The"Crap, it didn't happen..but it was awesome to think of" thread - Page 13 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

rabbitproof · 02-12-2012, 05:52 PM

Dwight and Deron might be the best PG and C the Mavericks ever have.

Yes, we've had Kidd and Nash but neither at their best. Nobody comes close to Dwight.

I also thought if we cleared everybody out (including DoJo, Roddy, etc), we could offer to very close to max (off a million or something, not 8-10 million) to both?

jthig32 · 02-12-2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Dwight and Deron might be the best PG and C the Mavericks ever have.

Yes, we've had Kidd and Nash but neither at their best. Nobody comes close to Dwight.

I also thought if we cleared everybody out (including DoJo, Roddy, etc), we could offer to very close to max (off a million or something, not 8-10 million) to both?

Yeah, we'd have something like 35Mil or so of space with only Dirk on the books.

rabbitproof · 02-12-2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Yeah, we'd have something like 35Mil or so of space with only Dirk on the books.

Cool, thanks for clarifying. In the Simmons & Stein podcast, Stein made it seem like even if they got everybody but Dirk off the books, Dwight and Deron would still have to take Bosh/Wade/LBJ type discounts (8-10M for the duration of the contract).

His misunderstanding may be why he favors NJN as their most likely destination.

jthig32 · 02-12-2012, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Cool, thanks for clarifying. In the Simmons & Stein podcast, Stein made it seem like even if they got everybody but Dirk off the books, Dwight and Deron would still have to take Bosh/Wade/LBJ type discounts (8-10M for the duration of the contract).

His misunderstanding may be why he favors NJN as their most likely destination.

Could be. I suppose it's also possible that the Mavs don't plan to clear the entire roster. Maybe they've decided that Roddy and Wright stay no matter what, which would make it more like ~33 Mil. Maybe those are the numbers being communicated to Stein.

But it's more likely that Stein just hears "around 30" which I guess is technically right but the difference between 30 and 35 is obviously huge when trying to sign guys.

Whatever the case, it has to make you feel good that Simmons is hearing from people that Williams wants to come here. If we can just make it to March 16th without Howard wearing a Net uniform, we can start having genuine hope that a home run off season could be waiting for us.

rabbitproof · 02-12-2012, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Could be. I suppose it's also possible that the Mavs don't plan to clear the entire roster. Maybe they've decided that Roddy and Wright stay no matter what, which would make it more like ~33 Mil. Maybe those are the numbers being communicated to Stein.

But it's more likely that Stein just hears "around 30" which I guess is technically right but the difference between 30 and 35 is obviously huge when trying to sign guys.

Whatever the case, it has to make you feel good that Simmons is hearing from people that Williams wants to come here. If we can just make it to March 16th without Howard wearing a Net uniform, we can start having genuine hope that a home run off season could be waiting for us.

Marion and Haywood have maintained or improved their value with this season's play but I suspect to move them out for pure cap relief may still require us to throw in a Roddy or Wright. That said, it may make sense about the Mavs' plan to keep Dirk plus a couple at/near-minimum guys. State tax savings may allow the Mavs to do so.

And yes, sir! I agree Simmons' proclaiming it's a done deal feels damn good. The signs are there (common agent, D-Will backstage during the Finals). Also, unlike Bosh, Deron hasn't said he doesn't want to return to Dallas.

Dwight is still a total variable but if Dallas can secure Deron, Dallas has to look damn appetizing comparatively speaking to whatever else is out there.

jthig32 · 02-12-2012, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Marion and Haywood have maintained or improved their value with this season's play but I suspect to move them out for pure cap relief may still require us to throw in a Roddy or Wright. That said, it may make sense about the Mavs' plan to keep Dirk plus a couple at/near-minimum guys. State tax savings may allow the Mavs to do so.

And yes, sir! I agree Simmons' proclaiming it's a done deal feels damn good. The signs are there (common agent, D-Will backstage during the Finals). Also, unlike Bosh, Deron hasn't said he doesn't want to return to Dallas.

Dwight is still a total variable but if Dallas can secure Deron, Dallas has to look damn appetizing comparatively speaking to whatever else is out there.

For the record, securing Deron without Dwight is a home run in my book, and that's the scenario I can start to see materializing if Dwight is not a Net after the trade deadline.

Getting both is still a complete fantasy scenario to me. It's fun to think about and not impossible, but so out there that I won't believe it until it actually happens.

rabbitproof · 02-12-2012, 08:24 PM

Perhaps the Miami thing (as well as the Pau and Tyson trades) has deluded me but a home run has to smell of stinking almost robbery like success now, not just solid and smart.

Dammit, we deserve them both. We are the Mavericks.

jthig32 · 02-12-2012, 08:30 PM

Adding Deron Williams and another small piece or two to this roster (subtracting Jet, probably) gives you a ridiculously good team for the next year, probably two.

3D is more about years three and four. In fact, if you have to clear the entire roster, you can make the case that Deron by himself is better to compete next season.

I'll still absolutely take 3D, if given the chance, but I'll be absolutely elated if it's "just" Deron that we sign. People shouldn't lose sight of how huge it would be to add Deron freaking Williams to this roster.

mavs777 · 02-13-2012, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Adding Deron Williams and another small piece or two to this roster (subtracting Jet, probably) gives you a ridiculously good team for the next year, probably two.

3D is more about years three and four. In fact, if you have to clear the entire roster, you can make the case that Deron by himself is better to compete next season.

I'll still absolutely take 3D, if given the chance, but I'll be absolutely elated if it's "just" Deron that we sign. People shouldn't lose sight of how huge it would be to add Deron freaking Williams to this roster.

Let's say you amnesty Haywood and sign Deron for max how much money is left over for mavs?

rabbitproof · 02-13-2012, 02:16 AM

No doubt, turning LO/JET/Kidd cap into Deron Williams is a win.

However, to me, home run means getting everything.

jthig32 · 02-13-2012, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Let's say you amnesty Haywood and sign Deron for max how much money is left over for mavs?

It'd be pretty straightforward to sign Williams without even amnestying Haywood at all. So if you went ahead an cut him as well you would have his full salary slot to spend on something else.

markus1234 · 02-14-2012, 08:04 AM

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/maver...fense-campaign

Quote:

Actually, Cuban won’t be satisfied unless Marion gets serious consideration as a Defensive Player of the Year candidate.

“It’s not a question if he’s first team,” Cuban said during his pregame stairmaster workout Monday evening. “The only question is, outside of the center position like a Dwight Howard, is he Defensive Player of the Year? I mean, it’s hard to overlook how Dwight Howard plays defensively, but beyond that, who’s better?

“Name one.”

While you’re thinking of an answer, consider the impact Marion made in the Mavericks’ 96-92 win over the Los Angeles Clippers, one of the league’s most explosive teams. And Marion’s 16 points on 7-of-14 shooting were an afterthought.

The 6-foot-7 Marion guarded three different positions during the game,

....It’s something else to do while chasing the league’s premier pick-and-roll initiator all over the court, even with the Mavs’ bigs doing a commendable job showing on those pick-and-rolls. And Marion occasionally takes turns against high-scoring power forwards, too.

oilfieldtrash · 02-14-2012, 11:37 AM

This team suffers down the stretch without Kidd. Point guard play is huge for this team. To me if we can get a top 3 PG (Deron) at 28 years old locked up long term that is huge for this team. Heck either D12 or DWill would be huge. Both is just a pipe dream IMO. I think you guys undervalue what a big deal getting either one would be. I mean just about every team in the league will be scrambling to get either one if they are available. If we happen to be one of the lucky ones than count your blessings.

markus1234 · 02-14-2012, 11:53 AM

If we get two of them...shut it down let's go home.

dude1394 · 02-14-2012, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

This team suffers down the stretch without Kidd. Point guard play is huge for this team. To me if we can get a top 3 PG (Deron) at 28 years old locked up long term that is huge for this team. Heck either D12 or DWill would be huge. Both is just a pipe dream IMO. I think you guys undervalue what a big deal getting either one would be. I mean just about every team in the league will be scrambling to get either one if they are available. If we happen to be one of the lucky ones than count your blessings.

I tend to agree. If you get em both you do it and don't look back. If you cannot pull off both then you go for Dwight, deron in that order IMO. He's just a beast.

But if the only thing that happens is you get deron..that ain't too shabby.

jthig32 · 02-14-2012, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

This team suffers down the stretch without Kidd. Point guard play is huge for this team. To me if we can get a top 3 PG (Deron) at 28 years old locked up long term that is huge for this team. Heck either D12 or DWill would be huge. Both is just a pipe dream IMO. I think you guys undervalue what a big deal getting either one would be. I mean just about every team in the league will be scrambling to get either one if they are available. If we happen to be one of the lucky ones than count your blessings.

I agree with this. I think people are losing sight of what a huge, huge thing it would be to add Deron Williams by himself to this team.

dude1394 · 02-14-2012, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I agree with this. I think people are losing sight of what a huge, huge thing it would be to add Deron Williams by himself to this team.

Yup..for all of the griping about jkiddo, and much is justified but just so knee jerky, there still isn't a championship starting point on this team besides him IMO, none..,dwest comes closest but not on the same plane. Watch jkiddo throw jet a pass before he's even out of the painted area for a 15 footer, it's just magical.

LonghornDub · 02-14-2012, 12:22 PM

The trade deadline is 30 days from today. If we make it through these 30 days and Dwight is still in Orlando, I'll start (prematurely) warming up the party-bus engine.

Let the countdown begin.

Underdog · 02-14-2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

This team suffers down the stretch without Kidd. Point guard play is huge for this team. To me if we can get a top 3 PG (Deron) at 28 years old locked up long term that is huge for this team. Heck either D12 or DWill would be huge. Both is just a pipe dream IMO. I think you guys undervalue what a big deal getting either one would be. I mean just about every team in the league will be scrambling to get either one if they are available. If we happen to be one of the lucky ones than count your blessings.

I was saying something similar earlier in this thread.

Obviously Dwight is the better of the two, but Deron seems like he'd be a better fit in our current system... He'd be plug-n-play, whereas you'd probably have to rebuild from the ground up if you only added Howard.

I'm not going to make any arguments against getting both guys, but there are definitely some advantages to getting only one guy, especially if that one guy is Deron Williams:

1) You don't have to trade or amnesty a very productive Shawn Marion.

2) If you're not getting Dwight, then you don't have to trade or amnesty Brendan Haywood, who -- despite what some people think -- is totally worth what he's getting paid in this league. Plus you could pick up the team option on Brandan Wright and lock up the center position for a mere $9.3mil (Mahinmi aside), which is about half of what you'd have to pay for Dwight Howard alone.

3) With the rest of that Dwight money, you could re-sign guys like Jason Terry, Vince Carter, Delonte West, Ian Mahinmi or go after any number of free agents on the market...

jthig32 · 02-14-2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I was saying something similar earlier in this thread.

Obviously Dwight is the better of the two, but Deron seems like he'd be a better fit in our current system... He'd be plug-n-play, whereas you'd probably have to rebuild from the ground up if you only added Howard.

I'm not going to make any arguments against getting both guys, but there are definitely some advantages to getting only one guy, especially if that one guy is Deron Williams:

1) You don't have to trade or amnesty a very productive Shawn Marion.

2) If you're not getting Dwight, then you don't have to trade or amnesty Brendan Haywood, who -- despite what some people think -- is totally worth what he's getting paid in this league. Plus you could pick up the team option on Brandan Wright and lock up the center position for a mere $9.3mil (Mahinmi aside), which is about half of what you'd have to pay for Dwight Howard alone.

3) With the rest of that Dwight money, you could re-sign guys like Jason Terry, Vince Carter, Delonte West, Ian Mahinmi or go after any number of free agents on the market...

I don't agree at all that you'd have to rebuild if you only signed Dwight. Deron obviously fits better but it wouldn't be that difficult at all to sign Dwight and tweak the roster accordingly.

mavs777 · 02-14-2012, 01:39 PM

We aren't getting Dwight without Deron anyways so its not even worth it to talk about it.

ReDirkulous Tyme · 02-14-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

We aren't getting Dwight without Deron anyways so its not even worth it to talk about it.

and what is your factual basis for this claim? I have heard that he'd prefer to play with D-Will, but i haven't heard him refusing to play with anyone else. Getting D12 by himself is definitely a legitimate possibility.

mavs777 · 02-14-2012, 02:38 PM

From the sounds of it almost all of Dwight's interest to come to Dallas is Deron, im sure he respects Cuban too but he will go to the biggest market possible if he isn't playing with deron

Underdog · 02-14-2012, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't agree at all that you'd have to rebuild if you only signed Dwight. Deron obviously fits better but it wouldn't be that difficult at all to sign Dwight and tweak the roster accordingly.

I was considering the fact that we currently have the center position pretty well covered but the PG position is about to be completely up in the air. If we add Deron, then we still have Haywood holding down the middle, but if we add Dwight, then we're still stuck with the problem of having to replace a rapidly-declining Jason Kidd. That's at least one more player that needs to be added with Dwight over Deron, and (like center) the point guard position is one that comes at a premium, which would limit our flexibility to build the rest of the roster.

Maybe "rebuilding from the ground up" is a bit hyperbolic, but I definitely think it will take more work to put a team around Dwight next season than it would around Deron.

jthig32 · 02-14-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I was considering the fact that we currently have the center position pretty well covered but the PG position is about to be completely up in the air. If we add Deron, then we still have Haywood holding down the middle, but if we add Dwight, then we're still stuck with the problem of having to replace a rapidly-declining Jason Kidd. That's at least one more player that needs to be added with Dwight over Deron, and (like center) the point guard position is one that comes at a premium, which also affects our flexibility to build the rest of our roster.

Maybe "rebuilding from the ground up" is a bit hyperbolic, but I definitely think it will take more work to put a team around Dwight next season than it would around Deron.

If you sign Dwight you can amnesty Haywood and use that slot to help you fill out the roster at the guard position. You can make a very, very strong case that Howard plus 8+Mil of cap room to go find a wing player is better than Deron + Haywood (and it's clearly better than Deron plus that cap room).

I agree that it's more work, but there's a significant difference in value between Dwight and Deron.

Underdog · 02-14-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

If you sign Dwight you can amnesty Haywood and use that slot to help you fill out the roster at the guard position. You can make a very, very strong case that Howard plus 8+Mil of cap room to go find a wing player is better than Deron + Haywood (and it's clearly better than Deron plus that cap room).

I agree that it's more work, but there's a significant difference in value between Dwight and Deron.

Yeah, but which available PG are you going to sign this summer with that $8+mil? Steve Nash? Andre Miller? Kirk Hinrich? Goran Dragic? Not much out there (although Jeremy "Asian Jesus" Lin will be on the market...)

And I 100% agree with you about the talent difference between Dwight and Deron - you're definitely getting more bang for the buck with Howard.

jthig32 · 02-14-2012, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, but which available PG are you going to sign this summer with that $8+mil? Steve Nash? Andre Miller? Kirk Hinrich? Goran Dragic? Not much out there (although Jeremy "Asian Jesus" Lin will be on the market...)

And I 100% agree with you about the talent difference between Dwight and Deron - you're definitely getting more bang for the buck with Howard.

Give me Nash/Dwight over Deron/Haywood for next season.

But you raise a good point. I definitely agree that it would be more work.

ReDirkulous Tyme · 02-14-2012, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, but which available PG are you going to sign this summer with that $8+mil? Steve Nash? Andre Miller? Kirk Hinrich? Goran Dragic? Not much out there (although Jeremy "Asian Jesus" Lin will be on the market...)

And I 100% agree with you about the talent difference between Dwight and Deron - you're definitely getting more bang for the buck with Howard.

Well of course you're getting the most bang for your buck with D12 over Deron. Dwight is the uncontested best player at his position, bar none, no exceptions, no questions, no disagreement. Deron is a top 3 PG in this league, but he is by no means the undisputed best player at his position. Therefore, it would seem apparent that D12 is the better value between the 2 players.

rabbitproof · 02-14-2012, 04:10 PM

Not sure I'm feeling the Deron is a better fit point. Dwight is Tyson Chandler gone berserk.

I think they both would awesome fits (you could mold the team easily around either).

ReDirkulous Tyme · 02-14-2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Not sure I'm feeling the Deron is a better fit point. Dwight is Tyson Chandler gone berserk.

I think they both would awesome fits (you could mold the team easily around either).

i may be wrong, but didn't we win a championship with Tyson? So Tyson on crack......i'll take it. Fact of the matter is, this year's team is FAR more talented offensively than last year's team. The only thing we slightly downgraded at was the Center position, if we picked up D12 and a quality PG, I don't see any reason we're not title favorites next year.

Underdog · 02-14-2012, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Not sure I'm feeling the Deron is a better fit point. Dwight is Tyson Chandler gone berserk.

I think they both would awesome fits (you could mold the team easily around either).

It's not so much that Deron is a better fit, but that he'd be a quicker fit.

Sure, Dwight would fit in like "Chandler gone berserk," except there will be no Jason Kidd to toss him lobs - that's the biggest sticking point with getting only Dwight...

Underdog · 02-14-2012, 05:18 PM

If we sign Dwight Howard this summer (assuming he isn't traded), then I think Deron Williams and the Mavs FO will do whatever it takes to make 3D happen. But I don't think the opposite is true - Dwight Howard controls this summer's free agency, so all major moves are going to be put on hold until he chooses his destination. In other words, he's not following anybody anywhere because he'll be the first to move.

Actually, I think we're likely to get Deron Williams if Dwight Howard goes anywhere except New Jersey, and I think we can get both guys if Dwight decides to sign with Dallas with the understanding that Deron would be following. Actually, I think that's the ONLY way we get Dwight, otherwise he's probably going to Jersey, since Dwight/Deron is a brighter future than Dwight/Dirk... But Dwight/Deron/Dirk obviously trumps either possibility, and playing for Carlisle/Cuban has to be more intriguing than playing for Avery/Russian Mafia Guy.

LonghornDub · 02-14-2012, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

and playing for Carlisle/Cuban has to be more intriguing than playing for Avery/Russian Mafia Guy.

mavs777 · 02-14-2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

It's not so much that Deron is a better fit, but that he'd be a quicker fit.

Sure, Dwight would fit in like "Chandler gone berserk," except there will be no Jason Kidd to toss him lobs - that's the biggest sticking point with getting only Dwight...

He's putting up 20/12/2 on 55% shooting with terrible PG play, his game is a lot more than just alley oops.

jthig32 · 02-14-2012, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

It's not so much that Deron is a better fit, but that he'd be a quicker fit.

Sure, Dwight would fit in like "Chandler gone berserk," except there will be no Jason Kidd to toss him lobs - that's the biggest sticking point with getting only Dwight...

There's nothing saying Kidd can't be here...

Kidd Karma · 02-14-2012, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

He's putting up 20/12/2 on 55% shooting with terrible PG play, his game is a lot more than just alley oops.

I think 2 summers ago, he worked out with Olajuwon to develop a post game. A lot of his game was getting deep into the paint, before the ball arrived. Now he'll get on the block and bully his way into the paint for a right hook/dunk. His game is still evolving, minus the college phase of his development, he must spend summers adding to his game, and he has done that.

Kidd Karma · 02-14-2012, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

There's nothing saying Kidd can't be here...

Nope, veteran minimum is pretty much what he'll get any where.

Rick41 · 02-14-2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Doesn't know anything about running a basketball team.

Kidd Karma · 02-14-2012, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick41

Doesn't know anything about running a basketball team.

Branding Brooklyn, as long as he stays out of the personnel side, they'll be fine. He's been working on the logo, uniforms, color schemes.

Underdog · 02-14-2012, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

He's putting up 20/12/2 on 55% shooting with terrible PG play, his game is a lot more than just alley oops.

I was talking about him in the "Chandler gone berserk" role - Ty didn't do much else other than catch lobs on offense here in Dallas...

And, yeah, he has beefy stats with bad PG play, but I'm talking about winning rings, not putting up numbers.