Bradley Beal

[Amarelooms]

That’s who we need. Do whatever takes to get him. Trade anyone except luka and give as many picks as necessary

[NeedlesKane]

He had a terrific game today. I won't argue that. Also is this the earliest in a season that two players have had 60 point games? I am thinking that it is. I wonder if it even comes close to what's happened with Curry and Beal.

[ChampsAgainShoon]

Originally Posted by Amarelooms

That’s who we need. Do whatever takes to get him. Trade anyone except luka and give as many picks as necessary

We still owe the Knicks at least 1 first rounder I'm sure others knows the details. Anyway we're not getting Beal unless we give up KP and even then I'm not sure.

[EricaLubarsky]

He’s good, but I don’t know what we’d have to offer. I assume they’d want 3-4 first round picks. Would they take 2025, 2027, and 2029?

Otherwise it’s just Doncic and I don’t see any Mavs fan saying yes

[ChampsAgainShoon]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

He’s good, but I don’t know what we’d have to offer. I assume they’d want 3-4 first round picks. Would they take 2025, 2027, and 2029?

Otherwise it’s just Doncic and I don’t see any Mavs fan saying yes

KP might get us at the table. Not even a thought of trading Luka for Bradley Beal he's had his chance to run a team and while he's good he can't do anything without help. You team him up with Luka not trade him for Luka. But I still don't know if I'd give up KP for Beal although KP does seem injury prone.

[Dallas41]

Man y'all trippin.

I like Beal for THJ, Richardson, Green and couple of 1st

But Mavs not trading KP for Beal and get stuck with Powell trying to protect the rim for Beal and Luka.

In fact that's a bad idea period because what would be the point of getting him if KP was out going.

That doesn't give you a better team.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by ChampsAgainShoon

KP might get us at the table. Not even a thought of trading Luka for Bradley Beal he's had his chance to run a team and while he's good he can't do anything without help. You team him up with Luka not trade him for Luka. But I still don't know if I'd give up KP for Beal although KP does seem injury prone.

If it’s KP and 2025 and 2027 then it would essentially be 2021, 2023, 2025, and 2027 for Beal

I’m not sure that’s a great deal or if Wiz would even want the ever-injured KP at the max

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by ChampsAgainShoon

KP might get us at the table. Not even a thought of trading Luka for Bradley Beal he's had his chance to run a team and while he's good he can't do anything without help. You team him up with Luka not trade him for Luka. But I still don't know if I'd give up KP for Beal although KP does seem injury prone.

If it’s KP and 2025 and 2027 then it would essentially be 2021, 2023, 2025, and 2027 for Beal

I’m not sure that’s a great deal or if Wiz would even want the ever-injured KP at the max

Is Doncic + Beal with Powell as our starting center and almost no picks for a decade worth it? Beal is a star but I worry we’d be stuck at mediocre like the Blazers. Two stars and never able to put it together.

[ChampsAgainShoon]

I'm not really for KP for Beal either, I'm just saying it's the only logical way Wizards agree to it. We're not giving them Luka, they don't want anyone else because they can get better offers elsewhere.


So basically we should move on and forget about Beal.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by ChampsAgainShoon

I'm not really for KP for Beal either, I'm just saying it's the only logical way Wizards agree to it. We're not giving them Luka, they don't want anyone else because they can get better offers elsewhere.


So basically we should move on and forget about Beal.

Unfortunately I'm inclined to agree. He's pretty much untouchable. They seem set on him as their franchise player. The only way it would happen is if Beal specifically wanted to come to Dallas and forced his way here.

[Thespiralgoeson]

FWIW, Beal has a player option next summer. Things aren't looking good in Washington, so if he actually wants to come to Dallas, we can get him. Hardly something we can bank on though. And no, I'm not suggesting we hoard our cap space until then.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

FWIW, Beal has a player option next summer. Things aren't looking good in Washington, so if he actually wants to come to Dallas, we can get him. Hardly something we can bank on though. And no, I'm not suggesting we hoard our cap space until then.

By then won't Doncic have his max contract?

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

By then won't Doncic have his max contract?

If Beal wants to be here, they can make it happen, either trading for Beal directly or freeing up space in other ways. But that's a huge if. I'm not holding my breath.

[ChampsAgainShoon]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If Beal wants to be here, they can make it happen, either trading for Beal directly or freeing up space in other ways. But that's a huge if. I'm not holding my breath.

I know that Luka is transcendent probably even more than Dirk but I've already spent a decade hoping stars will want to come here and have been disappointed every time. Not expecting anything to change. I'm a check in the mail kind of guy when it happens it happened until then nope.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by ChampsAgainShoon

I know that Luka is transcendent probably even more than Dirk but I've already spent a decade hoping stars will want to come here and have been disappointed every time. Not expecting anything to change. I'm a check in the mail kind of guy when it happens it happened until then nope.

The Mavs rarely had the room to add a free agent during Dirk’s prime... after Dirk’s prime, stars didn’t want to come and play with a player in decline...

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by ChampsAgainShoon

I know that Luka is transcendent probably even more than Dirk but I've already spent a decade hoping stars will want to come here and have been disappointed every time. Not expecting anything to change. I'm a check in the mail kind of guy when it happens it happened until then nope.

Like I said. Not holding my breath.

[EricaLubarsky]

Beal is the first player to score 40 points in consecutive losses since...

Beal did it in February of last season

[ChampsAgainShoon]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

The Mavs rarely had the room to add a free agent during Dirk’s prime... after Dirk’s prime, stars didn’t want to come and play with a player in decline...

Immediately after the Mavs won a championship no one said Dirk was past his prime. He had just taken over the playoffs. Yet, they had to settle for drugged up Odom and even that was a trade.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by ChampsAgainShoon

Immediately after the Mavs won a championship no one said Dirk was past his prime. He had just taken over the playoffs. Yet, they had to settle for drugged up Odom and even that was a trade.

Dirk turned 33 that June. If he wasn't "past" his prime, he was definitely at the end of it. To make matters worse, we didn't have cap space that summer, but the NEXT summer, when Dirk was 34.

And actually, Deron Williams did indeed sort of say that much. He said afterward that the reason he didn't sign with Dallas was because they didn't have a plan for how to stay competitive when Dirk was no longer an elite player. He said when he asked Donnie Nelson that exact question, Donnie basically told him to "trust our track record." Dirk's age was absolutely a major factor in the Mavs never attracting a marquee free agent.

[ChampsAgainShoon]

We also had two chances with Luka already. No one came. I don't remember any player demanding a trade to Dallas even when Dirk was in his 20's. Maybe this situation will be different but I'm not counting on it.

I really wasn't paying close attention to this free agency that just ended though like I'm sure some of you were I'm not sure if we had cap space. But I liked the trades. I've rarely had a problem with their trades.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by ChampsAgainShoon

We also had two chances with Luka already. No one came.

What are you talking about? You mean last year when Luka was coming off his rookie season and the Mavs had won 33 games? Or this past season when we only had the MLE?

I don't remember any player demanding a trade to Dallas even when Dirk was in his 20's. Maybe this situation will be different but I'm not counting on it.

The Mavs never had cap space when Dirk was in his 20s. Plus I don't really think you can compare the eras, because Dirk's 20s were pre-"player empowerment" and the culture regarding trades and free agency was completely different.

But I've already agreed to "not counting on it" numerous times, so I don't know what we're even debating about.

I really wasn't paying close attention to this free agency that just ended though like I'm sure some of you were I'm not sure if we had cap space. But I liked the trades. I've rarely had a problem with their trades.

This past free agency was one of the worst classes ever. The only thing that happened really was Gordon Hayward got one of the biggest overpays in NBA history, and everyone that was supposed to make up 2021's historically great free agency signed extensions with their current teams.

[Dallas41]

I was high on Beal at first but when you look at this team now defense is trending in the right direction and I'd hate to give up most of our wing defense in order to get Beal.

I don't want this team turning into the Wizzards defensively

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I was high on Beal at first but when you look at this team now defense is trending in the right direction and I'd hate to give up most of our wing defense in order to get Beal.

I don't want this team turning into the Wizzards defensively

It's unlikely, but IF the Mavs were to try to trade for Beal, they would almost certainly have to include KP. IF you could build a trade around KP where we still kept our defensive depth, would you do it? Because I would. Beal might not give you much on defense, but he's one of the best offensive players in the league- currently #1 in scoring.

If you could have Luka and Beal as your backcourt and surround them with athletic, versatile defenders and shooters, I think that's a title contender.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

If the Mavs can remain a top 5 defensive team, then I'm not really into giving up the farm for another star. Two stars and a top defense is good enough to compete.

And I'd LOVE to have Beal.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

two stars and a top defense is good enough to compete.

Generally I agree with the sentiment, but I simply don't trust Porzingis to stay healthy long enough to be a second "star" when we need him to.

And even if he is healthy, I don't know that he's good enough to be the second best player on a championship team. Third best player, sure. Luka might be comparable to Lebron, but KP is not in even in the same stratosphere as AD.

I'm thinking of the second-best players on all the title teams of the past decade or so. I think almost all of them are better than KP. AD, Kyrie, Steph (okay, KD era Warriors probably aren't fair), Klay, Wade, and the 2014 Spurs were so loaded that they probably had at least 2 or 3 guys better than KP... I guess you could say that KP is on the same level as Lowry, but that Raptors title team is sort of an asterisk with GSW's injuries.

It seems to me that only our beloved 2011 Mavs didn't have a second star that was significantly better than KP.

Now that stretch of last year before he got hurt where he was putting up 30 and 10 or whatever it was, yeah, I'll buy THAT guy as a #2 guy on a title team. But KP has yet to prove he can be that guy for a sustained period of time.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

But he won't have to be that 30 ppg guy if we are serious about defense.

I mean, obviously he has to stay healthy, but it seems like lots of players are getting hurt recently.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

But he won't have to be that 30 ppg guy if we are serious about defense.

I mean, obviously he has to stay healthy, but it seems like lots of players are getting hurt recently.

I mean, again, I'm trying to think of an example of a recent championship team whose 2nd best player wasn't significantly better than KP and I'm coming up blank- unless you count Lowry on the Raptors, which again I think is an asterisk title.

You reframed my original question. You said you wouldn't want to "give up the farm" for someone like Beal. My question was, if you could trade KP for Beal while keeping our defensive depth would you do it? Like, say, KP, THJ + picks or something like that? Maybe one of our young guys?

Because Beal is a better player than KP and it's not even close. Beal is probably a top 15 player. At least right now. I don't think KP is a top 35 player.

I was listening to Bill Simmons' podcast recently and the great Jackie MacMullan was relating a conversation she'd had a few years ago with Danny Ainge. The Celtics had recently traded or let go of one of their best defensive players, I forget who. But when MacMullan asked Ainge about it, he said something to the effect of, "yeah, it hurts. But I can always get another defensive player. The lights-out scorer though? Those are the guys that are incredibly hard to get and you have to hang onto."

I generally agree with that sentiment.

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I mean, again, I'm trying to think of an example of a recent championship team whose 2nd best player wasn't significantly better than KP and I'm coming up blank- unless you count Lowry on the Raptors, which again I think is an asterisk title.

You reframed my original question. You said you wouldn't want to "give up the farm" for someone like Beal. My question was, if you could trade KP for Beal while keeping our defensive depth would you do it? Like, say, KP, THJ + picks or something like that? Maybe one of our young guys?

Because Beal is a better player than KP and it's not even close. Beal is probably a top 15 player. At least right now. I don't think KP is a top 35 player.

I was listening to Bill Simmons' podcast recently and the great Jackie MacMullan was relating a conversation she'd had a few years ago with Danny Ainge. The Celtics had recently traded or let go of one of their best defensive players, I forget who. But when MacMullan asked Ainge about it, he said something to the effect of, "yeah, it hurts. But I can always get another defensive player. The lights-out scorer though? Those are the guys that are incredibly hard to get and you have to hang onto."

I generally agree with that sentiment.

I disagree

KP from New York was a top 35 player

KP in Dallas from the bubble is a top 20 player, I'm not sure how you could think other wise.

Dude was avg 30 points and 10 rebounds with 1 block in the bubble and then in the playoffs he looked fantastic.

I might be a homer but when you say he's not a top 35 players show me a lost of 30 players that you consider better than a healthy KP that we saw in the bubble.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Yeah, I don't really get the KP hate outside of injuries. He was easily a top 10 player in the bubble before getting hurt.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Yeah, I don't really get the KP hate outside of injuries. He was easily a top 10 player in the bubble before getting hurt.

Easily a top 10 player?

He was pretty good, but top 10 player is insane. You just have to look at the top ten to realize that he's not top 10.

LeBron
Davis
Giannis
Leonard
Lillard
Doncic
Jokic
Harden
Butler
Tatum

Top 20? Maybe. Top 30 is likely. Top 40? Logical.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Yeah, I don't really get the KP hate outside of injuries. He was easily a top 10 player in the bubble before getting hurt.

It's not "hate." It's an honest assessment based on several years in the NBA. He's a very good, not great player. He's 25, he's made one all star team and has missed, what, a third of his NBA games? I like the guy, but I don't think I'm "hating' by questioning his ability to be the second best player on a championship team. For what it's worth, it's not denigrating KP in any way. There's no shame in being a third option on a championship. Shawn Marion wasn't good enough to be a 2nd option on a championship team. Neither was Manu Ginobili, Chris Bosh, Robert Parish, Ray Allen or any number of other players that have amazing legacies.

And you're REALLY reaching by calling him "easily top 10." Top 20, MAYBE top 15. Can he make one all-nba team in his career? I don't think that's too much to ask if we're expected to believe he's the ideal 2nd option for Luka.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I disagree

KP from New York was a top 35 player

KP in Dallas from the bubble is a top 20 player, I'm not sure how you could think other wise.

Dude was avg 30 points and 10 rebounds with 1 block in the bubble and then in the playoffs he looked fantastic.

I might be a homer but when you say he's not a top 35 players show me a lost of 30 players that you consider better than a healthy KP that we saw in the bubble.

I clearly said earlier these exact words. "Now that stretch of last year before he got hurt where he was putting up 30 and 10 or whatever it was, yeah, I'll buy THAT guy as a #2 guy on a title team. But KP has yet to prove he can be that guy for a sustained period of time."

He has not demonstrated that ability to be that player consistently in his 5 years in the NBA. I 'm not sure how you could think otherwise.

I'm looking at his entire body of work. Not just cherry picking the best parts. Based on his entire body of work, no, he absolutely not in the top 35. For the record, his numbers for all of last season, not just from the month of February onward, were 20.5, 9.4 and 1.4 off of 427fg% and .352 3p%. Good, but hardly elite. And nowhere near good enough to be the 2nd best player on a title team. Yeah, he played great for a few months... and then he tore his knee. This seems to be a pattern with him, as it has been for most players as ridiculously tall as he is.

Look, I like KP a lot, and of course I'm rooting for him. I really, really hope he can stay healthy and be an elite player long-term like he was for that stretch last season. But he hasn't shown it yet, and 5 years in the league is a considerable amount of time not to be able to show that.

There's a reason the entire basketball watching world is constantly talking about how the Mavs could get a "3rd star." It's because the Mavs are not title contenders as is. Conversely, there's a reason you never heard that conversation about the Lakers. Because Lebron and AD were good enough to win a title with just some role players behind them. Luka might be that good, but I'm not being harsh by stating the simple fact that if you look at the second best players championship teams in recent history- and frankly all of NBA history- the majority of them have been quite a bit better than KP.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Eh, agree to disagree. There is a reason KP is called the unicorn, but it's ok, lots of Mavs fans have hated on him. Only think to really hate on though is the injuries. I'm not sure what you think a star player should have that he doesn't?

The poor fit was with Powell and Rick not using him correctly early on combined with coming back after missing significant time.

If you want to judge him based on being hurt, then that's fair. But talent-wise, maybe he isn't elite, but he is certainly just a half step below IMO. Certainly a second star for sure.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Eh, agree to disagree. There is a reason KP is called the unicorn, but it's ok, lots of Mavs fans have hated on him. Only think to really hate on though is the injuries. I'm not sure what you think a star player should have that he doesn't?

You throw in "the injuries" as an aside, like it's not a big deal. "Yeah he's awesome besides the injures." Like, the injuries are pretty damn important. Injuries are the reason a lot of championships don't get won. Yao Ming might have been MVP if not for the injuries. Ralph Sampson and Hakeem might have been dynasty together if not for the injuries... Injuries are important.

What I think a star player should have that he doesn't? I already said. How about making one all-nba team in his career. If you're not a top 15 player, then how much of a "star" are you? I think that's more than fair.

If you want to judge him based on being hurt, then that's fair. But talent-wise, maybe he isn't elite, but he is certainly just a half step below IMO. Certainly a second star for sure.

Again. I'm looking at NBA history. The second best players on title teams are usually better than KP. Usually they're hall of famers or close to it.

Let me put it this way, if KP were the level of star that you seem to be arguing that he is, then the Mavs would be title contenders right now with a healthy KP. Lebron and AD, Lebron and Kyrie, Lebron and Wade, Steph and Klay, MJ and Scottie, Shaq and Kobe, Bird and McHale... Go down the list. Star duos that win titles together- the 2nd star tends to be a perennial all-nba guy. KP isn't that. If he stays healthy can he be? Maybe? I don't know. But he has not demonstrated it yet. And frankly, 5 years in the NBA is a long time not to demonstrate it.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

First off, I said he was a top player in the bubble and that's not even really subjective. He was killing it.

If we keep playing good defense, and KP stays healthy, then yes, I do think we're contenders. We're at least a better than first round exit team, although the West is though so you never know.

I think it depends far more on guys like THJ and JRich than it does on KP. I guess we'll see how he comes back from this injury this time.

[Dallas41]

Just for the record we all know KP has some injuries early in his career.

But take a look at Anthony Davis 1st 5 years in the NBA he was injury prone as well.

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Davis is a career 24 PPG and 10 RPG

Just pointed that out because someone mentioned KP avg 20 PPG and 9 RPG not being elite Numbers but those numbers aren't that far off from Davis career numbers.

Davis is clearly better and recently he's stayed healthy but it's not out of the realm of possibility that KP just had bad luck early in his career and I believe the player we witnessed in the bubble is the KP the Mavs are going to get moving forward.

And to me that KP is a legit 2nd Star next to Luka and the Mavs don't need a 3rd star just another top of the line player.

As someone else stated he was called the unicorn for a reason and to me I think he's grown as a player since that name was given to him. We've seen on several occasions without Luka where KP has actually dominated games and had he stayed healthy in that Clippers playoff series i think a lot of Mavs fans would view him differently.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

First off, I said he was a top player in the bubble and that's not even really subjective. He was killing it.

Well what you actually said was that he was "easily top 10." I disagree with that, but I think we can all agree that he was really damn good.

If we keep playing good defense, and KP stays healthy, then yes, I do think we're contenders. We're at least a better than first round exit team, although the West is though so you never know.

I think it depends far more on guys like THJ and JRich than it does on KP. I guess we'll see how he comes back from this injury this time.

But that sort of illustrates my point. If KP was the caliber of star that I think you need for a 2nd option on a championship team, then it wouldn't much matter what guys like THJ and JRich did. They'd be title contenders regardless. Maybe we're just quibbling over what a "star" is, but we'll agree that there are different levels of stardom, right? Lebron and AD just won a title with a bunch of average role players. That's the type of star duo you need to win a championship typically. Again, 2nd best players on title teams are usually perennial all-nba guys and hall-of-famers.

There are exceptions, sure, but they are the exceptions. If KP is the 2nd best player, then you're looking at something a lot closer to the 2011 Mavs, 2003 Spurs, 1993 and 1994 Rockets- meaning "carry jobs" where one transcendently amazing player more or less carries the team on his back.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Just for the record we all know KP has some injuries early in his career.

But take a look at Anthony Davis 1st 5 years in the NBA he was injury prone as well.

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Davis is a career 24 PPG and 10 RPG

Just pointed that out because someone mentioned KP avg 20 PPG and 9 RPG not being elite Numbers but those numbers aren't that far off from Davis career numbers.

Dude, come on. You cannot be serious. AD is light years better than KP. It's not close. AD has been a top 5-7 player every year since he's been in the league. Offensively, maybe you could argue that KP is sort of in AD's league. But defensively, they're not even remotely comparable. AD is one of the best defensive big men the game has ever seen.

I'll grant you that AD is injury prone. Still not as injury prone as KP.

Davis is clearly better and recently he's stayed healthy but it's not out of the realm of possibility that KP just had bad luck early in his career and I believe the player we witnessed in the bubble is the KP the Mavs are going to get moving forward.

I really, really, really hope its just been bad luck, but I don't believe it is. The history of 7'3 guys and injuries is really, really bad.

And to me that KP is a legit 2nd Star next to Luka and the Mavs don't need a 3rd star just another top of the line player.

Could you please explain to me what the difference is between a "star" and a "top of the line player?" Could you give me an example of a player who would make these Mavs a title contender but isn't a "star?"

As someone else stated he was called the unicorn for a reason and to me I think he's grown as a player since that name was given to him. We've seen on several occasions without Luka where KP has actually dominated games and had he stayed healthy in that Clippers playoff series i think a lot of Mavs fans would view him differently.

He's called the Unicorn because Kevin Durant called him that and it stuck. It's a fun nick name. Let's not act like is a measure for any actual basketball greatness or accomplishments.

Look, I hope you guys are right. I really do. I'm obviously rooting hard for KP. But I have to see it first.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I really, really, really hope its just been bad luck, but I don't believe it is. The history of 7'3 guys and injuries is really, really bad.

Being 7'3" isn't the life threatening curse that many make it out to be. There have been 15 players 7'0" or taller who have played 1000 games plus an additional 15 players who were 6'11". Kareem was ONE INCH shorter than Porzingis and played 1500+ games

Guess how many players have been 6'0" and played 1000 or more games?

ZERO

There have only been 2 players under 6' who have played 1000 games. There have only been 15 players TOTAL who are 6'2" or shorter who have played 1000 games and I bet there have been THOUSANDS of them who have played in the NBA

There have only been 26 players that were 7'3" or taller to EVER play in the NBA so its not surprising that one of them hasn't played 1000 games

Plus there have only been 143 players in the history of the NBA who have played 1000 games. Its a difficult benchmark

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by MFFL

Being 7'3" isn't the life threatening curse that many make it out to be. There have been 15 players 7'0" or taller who have played 1000 games plus an additional 15 players who were 6'11". Kareem was ONE INCH shorter than Porzingis and played 1500+ games

Guess how many players have been 6'0" and played 1000 or more games?

ZERO

There have only been 2 players under 6' who have played 1000 games. There have only been 15 players TOTAL who are 6'2" or shorter who have played 1000 games and I bet there have been THOUSANDS of them who have played in the NBA

There have only been 26 players that were 7'3" or taller to EVER play in the NBA so its not surprising that one of them hasn't played 1000 games

Plus there have only been 143 players in the history of the NBA who have played 1000 games. Its a difficult benchmark

Who said anything about 1000 games???? You just pulled that out of thin air.