Josh Edgy About Contract Status - Mike Fisher / DallasBasketball.com - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mary · 10-09-2006, 10:56 PM

Quote:

You cant "come like a man".

I'm officially scared to refresh this thread.

Dirkadirkastan · 10-09-2006, 10:57 PM

Can we just toss this "MIP" crap term and just replace it with "X-factor" or something?

Drbio · 10-09-2006, 10:57 PM

wow. Why do all of the newbies suck ass?

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 10:57 PM

ohh myyy god LOL

I'd rather read Mighty Toines post than this garbage lol.

I'd like to see you respond to Five-o as well lol... This is a masacre.

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

If I remember correctly...Dirk had the highest +/- of any major player in the league last season...

Not even close......Dirk is about #5 when comparing top players.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Can we just toss this "MIP" crap term and just replace it with "X-factor" or something?

That would sure make this a lot less confusing. The problem with "X-Factor" is he's still comparing Josh to Dirk... So Dirk is still in the "running" for whatever sick game we're playing right now.

Five-ofan · 10-09-2006, 10:59 PM

BTW, i think i have come up with the first blatantly obvious flaw in 82games.com, stats. The mavs are listed as +1.1 pts per 100 possessions without dirk on the court, yet they were -11 total points with him off the court for the season. Thats not possible.

sike · 10-09-2006, 10:59 PM

it is just me...or is it hard to listen to a guy who spells it "Xpert"?

I guess Pip was more important than MJ? and Worthy more than Magic...and McKale more so than Bird, and so on...I mean...they all did the little things...they all benefited greatly from playing with such an amazing player...so they must be more "important" right?...I mean...they did the dirty work!!!

please.

I am now dumber for reading the last serveral posts.

sike · 10-09-2006, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

I'm officially scared to refresh this thread.

but we all know she did!!!!

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:01 PM

Sike you're talking MVP talk duh!!! You need a refresher course in Basketball 501 it sounds like!

Drbio · 10-09-2006, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

BTW, i think i have come up with the first blatantly obvious flaw in 82games.com, stats. The mavs are listed as +1.1 pts per 100 possessions without dirk on the court, yet they were -11 total points with him off the court for the season. Thats not possible.

You forgot to convert using the MIP cofactor and then divide by a lack of intelligence and then inflate it with false self worth.

That should fix it.

sike · 10-09-2006, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Not even close......Dirk is about #5 when comparing top players.

first off...that is pretty close for off the top of my head...

and second, is Josh even in the top 50?

chumdawg · 10-09-2006, 11:05 PM

Wow, this has turned into an interesting discussion!

I think I get creditx's point. It's not that Howard is a better basketball player than Dirk. It's not that you would trade Dirk for Howard, straight up. Not at all.

What it IS is a very real phenomenon that makes a difference in every game and in every playoff series. Namely, every team at that level has a "top" guy, and those guys are usually so good that they tend to be wash with the other team's top guy. Where the games and series are won and lost are actually at the second level, or even the third or fourth.

For example, there are only a handful of guys as good as a Garnett or an AI. But when those guys don't have a Pippen-esque sidekick, their teams are easily exploited. But when they DO have that sidekick, both players' talents come to the fore.

We saw this firsthand in our two tilts with Phoenix the last two years. The first time around, we could take our pick of who we wanted to take out of the game, Nash or STAT. And we generally did pretty well with our choice. But the other guy just flat shredded us. Then this last year, Nash didn't have that second fiddle, and the Suns succumbed to us without incident.

All the attention goes to guys at the top of the roster. But the margins are so thin, relatively speaking, at the top that in many cases it's a wash. It's the lower positions where teams gain advantages.

That being said, would you, CreditExpert, please fill us in on some things? You throw out this term, "Basketball 501," on several occasions, and you seem to attempt to demean the people here for not knowing what it means. At the same time, you indicate that you have played pro ball. Well, I've been following basketball for about twenty years, and I consider myself a fairly knowledgeable fan, but this is the first time I have ever heard the term "Basketball 501." So would you please let us non-insiders in on what it means?

I'm sure we would all also be interested in hearing about your basketball career. If you came here looking for other guys who played pro ball, I'm afraid you came to the wrong place. But your insights are highly welcome--to me, anyway--and I'd like to know about where you are coming from.

Thanks for the help. By the way, I live just down the street from Kurt Thomas. You think he can tell me what "Basketball 501" means? I'll see if I can ask him.

sike · 10-09-2006, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Sike you're talking MVP talk duh!!! You need a refresher course in Basketball 501 it sounds like!

I'm sorry...I just simply know too much basketball to break it down into classifications

I love Josh...and would even argue that he is the second most important player on the team...but what he brings just simply cannot compare the first team all NBA greatness of Dirk...in any arena, any classification, or discussion.

Dirkadirkastan · 10-09-2006, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

That would sure make this a lot less confusing. The problem with "X-Factor" is he's still comparing Josh to Dirk... So Dirk is still in the "running" for whatever sick game we're playing right now.

Didn't credit admit Dirk > Josh somewhere (justifying Dirk = mVp at least)? That's where I'm confused.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:10 PM

Chum I understand that Josh was a huge part of our finals run last year, and we need him to do well if we want to get back.

What I DONT agree with is the idea that "Josh is more important than Dirk." I'm fine with saying: Besides Dirk, Josh Howard is the most important player on the Mavs. To say it in comparison with the superstar just makes it sound rediculous.

Without Josh backing him up, Dirk might not win a Finals.
Without Dirk leading him, Josh will never make the Finals.

Dirk is high and above on the list of Most Important, Most Valuable, Most Coolest German Ever, Most whatever... Josh can be a close second on all those... Don't think he's German though.

sike · 10-09-2006, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

For example, there are only a handful of guys as good as a Garnett or an AI. But when those guys don't have a Pippen-esque sidekick, their teams are easily exploited. But when they DO have that sidekick, both players' talents come to the fore.

We saw this firsthand in our two tilts with Phoenix the last two years. The first time around, we could take our pick of who we wanted to take out of the game, Nash or STAT. And we generally did pretty well with our choice. But the other guy just flat shredded us. Then this last year, Nash didn't have that second fiddle, and the Suns succumbed to us without incident.

All the attention goes to guys at the top of the roster. But the margins are so thin, relatively speaking, at the top that in many cases it's a wash. It's the lower positions where teams gain advantages.

if the argument were: "The overall better stocked team will usually win", then I think we all agree...but to say that Josh is more important than Dirk in any sense other than guarding and playing the 2-3 position is rediculous.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Didn't credit admit Dirk > Josh somewhere (justifying Dirk = mVp at least)? That's where I'm confused.

I'm not sure... he's not making much sense. He says Dirk is the MVP, but Josh is more important than Dirk.

dude1394 · 10-09-2006, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:
You cant "come like a man".

I'm officially scared to refresh this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

I'm officially scared to refresh this thread.

Now THAT was damn funny.

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

so come up with a clear definition for what you think most important is. Then explain to me why you think the 82 games.com stats even remotely support it.

I was not posting a link to support ANY argument, I posted that link to support stats that fans/media dont even look at when talking basketball 501. Even that link to me does not support even an MVP for a league, mabye for a team, but not for a league. Put that link does post alot of vital info that teams look at for each game. When I factor in those stats I also look at intangibles that a player brings as well.

Here are some of my thoughts on "Importance"...It is about what energy you bring on offense and defense. How the team reacts to you while on defense, it is about your role on defense. It is about who the team trusts you to guard in key situations. It is about the defensive I.Q. It is about your toughness on defense against defenders your size or bigger. It is about your transition speed from defense to offense. Do you see my common thread? It is mainly defense. Then offense second.

It is also about your value on the team on the offensive end, while playing with the top 5-man rotation for offense and defense. It is about your value to bring energy to the MVP. It is about how well you compliment the MVP. It is about you stepping up when the MVP is down or out. It is about how your MVP feels about your value to the team. It is about you taking a defensive load off the MVP, so that the MVP can use more energy on offense.Lastly, it is about being the perfect side-kick to the MVP.

sike · 10-09-2006, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Here are some of my thoughts on "Importance"...It is about what energy you bring on offense and defense. How the team reacts to you while on defense, it is about your role on defense. It is about who the team trusts you to guard in key situations. It is about the defensive I.Q. It is about your toughness on defense against defenders your size or bigger. It is about your transition speed from defense to offense. Do you see my common thread? It is mainly defense. Then offense second.

It is also about your value on the team on the offensive end, while playing with the top 5-man rotation for offense and defense. It is about your value to bring energy to the MVP. It is about how well you compliment the MVP. It is about you stepping up when the MVP is down or out. It is about how your MVP feels about your value to the team. It is about you taking a defensive load off the MVP, so that the MVP can use more energy on offense.Lastly, it is about being the perfect side-kick to the MVP.

I don't mean to be rude...but it did not surprise me that many of those categories you just listed are rather subjective. Do you realize that?

sike · 10-09-2006, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Lastly, it is about being the perfect side-kick to the MVP.

ah.

Dirkadirkastan · 10-09-2006, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

It is about your value to bring energy to the MVP. It is about how well you compliment the MVP. It is about you stepping up when the MVP is down or out. It is about how your MVP feels about your value to the team. It is about you taking a defensive load off the MVP, so that the MVP can use more energy on offense.Lastly, it is about being the perfect side-kick to the MVP.

So by your definition, Dirk is disqualified from being the MIP from the start. (The MIP must complement the MVP)

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:18 PM

sooo... you're saying the MVP is more important than the MIP?

uhh

Dirkadirkastan · 10-09-2006, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Now THAT was damn funny.

Especially since it's at the top of the page!

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:20 PM

Dirkadirka... I keep thinking that must be what he means, but then he keeps comparing Dirks defensive stats with Howards. Makes no sense to compare their stats if they aren't being compared.

I'm going to chalk this down as idiocy and move on.

Credit: Just know that it sounds stupid when you use the title (Most Important Player) when describing the second most important player on the team, then expect people to "get it".

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Wow, this has turned into an interesting discussion!

I think I get creditx's point. It's not that Howard is a better basketball player than Dirk. It's not that you would trade Dirk for Howard, straight up. Not at all.

What it IS is a very real phenomenon that makes a difference in every game and in every playoff series. Namely, every team at that level has a "top" guy, and those guys are usually so good that they tend to be wash with the other team's top guy. Where the games and series are won and lost are actually at the second level, or even the third or fourth.

For example, there are only a handful of guys as good as a Garnett or an AI. But when those guys don't have a Pippen-esque sidekick, their teams are easily exploited. But when they DO have that sidekick, both players' talents come to the fore.

We saw this firsthand in our two tilts with Phoenix the last two years. The first time around, we could take our pick of who we wanted to take out of the game, Nash or STAT. And we generally did pretty well with our choice. But the other guy just flat shredded us. Then this last year, Nash didn't have that second fiddle, and the Suns succumbed to us without incident.

All the attention goes to guys at the top of the roster. But the margins are so thin, relatively speaking, at the top that in many cases it's a wash. It's the lower positions where teams gain advantages.

That being said, would you, CreditExpert, please fill us in on some things? You throw out this term, "Basketball 501," on several occasions, and you seem to attempt to demean the people here for not knowing what it means. At the same time, you indicate that you have played pro ball. Well, I've been following basketball for about twenty years, and I consider myself a fairly knowledgeable fan, but this is the first time I have ever heard the term "Basketball 501." So would you please let us non-insiders in on what it means?

I'm sure we would all also be interested in hearing about your basketball career. If you came here looking for other guys who played pro ball, I'm afraid you came to the wrong place. But your insights are highly welcome--to me, anyway--and I'd like to know about where you are coming from.

Thanks for the help. By the way, I live just down the street from Kurt Thomas. You think he can tell me what "Basketball 501" means? I'll see if I can ask him.

You explained it 100%. Thanks for taking the time to look through what I was trying to say. Basktball 501, is kinda like looking at college courses from freshmen to senior year. In the early years most beginner classes start at 101, then 201 on forward. NBA is the highest level, which is usually 501 classes in college. Like Basketball 101 is the basics.

You got my point exactly. Most of the time Superstars cancel out each other in a game or series. The second guy actually becomes the most important guy because he is the true X-factor. If we look at the SA/Mavs playoff series, it went down the third choice for each time. Duncan/Dirk canceled each other out, Howard/Ginboli canceled each other. It left Terry/Parker, and Terry won that battle with a combination of Harris included.

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

So by your definition, Dirk is disqualified from being the MIP from the start. (The MIP must complement the MVP)

Yes, you got it, Dirk was never in the picture on that one;-) I think the ultimate MIP ever in this league was Pippen. Naturally that excludes MJ...

Dirkadirkastan · 10-09-2006, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

You explained it 100%. Thanks for taking the time to look through what I was trying to say. Basktball 501, is kinda like looking at college courses from freshmen to senior year. In the early years most beginner classes start at 101, then 201 on forward. NBA is the highest level, which is usually 501 classes in college. Like Basketball 101 is the basics.

You got my point exactly. Most of the time Superstars cancel out each other in a game or series. The second guy actually becomes the most important guy because he is the true X-factor. If we look at the SA/Mavs playoff series, it went down the third choice for each time. Duncan/Dirk canceled each other out, Howard/Ginboli canceled each other. It left Terry/Parker, and Terry won that battle with a combination of Harris included.

Yes, that's the term everybody else uses for that. X-factor. But where fluid and I were got lost was when Dirk and Josh were being compared. That's much different than a discussion about matchups.

Dirkadirkastan · 10-09-2006, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Yes, you got it, Dirk was never in the picture on that one;-) I think the ultimate MIP ever in this league was Pippen. Naturally that excludes MJ...

I still think it should be called something else. Like X-factor. Or Best Supporter. Or Robin.

Drbio · 10-09-2006, 11:33 PM

I wish credit would answer chums question completely. Credit implies that he either played pro ball or is more knowledgable for some intangible factor which is more than likely bunk. So.....you have some splainin' to do Lucy.

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Dirkadirka... I keep thinking that must be what he means, but then he keeps comparing Dirks defensive stats with Howards. Makes no sense to compare their stats if they aren't being compared.

I'm going to chalk this down as idiocy and move on.

Credit: Just know that it sounds stupid when you use the title (Most Important Player) when describing the second most important player on the team, then expect people to "get it".

If you noticed I always brought defense into it. Dirk was never considered, but you all wanted to bring him into it, so I tried to explain why, but I failed to get my point across until chumdawg broke down what I was saying.

Dirkadirka: Just know that it sounds dumber for you to compare Dirk and Howard for MVP. Better yet to even discuss it in that way. Lastly you all brought up the stat part, I just went along with it for your sakes. For the record, Superstars from each team cancels out each other..Remember that....

Five-ofan · 10-09-2006, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

You explained it 100%. Thanks for taking the time to look through what I was trying to say. Basktball 501, is kinda like looking at college courses from freshmen to senior year. In the early years most beginner classes start at 101, then 201 on forward. NBA is the highest level, which is usually 501 classes in college. Like Basketball 101 is the basics.

You got my point exactly. Most of the time Superstars cancel out each other in a game or series. The second guy actually becomes the most important guy because he is the true X-factor. If we look at the SA/Mavs playoff series, it went down the third choice for each time. Duncan/Dirk canceled each other out, Howard/Ginboli canceled each other. It left Terry/Parker, and Terry won that battle with a combination of Harris included.

i understand what your saying but you just chose a horrible term to describe it. No matter how you slice it, what you described is not the most important player. It could be an x factor or something along those lines BUT its just not most important.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:35 PM

Basketball 501 is the stupidest, elitest thing I've seen someone post in awhile. Besides, you'd think someone knowledgeable in 501 would be familiar with the common useage of the term "X-Factor".

Where did you play your professional ball credit?

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-09-2006, 11:36 PM

Don't you just love when newbies come in and act like they know everything when they really know nothing?

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

If you noticed I always brought defense into it. Dirk was never considered, but you all wanted to bring him into it, so I tried to explain why, but I failed to get my point across until chumdawg broke down what I was saying.

Dirkadirka: Just know that it sounds dumber for you to compare Dirk and Howard for MVP. Better yet to even discuss it in that way. Lastly you all brought up the stat part, I just went along with it for your sakes. For the record, Superstars from each team cancels out each other..Remember that....

And that whole "Superstars cancel each other out" crap is so bogus.

Drbio · 10-09-2006, 11:38 PM

You know credit...it might help your cause if you didn't come here from a weak ass now defunct site and automatically expect others to be lectured to by you. You should probably cool the jets, try to take a more tactful conversational tone and stop with the pompous ass schtick.

Just a thought.

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I still think it should be called something else. Like X-factor. Or Best Supporter. Or Robin.

Keyword in your sentence was "I" ......You are were arguing "MY" statement with "MY" meaning behind MIP...Like I said, we were talking about two difference things. I think I said it three times.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:40 PM

doublepost***

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-09-2006, 11:40 PM

I get what you are saying credit, but it still doesn't make much sense. Howard is the X-Facotr, but he isn't the most important player. The most important player=a player that cant be replaced and is vital to a team's success. Dirk is easily our MVP as well as our "MIP" but Howard is the X-factor.