Krugman: Views Differ on Age of Planet

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by SeanL

But I'm not putting my faith in them. I require them to present evidence for their claims.

What do you do for a living - are you a scientist? Do you spend every waking moment poring over data from every scientific study on the planet? You must be an amazing individual to have such a vast and comprehensive understanding of science that you can scrutinize every single detail of scientific research for proof instead of having to take a scientist's word at face value like the rest of us...

Whereas, religious folk ask for no such evidence for the claims in the bible.

You seem to think that the only religion on the planet is Christianity and that all Christians are fundamentalists who believe that the Bible is to be taken literally... Here's a crazy little fact that you could have discovered through scientific rigor: the Jews, authors of the Old Testament, never intended their work to be taken literally... That's why I mentioned the Talmud, which is the ancient and ongoing debate among the Hebrews about how to translate the meaning of the Torah - it's not exactly the scientific method, but it certainly is a call for evidence.

[SeanL]

Originally Posted by Underdog

What do you do for a living - are you a scientist? Do you spend every waking moment poring over data from every scientific study on the planet? You must be an amazing individual to have such a vast and comprehensive understanding of science that you can scrutinize every single detail of scientific research for proof instead of having to take a scientist's word at face value like the rest of us...

I'm in the middle of getting my clinical doctorate. I won't be doing research when I get my degree, but in the process of getting my degree I have been involved in a fair amount of research.

Anyhow, the point I am making is that since these scientists have published their methodology and analytical techniques I can, if I desire to, test their findings. And when a scientist does publish his/her findings many people do end up retesting their hypothesis using the said methodology.

There is no such recourse with the bible. It makes a fair amount of extraordinary claims and provides not testable evidence to support any of it. So if I desired to test the claims in the bible I couldn't.

As the saying goes: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Originally Posted by Underdog

You seem to think that the only religion on the planet is Christianity and that all Christians are fundamentalists who believe that the Bible is to be taken literally... Here's a crazy little fact that yo could have discovered through scientific rigor: the Jews, authors of the Old Testament, don't believe that any of it literally happened.

Actually the Ultra-Orthodox Jews do believe in the literal translation of the old testament. Like any religion Jews have their fundamentalists. All religions have their extremes. The reason why I mentioned the bible is because Christianity is the most common religion here in America. Christianity, however, is no different than Judaism, Hinduism, or Islam.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by SeanL

Actually the Ultra-Orthodox Jews do believe in the literal translation of the old testament. Like any religion Jews have their fundamentalists. All religions have their extremes. The reason why I mentioned the bible is because Christianity is the most common religion here in America. Christianity is no different than Judaism, Hinduism, or Islam.

Most Jews think Ultra-Orthodox Jews are idiots - you're attributing the beliefs of a fundamentalist minority to the majority... Oversimplified generalizations don't have any place in science.

And you missed the edit in my last post about the Talmud... It's an ancient and ongoing debate among the Hebrews about how to translate the meaning of the Torah - it's not exactly scientific method, but it certainly is a call for evidence. Not every religion is created equally.

[SeanL]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Most Jews think Ultra-Orthodox Jews are idiots - you're attributing the beliefs of a fundamentalist minority to the majority... Oversimplified generalizations don't have any place in science.

And you missed the edit in my last post about the Talmud... It's an ancient and ongoing debate among the Hebrews about how to translate the meaning of the Torah - it's not exactly scientific method, but it certainly is a call for evidence. Not every religion is created equally.

Actually I come from a Jewish family, and that is not how the ultra-orthodox are viewed. For example, Israel subsidizes the ultra-orthodox to NOT work in Israel so they can spend all day to "study." Yes there are a lot of reform Jews who hate the ultra-orthodox, but most Jews don't think the ultra-orthodox are "idiots."

And the Talmud is more similar to a legal code. Not a scientific journal. It's full of a lot of opinion, but not necessarily facts. Saying sections of the Talmud are equivalent to scientifically performed studies, is like saying the opinion page of the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal are the equivalent of scientific studies.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by SeanL

Actually I come from a Jewish family

Me too, but I don't buy into any of it - just like most Jews I've ever known (with the exception of a few dingbats)... I also know a lot of Christians (mostly American Catholics) who don't believe in a literal translation of the Bible either.

And the Talmud is more similar to a legal code. Not a scientific journal. It's full of a lot of opinion, but not necessarily facts.

I admitted that it wasn't scientific, but at least it was a rudimentary attempt at trying to debate the Torah - not just a bunch of people simply believing what mommy and daddy told them... You can't paint every religion on the planet with an American Fundamentalist Christian brush because that's not even close to how a chunk of the world approaches religion.

[SeanL]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Me too, but I don't buy into any of it - just like most Jews I've ever known (with the exception of a few dingbats)... I also know a lot of Christians (mostly American Catholics) who don't believe in a literal translation of the Bible either.



I admitted that it wasn't scientific, but at least it was a rudimentary attempt at trying to debate the Torah - not just a bunch of people simply believing what mommy and daddy told them... You can't paint every religion on the planet with an American Fundamentalist Christian brush because that's not even close to how a chunk of the world approaches religion.

The Talmud has as much validity as the Wall Street Journal editorial page. Nay, it has even less, because at least the opinion columns will occasionally cite a scientifically performed study.

The Talmud comes to its opinions purely based on anecdotal evidence. And anyone who is familiar with science knows that anecdotal evidence is not evidence of anything. The Talmud is useless.

And the only reason why the vast majority of individuals are any religion is because they were taught that from birth. Including Judaism.

Your faith is almost entirely a function of what family you were born into. Not because you arrived at some logical conclusion.

[SeanL]

Originally Posted by SeanL

The Talmud has as much validity as the Wall Street Journal editorial page. Nay, it has even less, because at least the opinion columns will occasionally cite a scientifically performed study.

The Talmud comes to its opinions purely based on anecdotal evidence. And anyone who is familiar with science knows that anecdotal evidence is not evidence of anything. The Talmud is useless.

And the only reason why the vast majority of individuals are any religion is because they were taught that from birth. Including Judaism.

Your faith is almost entirely a function of what family you were born into. Not because you arrived at some logical conclusion.

Here is a video that does a great job explaining this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by SeanL

The Talmud has as much validity as the Wall Street Journal editorial page. Nay, it has even less, because at least the opinion columns will occasionally cite a scientifically performed study.

The Talmud comes to its opinions purely based on anecdotal evidence. And anyone who is familiar with science knows that anecdotal evidence is not evidence of anything. The Talmud is useless.

And the only reason why the vast majority of individuals are any religion is because they were taught that from birth. Including Judaism.

Your faith is almost entirely a function of what family you were born into. Not because you arrived at some logical conclusion.

I never said the Talmud was valid - I said it was an attempt at seeking a truth beyond the Torah... It was ultimately unsuccessful because the Hebrew scope of reality was built upon a mythology, but it was still an attempt to seek a firsthand understanding and not just take the words at face value... Without those kinds of baby steps, science would have never come about.

Besides, religion works best when it focuses on human interaction rather than trying to explain the universe - science doesn't cover philosophy. You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss EVERYTHING about religion just because it's not 100% true - if one little tidbit has value, then why ignore it? That's not very scientific.