The Official "Knicks to the Lottery" Thread

[Hitman]

How awesome would it be for the Knicks to go to the lottery and the Suns wind up getting like Okafor or Pavel or someone like that?

That would be just too sweet.

The Dolans of Cablevision, Isiah Thomas and Stephon Marbury....perfect together.

[kg_veteran]

Well, other than the fact that we'd have to play against an even better Suns team, it'd be great.

The East keeps on getting worse, and the West keeps on getting better.

[Big Lo]

theres no guarantee on okafor nor pavel. but there guarantees on marbury and hardaway.

now tell me how the suns got better? or maybe i misunderstood your basketball i.Q..
14-21 now, well chk that record in another 35 games.

[dirno2000]

That pick won't be a premium pick. If the Knicks don't make the playoffs they'll be pretty close. They could get lucky like Houston although it's not likely.

Actually I hope they do get Pavel, he'll probably suck anyway. Okafor is a different story.

[Male30Dan]

I can understand why some of you would think this trade is a TERRIBLE trade for NY and a GREAT trade for Phoenix, but I must say, Phoenix gave away a great role/bench player AND arguably a top 3-5 point guard, (pretty damn hard to come by), for two PG failures, a has-been that MIGHT become 80% of what he once was, some possibilities, some money, and two picks... Sure the picks hurt, and this truly would have been a DAMN GOOD trade for NY were they not thrown in, but come on people... If a team with a terrible cap situation doesnt mind spending the extra dollars, dont knock them for doing it... Look at us for a second will ya... Were we not giving shit to get BETTER players that would hit us harder in the cap expense... Especially if we pay players like Nash and Walker...

All I am saying is they have a potent lineup... A lineup that I would be proud to be a fan of - FINALLY - in NY... Marbury running the show with Houston, Van Horn, Thomas - (both he and Van Horn might still get traded for different talent), and Mutombo - who is a center we are salivating over now fresh from his TEN block performance...

Simply said, they arent terrible, and a post regarding them lottery bound is ridiculous... They WILL make the playoffs this year... They are something like TWO games out of the 8th spot now... Come on everyone... THINK!!! Most of you hate Thomas and NY in general, which is causing all of this rubbish to get posted on this and other threads... But again, THINK!!!

[dirno2000]

I can understand why some of you would think this trade is a TERRIBLE trade for NY and a GREAT trade for Phoenix

Most of you hate Thomas and NY in general, which is causing all of this rubbish to get posted on this and other threads... But again, THINK!!!

This is the answer to your question.

[Male30Dan]

Unfortunately, I knew the answer prior to posting...

Many Pacer fans hated how things ended when he was there and despise him for his arrogant and conceited ways!!! They also view him as racist and hate him for that... If Thomas was with Phoenix and this trade was made, everyone that is posting Thomas-bashing comments now would be praising NY for gaining such a great amount of talent...

Simple hate for the city and the GM!

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: dirno2000
That pick won't be a premium pick.

You say this, but you don't know it. The Knicks could make the playoffs in the East, heck, they should, but if they don't it's a disastrous move. You can't give up the possibility of getting into the Top 3 on top of giving up a bunch of other stuff.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Big Lo
now tell me how the suns got better? or maybe i misunderstood your basketball i.Q.. 14-21 now, well chk that record in another 35 games.

Is this a little cheap shot at me?

Here is the Suns' roster at the end of the season:

White - Voskuhl
Stoudemire - Lampe
Marion - Cabarkapa
Johnson - Jacobsen
Eisley - Barbosa

That's 10 players under contract.

They're going to have two first round picks, with at least one being a high lottery pick.

They have a ton of cap room to pursue one or more free agents.

Everybody on the bench is young and talented or a tradeable piece (like Voskuhl).

I'll take a core of Stoudemire, Marion, two first round picks, and a premium free agent over the one they had.

The one they had wasn't going anywhere. This one might.

[Male30Dan]

So basically you would trade two first round picks for marbury??? Because a premium free agent is promised to NO ONE!!! Several teams can contest to that!

[kg_veteran]

Dan - The Knicks might make the playoffs this year. They probably make it without making the trade. But they're going to have a hell of a time getting past the first round. If making the first round of the Eastern Conference playoffs is your definition of success, then perhaps this is a good trade.

And their chances for advancement in the playoffs aren't going to get better with time.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
So basically you would trade two first round picks for marbury??? Because a premium free agent is promised to NO ONE!!! Several teams can contest to that!

You're right. A premium free agent isn't promised to anyone. But the opportunity to get one plus the young projects plus the two first round picks? Yeah, I'd do it when I knew Marbury probably wouldn't even get me to the playoffs every year in the West.

[Male30Dan]

KG, Honestly, with the talent in the East, the Knicks could make the NBA finals with their talent! Who really knows... Is NJ really that much better than NY???

KIDD VS. MARBURY I would say Kidd, but very close
KITTLES VS. HOUSTON I would say Houston, not very close
JEFFERSON VS. VAN HORN I would say Van Horn, but neither consistently impress
MARTIN VS. THOMAS I would say Martin, not very close
COLLINS VS. MUTOMBO I would say Mutombo, despite age, not very close

They have more talent than you give them credit for... They still have Frank Williams, Penny, and the rest of their roster, (Norris, Doleac, Sweetney, etc...)!

They have simply been underachieving due to an unhealthy roster... They likely WOULD have made the playoffs without this trade due to McDyess being 75 percent or so... But with it, they could REALISTICALY contend with several other teams in the East...

Most people just look at the record and at past performances and write them off, but they have talent...

I say they AT LEAST make it into the 2nd round of the playoffs... You can book that!

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

You're right. A premium free agent isn't promised to anyone. But the opportunity to get one plus the young projects plus the two first round picks? Yeah, I'd do it when I knew Marbury probably wouldn't even get me to the playoffs every year in the West.

Well that is just it... I am not bashing Phoenix in this trade, just simply trying to help those that are bashing NY to see the light... Phoenix also made a good trade... From their prespective, they knew they were unlikely to REALLY contend anytime soon, so they decided to prepare for the future when some of the West's elite teams will start to struggle again... If you are a Suns fan for the next 20 years, you have to be happy in general for this trade... It sucks now, but you have to know that it gives your team the potential to be REALLY good... But it also gives your team the potential to be lottery bound for many years... Several teams always seem to have a lottery pick... Why do you think that is??? They simply make bad picks, or the very good picks that they thought they had never pan out/get injured/whatever... All I am saying is this is not a bad trade for either team, but for now, which most teams want to play for, it is better for NY in my opinion... It might be better long term if the draft classes are weak or if Phoenix simply picks poor or if McDyess reinjures his knee or a thousand other possibilities like NY pulling off another trade like this one involving Van Horn and Thomas to some other team which will return draft picks and a couple of players...

No one knows the future, but what I do know is that NY didnt get screwed and neither did Phoenix, but both teams got what they wanted, future help for Phoenix that might or might not come and present help for NY which may or may not lead to big things!

[Max Power]

I think New York did better in the trade than Phoenix did but it is not a slam dunk in either direction. Phoenix basically gave up on their team (again) and reloaded for the future (again). New York got a premier player and reloaded with veterans for an immediate playoff run (again). Who won the trade is based on which outlook you agree with - I agree with contending NOW rather than taking a step back and hopefully contending later. But if you have a different viewpoint then more power to you.

[kg_veteran]

I say they AT LEAST make it into the 2nd round of the playoffs... You can book that!

I'll be happy to wager with you on that.

I think they're going to have an incredibly difficult time beating Indiana, Detroit, New Jersey or New Orleans.

Who won the trade is based on which outlook you agree with - I agree with contending NOW rather than taking a step back and hopefully contending later. But if you have a different viewpoint then more power to you.

Max, the false assumption I think you're making is that this trade makes New York a contender.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Max, the false assumption I think you're making is that this trade makes New York a contender.

In the East everyone is a contender. New York stabilized a position that has been a problem for years. And they gained Hardaway too.

In the East all you want is to get to the Finals. Then anything can happen. Would New Jersey have won last year if Duncan got hurt?

[kg_veteran]

Unless major injuries occur, the Knicks, IMO, don't have what it takes to beat Indiana, New Orleans, Detroit, or New Jersey. I don't think the East is quite as wide-open as everyone makes it out to be.

Getting into the playoffs, yes. Winning the conference, no.

[WayOutWest]

It's hard to fault either team for making the trade.

Two POTENTIAL negatives for NY:
1.)Draft Picks: They gave up 2 first round draft picks. This may or may not become a big deal, it all depends on where the Knicks end up, playoffs or lottery. Judging from the moves Isiah has made so far he's looking to get NY into the playoffs NOW with almost no hope of winning a title in the near future. No way this squad gets past the Hornets this year and no way they get past Detroit, Jersey or Indiana in the next 4 years. He seems to be following his predecessor but he has not choice because of contracts that are already in place which brings us to point 2....

2.)Salary/Contracts: They gave up two expiring contracts and a few small one's for this deal. That doesn't really hurt them for the next 3 years because the contracts they gave up were NOT going to get them under the cap next year anyway, all that those expiring contracts would have done is offer some potential luxury tax relief. Houstons terrible contract is the cap killer for the Knicks and Marbury's contract goes two years past it so they won't feel the pain for a while yet. In about 3-4 years is when they will get cap releif, at that point they can be a player in the FA market.

IMO this is a very good deal for the Knicks, they get a local kid who will help sell seats at the Garden and maybe even get the Knicks into the playoffs. Not sure how things are going to work out with KVH after the incident with Marbury and his mom in NJ.

The Suns realized they are not a contendor in the West with the current squad and are looking to make a play in the FA market next year and hopefully pick up some good draft picks. The Suns could potentially have 10-20 million tickets for the Kobe sweepstakes next summer.

[Male30Dan]

Well again, then you are wrong!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Seriously KG, Do you really think that Detroit, New Jersey, New Orleans, or Indiana are that superior, if at all, to the Knicks... I already showed you the Knicks versus the Nets, in which case NY matched up pretty damn good... Must I show you how they match up against each team... They are talented, and they are beginning to gain talent in the right positions...

By the way... You just let me know the amount you want to put on that wager and you have a bet... Indiana can implode within any series, (hell they may implode before the playoffs)... Detroit is a very hard team to judge... They look like they could be the hard nose great defensive team like they once had there, then they just collapse... And New Orleans hasnt proven anything to me yet... I say let em play, and we will see when its over!

[WayOutWest]

Originally posted by: Max Power
I agree with contending NOW rather than taking a step back and hopefully contending later.

I don't understand the "building for the future" mentality. So many things can happen in a SINGLE season, let alone over several, that it makes that route way too risky.

[Jamisonite]

what all of you are failing to realize is that this is just the beginning of a series of moves that NY is going to make. They still have 3 or 4 pgs and they still have plenty of tradeable talent.

[Male30Dan]

Actually some of us have already been preaching that within the 37 threads involving this trade!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

But its ok, no one listens to me!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[OutletPass]

I think it goes without saying that isiah was going to have to DO SOMETHING. Whether this is the ABSOLUTELY RIGHT something can only be determined down the road. There's just NO WAY that you can judge it tonight.

Take a Mavs trade as an example:

Had Etan Thomas or Courtney Alexander turned out to be big time players, we wouldn't have been so happy with the acquisition of Juwan. And if we hadn't turned Juwan into Raef And NVE and then into Walker and Jamison, we'd probably like it even less.

Are the Knicks a better team tonight ?
Probably so. Can that team win the East...I don't think so, but we'll just have to see.

Are the Suns a better team in the future.
Probably so...but we'll have to see. If it turns out that Lampe or Milos or either of the 2 draft picks turn out to be big time players; and/or the Suns can get a big FA like Kobe....that will make everyone look at this trade very differently.

So, rather than hammering each other on WHAT IT does tonight, let's sit back and watch.

After all, who would have thought that the Nash draft pick that we gave up would turn out to be the Matrix. That pick could have just as easily turned out to be another Uwe Blab or Jim Farmer. We know, in general, what this trade does for the knicks, but we just have no idea of what it will or won't do for the Suns.

Nice post by KG...and an excellent one by WOW.

Most of the writers have said that this was a very bold but very risky trade by Isiah, and I agree with that. The Suns may have gotten a pony or two at the bottom of all of this.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: WayOutWest

I don't understand the "building for the future" mentality. So many things can happen in a SINGLE season, let alone over several, that it makes that route way too risky.

I believe in the philosophy of George Allen and Al Davis - reload when you need to but compete NOW. Rookies are nice because they are full of potential but that just means that they haven't done anything yet.

[kg_veteran]

I think it goes without saying that isiah was going to have to DO SOMETHING. Whether this is the ABSOLUTELY RIGHT something can only be determined down the road. There's just NO WAY that you can judge it tonight.

Some party pooper you are. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

As you pointed out, we pretty much know what this does for the Knicks. I'll sit back and watch the rest of what Thomas does before the trading deadline; so far I've been unimpressed, and not because I dislike him (even though that's true) but because I think he's mortgaged the future of the franchise without even giving it the opportunity to win it all now.

[WayOutWest]

First off, DON'T LAUGH!!!!!!

Do the Suns have Kobe in their eyes? Stephon is not that old and I doubt the Suns going to find someone in the draft as good as him with NY's picks so why trade him for damaged goods, "potential" rookies and thrid string point guards? It almost seems like the Suns intent in this trade was to get under the cap, according to Aldrige, as much as 20 million under the cap. The Suns can now make a legitimate play for Kobe. They've got a young team that's built more to Kobe style of open court play. The Sun players can run and would thrive in an uptempo offense since they don't yet have a legit low post threat, Amare is getting there but not yet. Kobe would be "the man" with great supporting cast talent in Matrix, Amare and Johnson. Here's where it becomes a stretch or the closer depending on how you look at it. Suns coach Mike D'Antoni is Kobe's idol, he's the reason he wears number 8 and when Kobe says he wants to "be like Mike", he's NOT talking about Micheal Jordan, he's talking about Italian league legend Mikd D'Antoni (he said so in Sports Illustrated).

Hmmmmmm.....just some thoughts but kind of interesting if you ask me.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Some party pooper you are. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

As you pointed out, we pretty much know what this does for the Knicks. I'll sit back and watch the rest of what Thomas does before the trading deadline; so far I've been unimpressed, and not because I dislike him (even though that's true) but because I think he's mortgaged the future of the franchise without even giving it the opportunity to win it all now.

These two posts are pretty good summaries of the trade, IMO.

I just can't bring myself to defend Layden, but....he seemed to be making moves geared toward the longer-term. And Thomas has come in and totally mortgaged the future---and I'm talking 2-3 years down the road, not 5. Marbury is going to sell some tix in the short term, put some butts in the seat who'll come in from Brooklyn to see the hometown boy play. I even think he'll be enough to get them the 7-8th seed in the East. But no more.

And the "supporting" cast that the NYKs have for Marbury can easily crumble in the very near future, through retirement (Mutombo), free agency (Thomas), age (Houston is aging fast), injury (could be anybody--even Marbury), ...whatever. Thomas gave up any possible cap improvement, depth, and potential for Marbury, a gimp, and a project. That's it. Cut and dried. Thomas has one more trade bullet to fire with KVH, but he's given away a lot of chips. I'm not sure how good a deal he can make with KVH at this point.

Phoenix (like Jersey) saw that Marbury wasn't going to be enough to get them anywhere near the upper echelon of teams in the West, and so they capitalized him. They bought a LOT of potential in Lampe, Vujanic and the draft picks, and a lot of cap room with McDyess and Ward, and even some utility with Eisley.

You do have to wait and see how this trade pans out over time, but as far as I'm concerned, I like what Phoenix got out of it a LOT more than what the NYKs got.

[Shaq Attack2]

How on earth are the Knicks not happy with this trade? They got Stephon freaking Marbury who has at the very least 3 years left of killer basketball and probably more like 4-7 years (barring injury of course). This year I'd rank him like so:

1. Jason Kidd (30)
2. Baron Davis (24)
3. Sam Cassell (34)
4. Stephon Marbury (26, 27 next month)
5. Gary Payton (35)

He's certainly going to outlast Payton and Cassell, has a good chance of outlasting Kidd, and is a wash with Baron.

Hardaway is a good role player now (obviously his knee injuries have slowed him down, sadly), he still has a jump shot, and of course he can create for others with his excellent passing and court vision. He might only have 2 years left (possibly more depending on his conditioning), but it's certainly better than anything else the Knicks have.

The Suns are rebuilding at this point, and it's very likely that no one they get in the draft is going to be as good as Marbury has turned out to be for a few years, at least.

[MavKikiNYC]

NYKs ain't happy because Marbury, while an outstanding INDIVIDUAL talent, is a point guard (not a center) who creates best for himself, and who in Jersey was reviled by coaches and teammates alike.

IMO, Nash does a lot more for his team as a PG than Marbury does for his--and has for the last 3-4 years. Talent doesn't equal productivity, and productivity doesn't equal results.

NYKs are stuck with a freakishy talented individual player without much hope of going anywhere with this team, or of improving in the future.

[madape]

If mediocrity is the goal, the Knicks SCORED!

[Hitman]

The great point guards make their teammates better. They literally "create" chemistry. They know who to find and where to find them. They are encouragers and leaders.

Stephon Marbury does none of these things.

He is out for himself, and no one likes playing with him. You think Houston and Van Horn are going to like playing with this guy?

The Knicks should have kept Lampe, Vujanic, their two # 1 picks and McDyess's expiring contract, if the goal is to win a championship.

Of course, in NY that is not the goal.

[Big Boy Laroux]

the knicks would rather squeeze into the playoffs with the #7 or 8 seed than miss the playoffs so they can actually build for the future. isiah is perfect for the knicks. i hope he drives them into the ground.

[WayOutWest]

One thing I'd like to point out again is that the current expiring contracts would do nothing for the Knicks for the next 3 years. In 3 years is when cap killer Allen Houston's contract expires, nobody is going to trade for AH's contract in the meantime, at which point they can play the FA market.

[madape]

WoW has a point. The Knicks were destined to suck until 2006 even before the trade happened. However, now that they have jettisonned all their draft picks and developing talent, they have ensured their fans that they will suck until at least 2008. Way to go Zeke!

[OutletPass]

Sorry KG, I didn't intend to poop on the party or rain on the parade, I just thought that this particular trade couldn't really be evaluated very well for quite a while. You have to admit, it's not often that we see a trade with so many young guys and draft picks from one side. I'veactually enjoyed this thread a lot...they're have been a lot of good points made by a lot of people...it reminds me of days gone by on this board.

When I see trades like this...my first thought is that it's a "ticket sales " trade....and that's also my second and third thoughts tonight. I still don't think that you trade your way to a championship...I just don't. At least not if that trade is about the best player on your team. And to me, there's no question that Starbury is expected o be the best knick's player.

Just look back at recent NBA history and the dominant championship teams.

SA - both Drob and TD were drafted
Bulls - MJ was drafted
Lakers - Kobe was drafted; Shaq was a FA
Pistons - Isiah was drafted
Celtics - Bird was drafted
Showtime:- Magic was drafted; Kareem came by trade. (Early in his career)

I just tend to think that your best player and (probably) your second best will come by the draft. And Your 3rd, 4th, 5th and others will come by trade or FA or draft. So, if you consider Marbury the best knick now, history would say that he won't lead the Knicks to a ring. The history of a #1 player being traded 3 or 4 times; then leading a team to a ring just isn't there. Knick's ticket sales should go up; their wins should go up some; but, all in all, I'd rather be the Suns in this trade, if rings are the thing.

Dice, Eisley and Ward don't even matter here...Ward is expected to be gone within the week. It's all about cap space to go after Kobe; Milos and Lampe and two picks....and that may or MAY NOT turn into great stuff for the Suns...

But we DO need to wait to find out, sorry !!!

[kg_veteran]

OP - I just enjoy making snap judgments, and you tried to ruin that for me. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Back to the trade, I talked to a friend of mine last night who is a die-hard Knicks fan, and he likes the trade because it makes the team better now. He acknowledges that the team has mortgaged its future, but he says the future was already mortgaged with the Houston contract for the next three years anyway. His feeling is that it's better to have a team that can compete in the crappy East and maybe get lucky and win the East than a team that can't and still be over the cap.

Interesting points.

[MavKikiNYC]

His feeling is that it's better to have a team that can compete in the crappy East and maybe get lucky and win the East than a team that can't and still be over the cap.

This is called "denying the problem".

[OutletPass]

With the recently "offensively challenged" rockets ahead of the Knicks, in New York, by 30 with 10 minutes to go in the fourth period, I can only wonder what Knick's fans are saying now...as they're on the way to their worse loss of the year, so far.

[OutletPass]

The final score:

Rox 111
NY 79

And it wasn't even that close...

Knicks fans are going to have to decide on their tickets....spit or swallow ?