1394]

With jason terry tonight we ran the ball better than we have in a month.

[Ninkobei]

Sigh. Comparing Harris with Henson is an awful idea.
First, Henson was NOT a 5th over all pick. Was he even drafted?
PG isn't as important as the QB position, you can win without a fantastic pg but without a decent qb there's no chance.
Henson has been out of football forever while basketball is still fresh in Harris' mind.
The coach has had at least some faith in Harris, while parcells has had zero in henson.

the list goes on and on but this isn't a drew henson thread ;d

[The Miles]

but without a decent qb there's no chance.

Dilfer

[Ninkobei]

Dilfer started 8 games, threw for 1500 yards 12 tds and 11 ints 59% completion. In the superbowl he threw for 153 yards and 1 td, 0 int. In his four playoff games he threw only one interception. Qualifies as decent to me ;o not great