Kidd to Dallas

[LRB]

uber I think zo is more than done as an effective player and most likely as a player period. The trade works without adding Delk as well as with him. If NJ would take Delk, I couldn't be happier. But he doesn't fit into their long rang plans and leas less salary cab space free. I have no qualms doing the Walker and L8 for Kidd and Zo and then buying out Zo. We're still getting a great deal.

[uberfan]

I don't doubt that Zo is done. Apparently he is telling everyone he wants to attempt a comeback. I wouldn't mind if Mavs want to let him try, if not buy him out.

The inclusion of Delk is to trim roster. Chances are Delk is going to need to be included in some deal somewhere. NJ is as good as any destination for this year.

[LRB]

Uber I agree that it would be great if we could dump the Delk garbage on NJ, but I think we have a much less chance of getting Kidd if we insist on this. All I'm saying is if NJ doesn't want to do it with Delk, then do it without Delk. I wouldn't let NJ having to take Delk be a sticking point.

[poohrichardson]

We can just keep Delk and keep him on the IR all year if need be. As it's been said earlier, he's more or less dead weight and completely irrelevant on the Mavs' roster/future plans, so if we can dump him, great, but if not, no big deal.

As it pertains to Zo.. I think he's one of the greatest centers of the modern era, and even if he can only be 50% of the player that he used to be, he's still as hard a worker as there will ever be in the league, and if we're paying him anyway, might as well let him give a comeback a shot. I mean heck, it's like having a taller, stronger, blacker Najera for crying out loud! Sounds good to me.

[Poindexter Einstein]

My offer

Kidd (90.5M) .... FOR Stack (22.5) and TAW (22) and Laettner (6.2)

Thats about 40M in savings.

[MavKikiNYC]

Valuing Kidd--Would anyone bite if the deal were:

Dallas Receives: Kidd, Mourning, Williams

New Jersey Receives: Walker, Laettner, Harris, Pavel


The deal works $$-wise, althought RealGM says Harris can't be traded until 15 Dec.

Would Kidd and the chance to contend over the next 2-3 years be worth the taking on Mourning's contract, in addition to giving up the assets that Walker's and Laettner's expiring contracts represent, along with the prospects Harris and Pavel?

[grndmstr_c]

Valuing Kidd--Would anyone bite if the deal were:

Dallas Receives: Kidd, Mourning, Williams

New Jersey Receives: Walker, Laettner, Harris, Pavel

No.

[Mavs414]

we are not gonna trade harris are u crazy

[vinnieponte]

I just hope we don't get all worked up for another shaq type situation where Mark claims to try for something and we end up with nothing, kidd would bring back the pace we need to win and develop harris with. Carter would be great also but Orlando has a better chance of winning the Championship than us having both, ohwell.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

No.

You don't think Kidd is worth that? I don't think Jersey is gonna let him go for free.

Mavs lost out on O'Neal in part because they were trying to peddle expiring contracts and scrap metal to the Lakers.

OTOH, Pat Riley, who actually managed to swing the deal for O'Neal, offered substantive assets--Odom, Butler, Grant.

I'd hate to see the Mavs lose out on the opportunity to acquire one of the few difference-makers in the league today because they keep trying to get the best of other teams in trades.

Thorn is no idiot. He knows what he has in Kidd, and he doesn't HAVE to trade him for a crappy offer.

I agree that this package is kind of expensive, but again my question would be is the opportunity to win with Kidd worth the value of expiring contracts plus the potential of the young and as yet unproven players?

[grndmstr_c]

I just hope we don't get all worked up for another shaq type situation where Mark claims to try for something and we end up with nothing

Do you really think the Mavs didn't inquire about Shaq? Do you really think the reason Shaq isn't a Mav is that Mark just wasn't very interested in acquiring him, rather than that the Lakers simply weren't willing to trade him to a Western Conference contender? Cause if you do I'm curious to hear why you would think something that flies in the face of both common sense and all the available information on what happened.

[grndmstr_c]

You don't think Kidd is worth that?

If he were younger, not coming off the injury/surgery, and/or had a more favorable contract I'd be more inclined to look at that sort of trade. Given that he's none of the above, though, that's just too steep a price to pay IMO.

I don't think Jersey is gonna let him go for free.

I won't pretend to have any idea what they'd be willing to take, or what others would offer. I do think the issues that are worrying me will be a concern to others, though. If NJ can get a mix of expiring contracts and young talent from some other team, more power to them, but I think cap relief is about all I'd feel comfortable offering.

[vinnieponte]

There were certain players we could of given up, would it be the best, who knows but there was more of a chance than Mark led people to believe, I'm sure of it. Yet I'm done with the whole Shaq situation, however I don't want us coming out empty handed or with average players at the end of August. I want kidd, carter would be great.

[grndmstr_c]

There were certain players we could of given up

Who?

[vinnieponte]

sad to say it but Dirk, we could of but we didn't, yet I'm glad we didn't. My point being is I don't want excuses from Mark if no pg is traded. We need the kidd. Now excuse me I have a tyson fight to get ready for.

[grndmstr_c]

Cuban said outright that he would not trade Dirk. So regardless of whether his and Mitch's conversation was more involved than Mark indicated it still boils down to the same thing. They didn't want anything the Mavs were willing to give up. Personally, I think the contention that Mark would prevaricate about an issue he'd already been very upfront on (Dirk trade rumors) is a little silly. LA was not going to trade Shaq to the Mavs.

[mavs413]

Spurs, Lakers, Mavs potential destinations

By Marc Stein
ESPN.com

The San Antonio Spurs, Los Angeles Lakers and Dallas Mavericks are the three teams that most intrigue Jason Kidd as possible destinations if he demands a trade from the New Jersey Nets, league sources told ESPN.com.

Kidd has expressed interest in moving to each of those teams in the past month, sources said, in the wake of the Nets discarding starters Kenyon Martin and Kerry Kittles.

Kidd was on the verge of leaving New Jersey and signing outright with San Antonio in July 2003, but sources indicate that the Spurs -- on top of concerns about Kidd's surgically repaired left knee -- now feel they lack the financial flexibility to bring Kidd in via trade after re-signing Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili and adding Rasho Nesterovic and Brent Barry over the past two summers.

The Lakers, meanwhile, don't appear interested in taking on Kidd's contract, sources said, since a Kidd-Kobe Bryant backcourt partnership would keep L.A. well over the salary cap for the rest of the decade.

One source close to Kidd said there's a belief in the point guard's camp that Dallas' Mark Cuban is the only owner out there who'd be willing to absorb the five years and $90 million-plus left on the deal Kidd signed last summer ... and with Kidd expected to miss the start of the season after microfracture surgery on the 31-year-old's left knee on July 1.

The Mavericks' interest is by no means certain, though. Dallas declined to offer Steve Nash more than $36 million over four guaranteed seasons in part because of fears that the 30-year-old could not physically handle a longer contract, prompting Nash to sign with Phoenix. Re-acquiring Kidd, who was drafted by the Mavericks in 1994, would potentially cost them more long-term than Dallas' recent attempts to trade for Shaquille O'Neal. Kidd would likely have to prove his health to the Mavericks before even a gambler such as Cuban would take that risk.

Yet unlike the Spurs, who presently lack trade-friendly contracts, Dallas and the Lakers have trade assets that could satisfy the apparent cost-cutting intentions of incoming Nets owner Bruce Ratner ... and enough leftover talent on their rosters to contend for the championship after adding Kidd.

The Mavericks can package the expiring contract of former Eastern Conference All-Star forward Antoine Walker and promising swingman Josh Howard in a swap for Kidd. The Lakers have two expiring contracts (Gary Payton and Rick Fox) and more than one inexpensive young player (Kareem Rush and Luke Walton) to offer the Nets if they change course and decide to pursue Kidd.

The bigger unknown is how New Jersey would respond to a trade demand. Ratner could refuse and attempt to rebuild the franchise around Kidd and Richard Jefferson. But it's believed that Kidd has no interest, at his age, in a rebuilding project. As leverage to force a trade, Kidd could attempt to draw out his recovery from knee surgery, increasing the chances that the Nets will struggle early next season and encounter even more trouble than expected attracting fans to Continental Airlines Arena as a Brooklyn-bound lameduck.

Holding off San Antonio to re-sign Kidd last summer was supposed to bring stability to the Nets and cement them as an East power after back-to-back trips to the NBA Finals. New Jersey has instead seen nothing but tumult in the year since, starting with release of Dikembe Mutombo and the failed comeback Alonzo Mourning, the center Kidd urged the Nets to sign. The firing of coach Byron Scott soon followed, in spite of Kidd's season-long knee troubles, and the tumult continued after a brief renaissance under new coach Lawrence Frank, ending with a second-round playoff exit. Since then, the controversial ownership change and Martin's departure in a sign-and-trade with Denver have sparked fears that Kidd will try to force his way out.

[cheesestar]

we couldve signed a healthier nash for less money rather than take on kidd... that contract really worries me, as well as his health...

[grndmstr_c]

Does anybody know anything substantive about Kidd's surgery other than that it's the same basic class of surgery as what Webber/Najera have had and struggled with? I've found at least one account of the injury and surgery suggesting it's less severe than some other microfracture cases because the injured portion of the knee is not a weight-bearing region, and hence short-term recovery and long-term prognoses might actually be pretty good.

Also, could Kidd potentially agree to make the last year of his contract a team option? (of course could is a long way from would - that's a lot of money)

[Drbio]

Why would Cuban want Kidd after having passed on Nash for less money?

It's not going to happen.

[Poindexter Einstein]

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC

You don't think Kidd is worth that? I don't think Jersey is gonna let him go for free.

Mavs lost out on O'Neal in part because they were trying to peddle expiring contracts and scrap metal to the Lakers.

OTOH, Pat Riley, who actually managed to swing the deal for O'Neal, offered substantive assets--Odom, Butler, Grant.

I'd hate to see the Mavs lose out on the opportunity to acquire one of the few difference-makers in the league today because they keep trying to get the best of other teams in trades.

Thorn is no idiot. He knows what he has in Kidd, and he doesn't HAVE to trade him for a crappy offer.

I agree that this package is kind of expensive, but again my question would be is the opportunity to win with Kidd worth the value of expiring contracts plus the potential of the young and as yet unproven players?

I have NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO interest in that. Kidd is good but far from a dominating player, and his injury makes him a huge risk with a monster contract.

For Shaq, they can have all our expiring contracts. But for an injured Kidd? No way. And Harris doesnt get traded either.

Would I take Kidd and his monster deal? Only if NJ takes back SOME money that we want to get rid of, and mid-tier talent (only).

Your deal gives too much to NJ for a player with a jillion questions marks and a bloated contract on top.

[mavsfanforever]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
My offer

Kidd (90.5M) .... FOR Stack (22.5) and TAW (22) and Laettner (6.2)

Thats about 40M in savings.

That would the best offer. If Kidd wants out Nets have no choice but to trade him. But somehow I doubt that noone else will chip in with a better offer than that.

[Evilmav2]

Dallas trades:
PF Antoine Walker (14.0 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 4.5 apg in 34.6 minutes)
PF Christian Laettner (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 20.5 minutes)
SF Josh Howard (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 23.7 minutes)
SF Jon Stefansson (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 23.7 minutes)

Dallas receives:
PG Jason Kidd (15.5 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 9.2 apg in 36.5 minutes)
C Alonzo Mourning (8.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.9 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -5.0 ppg, -9.9 rpg, and +2.0 apg.

New Jersey trades:
PG Jason Kidd (15.5 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 9.2 apg in 36.5 minutes)
C Alonzo Mourning (8.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.9 minutes)

New Jersey receives:
PF Antoine Walker (14.0 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 4.5 apg in 82 games)
PF Christian Laettner (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 48 games)
SF Josh Howard (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 67 games)
SF Jon Stefansson (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 67 games)

Change in team outlook: +5.0 ppg, +9.9 rpg, and -2.0 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Dallas and New Jersey being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Dallas and New Jersey had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

[Poindexter Einstein]

MFF .... I wonder how much value he has. That contract will eliminate most. The knee will eliminate more. The combo will eliminate more. Age will factor in.

Dallas might be completely disinterested at ANY price, frankly.

My sense is that many Mavs fans are in panic mode, willing to chase anything that MIGHT add value (no matter how risky). But I don’t think there is a need for panic - instead, I am willing to be patient. Shaq would have been worth chasing but not Kidd.

Kidd is a high risk acquisition. My guess is that NJ would love to move him. I would definitelyt NOT chase such a deal. (That is, I wouldnt include Howard, or Harris, or a pile of expiring contracts, or take Zo too, or etc). However, I would consider Kidd if in return NJ took some money back, like TAW or Stackhouse or both.

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: Drbio
Why would Cuban want Kidd after having passed on Nash for less money?

Ummm, because Jason Kidd is the best point guard on planet earth, plays absolutely stellar defense and can average 35+ minutes a game in the regular season and 40+ minutes a game in the postseason.

He is the best in the business, and unless this team wants to waste the prime years of Dirk Nowitzki's career then they need to make this deal happen.

[Poindexter Einstein]

HITMAN ..."Ummm, because Jason Kidd is the best point guard on planet earth, plays absolutely stellar defense and can average 35+ minutes a game in the regular season and 40+ minutes a game in the postseason.

He is the best in the business, and unless this team wants to waste the prime years of Dirk Nowitzki's career then they need to make this deal happen. "


How about Jason Kidd WAS the best point guard on planet earth, USED TO play absolutely stellar defense and COULD average 35+ minutes a game in the regular season and 40+ minutes a game in the postseason.

He WAS the best in the business

But he may never be that player again - and his deal has 5 more years at outrageous numbers. You don’t even know what you get - plus you have to hope he can play AT ALL in 5 years. Ugh


-------------------------

[grndmstr_c]

unless this team wants to waste the prime years of Dirk Nowitzki's career then they need to make this deal happen.

You have to admit that there is some possiblity that going after Kidd could in fact guarantee that the Mavs waste the prime years of Dirk's career if Kidd weren't healthy. That is a huge contract that could severely restrict future roster moves. At a more basic level, though, this is going too far simply because you don't know what other sorts of deals the Mavs might have on the table.

[MavKikiNYC]

Odd to see three of the game's top six players (McGrady, O'Neal and now possilby Kidd) moved in the same year. Kidd has been a Top-Five player for the last 3 years, far-and-away THE top point guard for the last 3 years, and has dominated games during that time. More dominant than McGrady, more dominant than J.O'Neal, more dominant than K.Martin, more dominant than P.Pierce, more dominant than Iverson, more dominant than Vince Carter. He is as able to dominate the game from the PG position as Shaq is now from the center position.

Injury, combined with age, combined with the $$$-value and duration of his contract are definite and legitimate considerations.

But reading a lot of the trade proposals here gives the impression that a lot of posters are in shark-mode, only looking to make a deal if it clearly favors the Mavs, and goes by THEIR salary cap blueprint. That didn't work for acquiring O'Neal, and in fact, has only worked for shuffling a constant parade of flawed and/or mediocre players with back-breaking contracts--Juwan Howard, LaFrentz, Van Exel, TAW, Jamison, Fortson, Walker.

Given the x-factor of injury, I'm not certain of Kidd's value myself, but I think it's going to take more than most of the proposals I've seen.

Jersey is definitely in salary-restructuring mode. They want to clear cap room and minimize/avoid tax hit, so they do want expiring contracts (which eliminates players like Stack and Fin). But they also have to put a team on the court next year, and so they are also looking for young, cheap talent. Walker and Laettner provide the former; to make the deal, I think it's also going to take some of the latter.

[Joey]

Jersey is definitely in salary-restructuring mode. They want to clear cap room and minimize/avoid tax hit, so they do want expiring contracts (which eliminates players like Stack and Fin). But they also have to put a team on the court next year, and so they are also looking for young, cheap talent. Walker and Laettner provide the former; to make the deal, I think it's also going to take some of the latter.

My feelings exactly!

[Misfit Mav]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
How about Jason Kidd WAS the best point guard on planet earth, USED TO play absolutely stellar defense and COULD average 35+ minutes a game in the regular season and 40+ minutes a game in the postseason.


-------------------------

Kidd's injury is a concern, but I think it's less of a concern than it is being made out to be. Kidd played all last year on a bum knee, and he missed 15 games. Despite that, he led the league in assists and made All NBA 1st team for the 5th time. He then went on to lead the play-offs in assists, and lead a Nets team that took 3 victories from NBA Champions Detroit, which is two more than the Lakers could muster. He had off-season surgery to correct the problem, so I would think that his production would be actually be improved over last year's.

I don't think it's the kind of thing that happened to Webber-- CWebb had a cartilage tear that took him out of commission completely. Surgery wasn't able to totally correct the problem and he hasn't played well since. Kidd had a nagging injury which he played through (and played well), and has had optional surgery to correct it. Perhaps I'm wrong, because I don't know about the specifics of the surgery/injury, but I haven't heard too much made of it outside of this board.

[Misfit Mav]

Here's an AP article describing the surgery. Again, I could be wrong, but from the article it doesn't sound like anything career-threatening.

EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. -- New Jersey Nets All-Star guard Jason Kidd had surgery on his left knee Thursday.

Kidd is expected to begin rehabilitation immediately, but Nets president Rod Thorn said there is no timetable for Kidd's return.

Kidd missed 15 games last season because of problems with the knee. Nonetheless, he led the NBA with nine triple doubles and was selected to the All-NBA first-team for the fifth time in his career. He averaged 15.5 points and 9.2 assists in 67 games.

[Joey]

It isn't the injury that is the concern...it IS the surgery. I think that J-Kidd will be fine, but it is the same surgery that C-Webb and Mash had and have had trouble coming back from. It is a new surgery that is still fairly exploratory. That is the concern. But you are right. C-Webb couldn't walk before the surgery and J-Kidd was posting triple doubles. I believe he'd be fine. Mark Stien does believe though that the Mavs would have his rehab tested and make sure the operation is a success before a trade would be done. I think that if this trade does go down, the Mavs docs, for Cubes frame of mind, would have to give the go ahead first. With that said, if you can get one of the best points of all time, you do it...even if we give up Howard. Even with his past health problems, Zo wants to make a comeback and I wouldn't mind seeing it with the Mavs. If it doesn't work, we could use him for PPod and DJ as the rockets have Patrick Ewing and Yao Ming.

[endtroducing]

one point about Kidd's surgery, though: his injury was much less severe than the ones Webber and Mashburn had...and I imagine he'd be able to recover fully.

but, I mean...I can't see how ANYONE would pick having vince carter over Kidd. players like Vince are a dime a dozen, new, good swingmen come into the NBA every year. you won't pick up a jason kidd in the draft.

[grndmstr_c]

Just because there's an abundance of swing players does not mean there's an abundance of swing players as good as Vince. The dime-a-dozen swing player argument works when you're talking about adding/retaining marginal talent on the wings. It does not apply to guys with Top 10 talent.

[endtroducing]

vince ain't top 10 anymore...or the best swingman in the league, or even in the east.

[grndmstr_c]

I never called him the best swingman in either conference. And I said Top 10 talent. He's got it, and if he can stay healthy and get on a team with talent around him you'll see him spoken of again as being of that caliber.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
Just because there's an abundance of swing players does not mean there's an abundance of swing players as good as Vince. The dime-a-dozen swing player argument works when you're talking about adding/retaining marginal talent on the wings. It does not apply to guys with Top 10 talent.

What exactly does Vince bring to the Mavs that they are in desperate need of? Defense? PG help? Rebounding?

[Joey]

[b][i] you won't pick up a jason kidd in the draft.

again...



Co-Rookie of the year for whom...?

[grndmstr_c]

LRB, I said in Sike's poll thread regarding VC and Kidd that if you're taking into account what the Mavs need that I'd vote Kidd over Carter (even though I voted Carter over Kidd in the thread because of age and contract issues). I'm not deluded into thinking that Vince is an ideal complimentary piece, but if we traded for Vince it would be to upgrade production at the 2/3 over what we currently have, and I personally feel that he is just a flat out better player than anyone we currently have manning those positions. Now, I wouldn't sell the farm for him, and the practical reality may be that there are other trades that require the Mavs to give up less yet which also do an equally good job of improving the Mavs. If that's the case you don't trade for him, but I wouldn't let the fact that Carter's not a Marionesqe rebounder (he's not great but he's better than Stack or Fin) or Bowenesqe defender (gets a undeserved bad rap in this respect) or Kiddesque point guard (people seem to love to say VC doesn't make those around him better but I'm firmly convinced that, like Dirk, his presence does make things easier for those around him) dissuade me from acquiring him when the sum total of what he brings to the court is better than anything we've currently got on the roster outside of Dirk.

[Joey]

CBS.Sportsline.com says that the rumor is "The Fort Worth Star-Telegram reports that the Mavs are interested in trading for Vince Carter. Players being dangled by the Mavs include Christian Laettner, Jerry Stackhouse, Tony Delk and Tariq Abdul-Wahad. "

I noticed that Walk is not on this list.

If the Mavs can turn Walk into Kidd and any of these into Carter, then I am all for it!