Recap: The entertainment of the Josh Howard Contract thread - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

jthig32 · 10-11-2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I did go back and read, and it confirmed my initial feelings. The way I read it, he put forth some opinions (more on those in a moment) and joined in a pretty lively discussion. Then he made (what I guess was) the mistake of mentioning his history playing ball.

Now, I thought that the way he presented that was interesting. He came right out and said he went overseas but couldn't make it to the NBA. And then he said there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that the everyday fan doesn't see. I'm sure that's true. But for whatever reason, this part didn't go over well with some of the guys around here. (I'm sure it probably had something to do with the thread in the lounge about the Yahoo forum.)

And the NEXT thing to happen was that names started being called. He held out for a little while before responding, but the dogpile was getting pretty deep. And once that happened, then it all unraveled from there.

Anyway, I'm sure everyone here will forget about it in a day or two, so I don't think it's much of a big deal anyway.

However, I *do* remain intrigued by this idea of the importance of the "second fiddle," as it were. I have heard from a few people, whose opinions I respect, that believe Jordan would have never won a title (or at least, not won near as many) without Pippen. I really do believe there is something to that concept.

And I am also intrigued by the idea that Howard is up and coming to the extent that in a few years he may be the best player on the team. Intriguing notion.

And finally, I'm interested in hearing about this hand injury that up till now I have never heard about. Don't you find that interesting? Maybe it's bullshit. Who knows? But if this guy does have some inside info, my guess is you won't be getting it anymore.

Come on Chumn. You're not blind. Anyone can see the condescension reeking from most of his posts. Basketbal 101 and 501??? Come on.

And using your supposed status as a low level professional basketball player over those that 'just played intrmurals" is ridiculous.

People asked him for his inside info. DLord ASKED him what he mean by 6 different things that would be holding up the deal. He refused to answer them all.

fluid.forty.one · 10-11-2006, 06:06 PM

Chum the satire in blehblehblehs joke post summed up what pissed us off about Xpert. It sounds funny when you know bleh is joking, but Xpert was saying the same things except he was completely serious. Sorry but jthig is right.

chumdawg · 10-11-2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I completely agree about Pippen with jordan, the theory of needing a second star isnt remotely new. The problem is that like i mentioned earlier as far as second stars go, Josh is below average at best. Hes not a star and thats all there is to it.

As for the hand injury he is talking about Joshs Thumb which was injured fairly badly. I thought that was common knowledge.

And I tend to agree with you about Howard. He seems too experienced a player to still have a tremendous upside. But I'm always interested in someone persuading me that one of the Mavs might have that kind of potential.

I guess I have forgotten about an injury really slowing Howard down, if I knew it at the time.

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-11-2006, 06:08 PM

Chum, even though his intial point was decent, I still don't see how you can take this guy's side in this debate.

chumdawg · 10-11-2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Come on Chumn. You're not blind. Anyone can see the condescension reeking from most of his posts. Basketbal 101 and 501??? Come on.

And using your supposed status as a low level professional basketball player over those that 'just played intrmurals" is ridiculous.

People asked him for his inside info. DLord ASKED him what he mean by 6 different things that would be holding up the deal. He refused to answer them all.

You're right about that. But did you notice that it came AFTER he was called a fucking moron and a piece of shit?

jthig32 · 10-11-2006, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You're right about that. But did you notice that it came AFTER he was called a fucking moron and a piece of shit?

That's half true. He brought up his basketball experience before he was ever insulted.

Five-ofan · 10-11-2006, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You're right about that. But did you notice that it came AFTER he was called a fucking moron and a piece of shit?

Hey it was effing not what you said. Remember i try not to curse on here anymore

Also the idea that josh who is about 2 1/2 years younger than Dirk is gonna magically bridge the HUGE gap between the two is a bit moronic imo.

Pirate · 10-11-2006, 06:14 PM

Chumdawg, you said "We should probably be a little nicer to new people who actually want to talk hoops."

Ignoring the dismissive arrogance adopted by the newbie from the get-go, how about considering the "discussion-worthiness" of the following statements by this bozo. Once you look at the things being said, it's hard to treat them seriously. You think these are credible statements worth discussing?

And keep in mind that before you can even deal with one of these gems, another two or three come gushing forth.

1. The Mavs are under the cap from 2007 forward.
2. Who is the Mavs MVP in 2009-2010 with this current roster? Howard!
3. I can name about 6 things working against this deal for now. These obstacles have been in place for all extensions for contracts.
4. [Howard] is also our best rebounder in traffic
5. MVP and MIP have different roles on a team
6. Since you are the smart one, please enlighten me on the 10-point breakdown of a player film session? I am clearly talking over your head, so just dont respond
7. Dirk is not a traffic rebounder
8. the hands are tied for the Mavs and Howard right now, unless Howard says he will accept the highest amount he can extend for right now.
9. That is why you see so many deals where the signing bonus is so high and the salary is lower.
10. Sometimes that huge signing bonus will put you close or over the cap just to get a deal done.
11. Sometimes when you see players fire agents real quick, is because language in the contract comes to light that is not in the best interest of the player.
12. Talk basketball 501 with me. ..Have you heard the basketball terminology "Basketball 501"?
13. For the record, Superstars from each team cancels out each other..Remember that....
14. Since I am a huge idiot dont reply to my posts.
15. do you know how smart a monkey is? Of course you don't, because you would not had let that come out of your lil mouth.
16. Howard does not have any plays for him, so his points have to come from transition points.
17. It has to happen like this to get the most from Howard. If they renew him now ...
18. This is why the Mavs should have waited another year to give Daniels that type of money.
19. Now if Howard was the MVP, this would had been taken care of with a shorter contract extension like Wade and Lebron's contracts.
20. And this is coming from a person who proclaims to be a "LORD"?????????????? Go figure
21. Do more research the Mavs last year for tax issues is 2007-2008 year(http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/dallas.htm). Tax is not an issue.
22. I am not going to hold your hand on it, just read up on it since it is your CBA bible, which it is still not the complete CBA info, and also is not the official rulebook on this situation, because there are still other loopholes in the CBA.
23. This tells me that you are indeed a journalist. Your credibility is now shot with me.
24. Until he tells me he has signed an actually contract and had an actual agent and attorney to decipher the CBA for him then dont expect me to see him as an self-proclaimed expert with the CBA.
25. Not even current NBA players can decipher it. It takes an attorney to decipher the CBA, and a good one at that.
26. It is hard for me to put it in words w/o an attorney, but their is alot of things behind the scene that the public dont have access to
27. All I am saying is that it is not "Cut" and "Dry" like most people think. I know this personally.
28. The Mavs are restricted to show their top hand right now because of the CBA.
29. Josh and his camp feel his value is more than what the max in the CBA can offer him.
30. It could be that Josh would accept the max extension contract, but the Mavs have not offered it yet
31. I am not an attorney or expert to the CBA and DLORD is NOT as well. If he was he would not be a writer, he would be an attorney.
32. Every NBA groupie is just as persistent as yourself. Ever heard of cold shoulder? What about falling on death ears?
33. Far from stupid or old, but I guess you are catechized enough to say that? I would never listen to a loquacious person like yourself when you post like this. Never mind how I decide to post, I just post and hit the submit button. When did a message board become the cream of society for spell check? See your last post farther proved that for the most part philistinism is a common trait in many who have blasted me simply because my view point was different. Now go break that down, Mr. Pundit...

That pile of sheer lunacy was all by one person, in one thread. One. There are so many factual errors and just stupid things said in there, you cant even begin to discuss them. And that's just a partial list.

And you think everyone should have stopped and tried to engage in some sort of serious hoops discussion with him, or considered his words as having some merit, when mixed in the middle of such a pile of manure?

You yourself tried to dig him out of his hole, and as soon as you turned your back, he had dug himself an even deeper one with DLord and others.

I'm sorry, but at some point when dealing with this type, all you can do is just take a step back and start laughing at the sheer folly.

jthig32 · 10-11-2006, 06:16 PM

That is one hell of a list. Very nice work again.

fluid.forty.one · 10-11-2006, 06:16 PM

Pirate <3. My personal favorite is "Ever heard of cold shoulder? What about falling on death ears?"

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-11-2006, 06:18 PM

Well done Pirate, that's a hilarious list.

jthig32 · 10-11-2006, 06:19 PM

I like the signing bonus one that Dude pointed out earlier. The guy got his sports mixed up.

chumdawg · 10-11-2006, 06:21 PM

Well, Pirate, you have to hand him one thing. He didn't back down from a fight!

The factual errors are what they are, but I do think that some of the rest of it was a result of his being put on the defensive. Once it turned ugly in the early going, you could see very quickly where it was headed. That's why I stayed out of it, once the thread turned so far off topic. I found the initial discussion interesting. The rest of it was merely, as you say, entertaining.

Hey, maybe he did us all a favor. We need to get ourselves rounded in mid-season form, just like the team!

Five-ofan · 10-11-2006, 06:21 PM

"15. do you know how smart a monkey is? Of course you don't, because you would not had let that come out of your lil mouth."

Hes right. We should apologize to any monkeys that might read this. They didnt do anything to deserve to be insulted by being compared to this moron.

Five-ofan · 10-11-2006, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I like the signing bonus one that Dude pointed out earlier. The guy got his sports mixed up.

Nope man, thats basketball 501. You have to think out of the box when you get to upper level classes. Basketball 501 is actually football but thats too out of the box for you basketball 101 guys.

Underdog · 10-11-2006, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Pirate <3. My personal favorite is "Ever heard of cold shoulder? What about falling on death ears?"

Yeah, and he fired that one at ME - the other dumb-ass who tried to stick up for him... [not that I'm calling Chum a dumb-ass...]

Five-ofan · 10-11-2006, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Pirate <3. My personal favorite is "Ever heard of cold shoulder? What about falling on death ears?"

No man, the best part was the cover up for saying death instead of Deaf. He could have just said, geez i misspelled it big deal but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO he broke out the, I meant death, like the next level from deaf or something to that effect as a defense...

Pirate · 10-11-2006, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, Pirate, you have to hand him one thing. He didn't back down from a fight!

A fight? Hmmmm, which one are you talking about?!?!

Was it the war of brains? If so, why did he choose to come unarmed?

Or was it a battle to prove who was a wit? If so, he obviously got halfway there.

But if you are speaking of the epic "journalist-vs-jock" scrum he told us about, it obviously was the loathsome journalist over the dumb jock, in a smashing knockout. (Anyone else hoping there was a coma as a result?)

:-)

Five-ofan · 10-11-2006, 06:36 PM

BTW, I officially have given out enough rep to give you rep again mr Credit. However im going to refrain. Lets just chalk your begining up to a bad start that turned out to be funny, and start over. Im looking for a reason to positive rep you if you post anything coherent and not moronic in the next day or 2.

Tokey41 · 10-11-2006, 06:55 PM

You know one thing I dont get is this assumption that 'kids' dont know a damn thing about basketball. This argument pisses me off to no end, how does being younger dimiss anyones basketball knowledge? An eighteen year old could have been following the sport since five years old in contrast to a thirty year old following it for two years. It has no merit and this guy has brought the term up enough for me to say something. It's faulty logic, how can you justify it?

The point is being older definitely doesnt make you wiser, it just makes you bitter for young people who also happen to be smarter! I think the Josh Howard contract thread is enough evidence to back me up on this one.

creditXpert2003 · 10-11-2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I did go back and read, and it confirmed my initial feelings. The way I read it, he put forth some opinions (more on those in a moment) and joined in a pretty lively discussion. Then he made (what I guess was) the mistake of mentioning his history playing ball.

Now, I thought that the way he presented that was interesting. He came right out and said he went overseas but couldn't make it to the NBA. And then he said there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that the everyday fan doesn't see. I'm sure that's true. But for whatever reason, this part didn't go over well with some of the guys around here. (I'm sure it probably had something to do with the thread in the lounge about the Yahoo forum.)

And the NEXT thing to happen was that names started being called. He held out for a little while before responding, but the dogpile was getting pretty deep. And once that happened, then it all unraveled from there.

Anyway, I'm sure everyone here will forget about it in a day or two, so I don't think it's much of a big deal anyway.

However, I *do* remain intrigued by this idea of the importance of the "second fiddle," as it were. I have heard from a few people, whose opinions I respect, that believe Jordan would have never won a title (or at least, not won near as many) without Pippen. I really do believe there is something to that concept.

And I am also intrigued by the idea that Howard is up and coming to the extent that in a few years he may be the best player on the team. Intriguing notion.

And finally, I'm interested in hearing about this hand injury that up till now I have never heard about. Don't you find that interesting? Maybe it's bullshit. Who knows? But if this guy does have some inside info, my guess is you won't be getting it anymore.

I am also a person that feels MJ would have not won those titles w/o Pippen. As I look back at champions I dont see a Superstar type player on a team that did not have a Pippen type(Hard nose) player as his sidekick. I dont think Shaq could win a title w/o a Kobe/Penny type of player as well. That is where I feel my form of MIP is needed on that team.

For example: I think that the Rockets could win a title "IF" Yao decided to be the my form of "MIP". I see the problem is that the Rockets have 2 MVP's trying to play as a team. I think if Yao becomes the ole Shaq sidekick to Kobe when they were winning titles, then they could win it all. Yao does not have to dominate as much on offense, but he needs to become a monster on defense like the ole Shaq did b4 they started losing. I feel that when Shaq decided not to be "MIP" and try to stay as MVP, then all craziness went about.

Shaq admitted that he should have handled Kobe differently. So, when he got Wade, he gave Wade the "MVP" role and became the "MIP". If Shaq had done this with Kobe, then I am not sure who could beat LA. I am discounting Kobe's selfishness, but Shaq could have let Kobe be "MVP". It was Kobe's time to be MVP of the team.

fluid.forty.one · 10-11-2006, 07:00 PM

Comparing Dirk/Howard to Kobe/Shaq and Tmac/Yao is VASTLY overrating Josh Howard.

Let's do this...

Dirk = our mvp. Tmac = rockets mvp
Howard = our mip. Yao = rockets mip

Why have we gotten to the finals and they haven't (even 2005 when they were both healthy?)? I mean Dirk and Tmac would just cancel each other out, so wouldnt Yao dominate Howard and make Rockets the better team?

No. You know why? Cause there are about 9 other important pieces to the team. That's why it's a team sport, and that's why kobe will never win another ring. This whole topic is stupid.

jthig32 · 10-11-2006, 07:05 PM

*Sigh* This discussion gives me such tired head.

Yes, Jordan would not have won the titles had he had Courtney Alexander playing Small Forward instead of Scottie Pippen.

But, in my opinion there were several other players that played during that time that could've take Pippen's place, and the Bulls would've been at least close to equally successful.

Now, do the same thing with Jordan. Replace Jordan with ANYONE in the NBA during that time. Does Pippen win a title? Probably not.

That's why this is silly. Yes Pippen was important. Yes Josh is important. But he's far more replaceable for this team than Dirk.

Five-ofan · 10-11-2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

I am also a person that feels MJ would have not won those titles w/o Pippen. As I look back at champions I dont see a Superstar type player on a team that did not have a Pippen type(Hard nose) player as his sidekick. I dont think Shaq could win a title w/o a Kobe/Penny type of player as well. That is where I feel my form of MIP is needed on that team.

For example: I think that the Rockets could win a title "IF" Yao decided to be the my form of "MIP". I see the problem is that the Rockets have 2 MVP's trying to play as a team. I think if Yao becomes the ole Shaq sidekick to Kobe when they were winning titles, then they could win it all. Yao does not have to dominate as much on offense, but he needs to become a monster on defense like the ole Shaq did b4 they started losing. I feel that when Shaq decided not to be "MIP" and try to stay as MVP, then all craziness went about.

Shaq admitted that he should have handled Kobe differently. So, when he got Wade, he gave Wade the "MVP" role and became the "MIP". If Shaq had done this with Kobe, then I am not sure who could beat LA. I am discounting Kobe's selfishness, but Shaq could have let Kobe be "MVP". It was Kobe's time to be MVP of the team.

Hahahaha, dude i was looking to start anew but wow. You realize that what made shaq special at his absolute peak was his offense right? He was ALWAYS the MVP. Kobe was important(and on a WHOLE different level than Josh howard is) but Shaq was always the mvp.

I think the word you are looking for isnt even X-factor or robin. Its defensive player of the year for that respective team.

fluid.forty.one · 10-11-2006, 07:07 PM

Another good example is Duncan. 3 different casts, 3 different rings. Superstars win championship, a good supporting cast (meaning players 2-9 on the rotation) help.

creditXpert2003 · 10-11-2006, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirate

Chumdawg, you said "We should probably be a little nicer to new people who actually want to talk hoops."

Ignoring the dismissive arrogance adopted by the newbie from the get-go, how about considering the "discussion-worthiness" of the following statements by this bozo. Once you look at the things being said, it's hard to treat them seriously. You think these are credible statements worth discussing?

And keep in mind that before you can even deal with one of these gems, another two or three come gushing forth.

1. The Mavs are under the cap from 2007 forward.
2. Who is the Mavs MVP in 2009-2010 with this current roster? Howard!
3. I can name about 6 things working against this deal for now. These obstacles have been in place for all extensions for contracts.
4. [Howard] is also our best rebounder in traffic
5. MVP and MIP have different roles on a team
6. Since you are the smart one, please enlighten me on the 10-point breakdown of a player film session? I am clearly talking over your head, so just dont respond
7. Dirk is not a traffic rebounder
8. the hands are tied for the Mavs and Howard right now, unless Howard says he will accept the highest amount he can extend for right now.
9. That is why you see so many deals where the signing bonus is so high and the salary is lower.
10. Sometimes that huge signing bonus will put you close or over the cap just to get a deal done.
11. Sometimes when you see players fire agents real quick, is because language in the contract comes to light that is not in the best interest of the player.
12. Talk basketball 501 with me. ..Have you heard the basketball terminology "Basketball 501"?
13. For the record, Superstars from each team cancels out each other..Remember that....
14. Since I am a huge idiot dont reply to my posts.
15. do you know how smart a monkey is? Of course you don't, because you would not had let that come out of your lil mouth.
16. Howard does not have any plays for him, so his points have to come from transition points.
17. It has to happen like this to get the most from Howard. If they renew him now ...
18. This is why the Mavs should have waited another year to give Daniels that type of money.
19. Now if Howard was the MVP, this would had been taken care of with a shorter contract extension like Wade and Lebron's contracts.
20. And this is coming from a person who proclaims to be a "LORD"?????????????? Go figure
21. Do more research the Mavs last year for tax issues is 2007-2008 year(http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/dallas.htm). Tax is not an issue.
22. I am not going to hold your hand on it, just read up on it since it is your CBA bible, which it is still not the complete CBA info, and also is not the official rulebook on this situation, because there are still other loopholes in the CBA.
23. This tells me that you are indeed a journalist. Your credibility is now shot with me.
24. Until he tells me he has signed an actually contract and had an actual agent and attorney to decipher the CBA for him then dont expect me to see him as an self-proclaimed expert with the CBA.
25. Not even current NBA players can decipher it. It takes an attorney to decipher the CBA, and a good one at that.
26. It is hard for me to put it in words w/o an attorney, but their is alot of things behind the scene that the public dont have access to
27. All I am saying is that it is not "Cut" and "Dry" like most people think. I know this personally.
28. The Mavs are restricted to show their top hand right now because of the CBA.
29. Josh and his camp feel his value is more than what the max in the CBA can offer him.
30. It could be that Josh would accept the max extension contract, but the Mavs have not offered it yet
31. I am not an attorney or expert to the CBA and DLORD is NOT as well. If he was he would not be a writer, he would be an attorney.
32. Every NBA groupie is just as persistent as yourself. Ever heard of cold shoulder? What about falling on death ears?
33. Far from stupid or old, but I guess you are catechized enough to say that? I would never listen to a loquacious person like yourself when you post like this. Never mind how I decide to post, I just post and hit the submit button. When did a message board become the cream of society for spell check? See your last post farther proved that for the most part philistinism is a common trait in many who have blasted me simply because my view point was different. Now go break that down, Mr. Pundit...

That pile of sheer lunacy was all by one person, in one thread. One. There are so many factual errors and just stupid things said in there, you cant even begin to discuss them. And that's just a partial list.

And you think everyone should have stopped and tried to engage in some sort of serious hoops discussion with him, or considered his words as having some merit, when mixed in the middle of such a pile of manure?

You yourself tried to dig him out of his hole, and as soon as you turned your back, he had dug himself an even deeper one with DLord and others.

I'm sorry, but at some point when dealing with this type, all you can do is just take a step back and start laughing at the sheer folly.

Salary cap for Mavs: 2007 $69 Million (includes 18 million from Finley)
2008 current $18 million (w/o Dirk added)
2009 current $19 million

Howard MVP 2009----My opinion (Dirk will start to tale off a bit)
Many things work against getting ANY contract done.
Howard in my opinion is the best traffic rebounder
MVP and MIP play different roles on the team. They complement each other
Their are different names and ways to phrase a signing bonus. Read a NBA contract
Finding out about bad agents happen daily. Agent's screw deals up alot
For the most part Superstars cancel each other out. Role players is the key alot of times.
Mavs signed Daniels to too much money after one good season. My opinion
NBA contracts are very complex. Normal player can break it down...

This is all basketball talk, and lets see what you do from here......

dude1394 · 10-11-2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Thanks....As I also started to view their profile, it told me alot. It was a little late but from some birdies and looking at the profiles myself I saw that these were the kids on the message board.

I'm not a kid and I still think you are being an arrogrant you know what. It's look-at-me, look-at-me..

Just forget it and go to the next thing damn.

Pirate · 10-11-2006, 07:12 PM

Inventing new and vague terminology that isnt used elsewhere in basketball discussions or in locker rooms is a total dead end. Why dont you guys abandon this MVP-MIP nonsense?

If you want to talk about the best guy on a team, and the sidekick, use Batman-Robin. They are terms that have been used widely on Mavs discussion boards and that everyone knows instantly what you mean.

Otherwise you are fated to eventually get mired again in all sorts of semantics issues over "valuable" and "important" and whatnot, every time anyone wants to join the discussion without having waded through your personal history of how you invented such terms and what in the world you mean by them.

fluid.forty.one · 10-11-2006, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Salary cap for Mavs: 2007 $69 Million (includes 18 million from Finley)
2008 current $18 million (w/o Dirk added)
2009 current $19 million

Howard MVP 2009----My opinion (Dirk will start to tale off a bit)
Many things work against getting ANY contract done.
Howard in my opinion is the best traffic rebounder
MVP and MIP play different roles on the team. They complement each other
Their are different names and ways to phrase a signing bonus. Read a NBA contract
Finding out about bad agents happen daily. Agent's screw deals up alot
For the most part Superstars cancel each other out. Role players is the key alot of times.
Mavs signed Daniels to too much money after one good season. My opinion
NBA contracts are very complex. Normal player can break it down...

This is all basketball talk, and lets see what you do from here......

Howard will not be better than Dirk in 2009 unless dirk gets injured. Heck there's a way bigger chance that Howard will get injured before Dirk
Duh
Dirk is a traffic rebounder. Go read your "Basketball 501" textbooks again.
Duh
I know nothing about contracts
Duh
No they don't. Trade AI with Dirk and the mavs don't make the finals last year.
Duh
Okay...

Great insight.

Five-ofan · 10-11-2006, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Salary cap for Mavs: 2007 $69 Million (includes 18 million from Finley)
2008 current $18 million (w/o Dirk added)
2009 current $19 million

Howard MVP 2009----My opinion (Dirk will start to tale off a bit)
Many things work against getting ANY contract done.
Howard in my opinion is the best traffic rebounder
MVP and MIP play different roles on the team. They complement each other
Their are different names and ways to phrase a signing bonus. Read a NBA contract
Finding out about bad agents happen daily. Agent's screw deals up alot
For the most part Superstars cancel each other out. Role players is the key alot of times.
Mavs signed Daniels to too much money after one good season. My opinion
NBA contracts are very complex. Normal player can break it down...

This is all basketball talk, and lets see what you do from here......

Well not counting Dirk for 2008 when he will be here is kind of important salary cap wise since he will eat about half of it.

As for the bad agents, I do agree with you 100% on that one. I disagree with alot of other stuff but Im proud of you for mentioning everything in a pretty well thoughtout manner and backing things up. Its not perfect but its a start.

As to the superstars canceling each other out, i just dont agree with that at all. did Dirk and wade cancel out? Stars win big games and championships. Also on Dirk tailing off, he will only be 33. Roughly the same age nash is and he should age well since he doesnt rely on extreme quickness or athletecism but skill and size neither of which should decline by then.

dude1394 · 10-11-2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirate

Chumdawg, you said "We should probably be a little nicer to new people who actually want to talk hoops."

Ignoring the dismissive arrogance adopted by the newbie from the get-go, how about considering the "discussion-worthiness" of the following statements by this bozo. Once you look at the things being said, it's hard to treat them seriously. You think these are credible statements worth discussing?

And keep in mind that before you can even deal with one of these gems, another two or three come gushing forth.

1. The Mavs are under the cap from 2007 forward.
2. Who is the Mavs MVP in 2009-2010 with this current roster? Howard!
3. I can name about 6 things working against this deal for now. These obstacles have been in place for all extensions for contracts.
4. [Howard] is also our best rebounder in traffic
5. MVP and MIP have different roles on a team
6. Since you are the smart one, please enlighten me on the 10-point breakdown of a player film session? I am clearly talking over your head, so just dont respond
7. Dirk is not a traffic rebounder
8. the hands are tied for the Mavs and Howard right now, unless Howard says he will accept the highest amount he can extend for right now.
9. That is why you see so many deals where the signing bonus is so high and the salary is lower.
10. Sometimes that huge signing bonus will put you close or over the cap just to get a deal done.
11. Sometimes when you see players fire agents real quick, is because language in the contract comes to light that is not in the best interest of the player.
12. Talk basketball 501 with me. ..Have you heard the basketball terminology "Basketball 501"?
13. For the record, Superstars from each team cancels out each other..Remember that....
14. Since I am a huge idiot dont reply to my posts.
15. do you know how smart a monkey is? Of course you don't, because you would not had let that come out of your lil mouth.
16. Howard does not have any plays for him, so his points have to come from transition points.
17. It has to happen like this to get the most from Howard. If they renew him now ...
18. This is why the Mavs should have waited another year to give Daniels that type of money.
19. Now if Howard was the MVP, this would had been taken care of with a shorter contract extension like Wade and Lebron's contracts.
20. And this is coming from a person who proclaims to be a "LORD"?????????????? Go figure
21. Do more research the Mavs last year for tax issues is 2007-2008 year(http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/dallas.htm). Tax is not an issue.
22. I am not going to hold your hand on it, just read up on it since it is your CBA bible, which it is still not the complete CBA info, and also is not the official rulebook on this situation, because there are still other loopholes in the CBA.
23. This tells me that you are indeed a journalist. Your credibility is now shot with me.
24. Until he tells me he has signed an actually contract and had an actual agent and attorney to decipher the CBA for him then dont expect me to see him as an self-proclaimed expert with the CBA.
25. Not even current NBA players can decipher it. It takes an attorney to decipher the CBA, and a good one at that.
26. It is hard for me to put it in words w/o an attorney, but their is alot of things behind the scene that the public dont have access to
27. All I am saying is that it is not "Cut" and "Dry" like most people think. I know this personally.
28. The Mavs are restricted to show their top hand right now because of the CBA.
29. Josh and his camp feel his value is more than what the max in the CBA can offer him.
30. It could be that Josh would accept the max extension contract, but the Mavs have not offered it yet
31. I am not an attorney or expert to the CBA and DLORD is NOT as well. If he was he would not be a writer, he would be an attorney.
32. Every NBA groupie is just as persistent as yourself. Ever heard of cold shoulder? What about falling on death ears?
33. Far from stupid or old, but I guess you are catechized enough to say that? I would never listen to a loquacious person like yourself when you post like this. Never mind how I decide to post, I just post and hit the submit button. When did a message board become the cream of society for spell check? See your last post farther proved that for the most part philistinism is a common trait in many who have blasted me simply because my view point was different. Now go break that down, Mr. Pundit...

That pile of sheer lunacy was all by one person, in one thread. One. There are so many factual errors and just stupid things said in there, you cant even begin to discuss them. And that's just a partial list.

And you think everyone should have stopped and tried to engage in some sort of serious hoops discussion with him, or considered his words as having some merit, when mixed in the middle of such a pile of manure?

You yourself tried to dig him out of his hole, and as soon as you turned your back, he had dug himself an even deeper one with DLord and others.

I'm sorry, but at some point when dealing with this type, all you can do is just take a step back and start laughing at the sheer folly.

Pirate steps back, he sizes up the target...He shoots HE SCORES!!!

Knock-out baby....

creditXpert2003 · 10-11-2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

You know one thing I dont get is this assumption that 'kids' dont know a damn thing about basketball. This argument pisses me off to no end, how does being younger dimiss anyones basketball knowledge? An eighteen year old could have been following the sport since five years old in contrast to a thirty year old following it for two years. It has no merit and this guy has brought the term up enough for me to say something. It's faulty logic, how can you justify it?

The point is being older definitely doesnt make you wiser, it just makes you bitter for young people who also happen to be smarter! I think the Josh Howard contract thread is enough evidence to back me up on this one.

Are you young as well? Just asking, because being young had nothing to do with knowledge. My point was simply on insulting and name calling when I posted my opinion. This has never been a trait of a man or mature person. If you revert to those ways, then would you call it a mature choice? Or a childish choice?

In your example you equipped two people with one following the sport for 13 years and one for 2 years. In my opinion the one following the sport for 13 years would in my opinion know more about basketball.

Here is an example for you: Whose basketball knowledge would you follow first?

One person who is 38, and have followed basketball for 33 years, played basketball his whole life, played college basketball, overseas, and been around NBA players/organization for about 15 years, coached Select AAU basketball for 10 years and have access to inside information from players and whatnots.

Second person is 22 years old, never played basketball other than jr. varsity in high school, is playing intramural basketball in college, loves basketball since he was 8, loves the internet, and have the gift for gap with basketball..

dude1394 · 10-11-2006, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, Pirate, you have to hand him one thing. He didn't back down from a fight!

That's actually the one thing that drives me nuts about the guy. He seems to be someone who's going to hang on to something until you get oh...about 9 pages of posts about nothing. It he would accept some criticism then none of this would have happened.

dude1394 · 10-11-2006, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

You know one thing I dont get is this assumption that 'kids' dont know a damn thing about basketball. This argument pisses me off to no end, how does being younger dimiss anyones basketball knowledge? An eighteen year old could have been following the sport since five years old in contrast to a thirty year old following it for two years. It has no merit and this guy has brought the term up enough for me to say something. It's faulty logic, how can you justify it?

The point is being older definitely doesnt make you wiser, it just makes you bitter for young people who also happen to be smarter! I think the Josh Howard contract thread is enough evidence to back me up on this one.

You could be a basketball coaching savant for all we know. Are you?

creditXpert2003 · 10-11-2006, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Well not counting Dirk for 2008 when he will be here is kind of important salary cap wise since he will eat about half of it.

As for the bad agents, I do agree with you 100% on that one. I disagree with alot of other stuff but Im proud of you for mentioning everything in a pretty well thoughtout manner and backing things up. Its not perfect but its a start.

As to the superstars canceling each other out, i just dont agree with that at all. did Dirk and wade cancel out? Stars win big games and championships. Also on Dirk tailing off, he will only be 33. Roughly the same age nash is and he should age well since he doesnt rely on extreme quickness or athletecism but skill and size neither of which should decline by then.

The Mavs have alot of contracts ending 2007-2008. Yes, Dirk will eat a large chunk,but there is alot of cap room from that point forward. That is why I said cap room is not the issue.

When I say cancel each other out, I am talking about in most games. I think that Dirk/Wade did cancel each other out in my opinion. Wade did better, but I think the main difference was Walker/Payton. W/O those two the Mavs would have won the title even with Wade's numbers. My opionion is that Howard's lack of production to back Dirk killed us.

Starting at around 31 those wheels start to fall off. Everyone is different but at 33 you can bet you are not the same player as you were at 27. Nash was able to re-invent himself with the help of that trainer. Here with the Mavs the last two years, I thought he was finished because the wheels had fallen off always late in the season and playoffs. This is usually sure signs of getting old.

By the time Dirk gets 33, the game will have changed again to even more quicker game. Right now as we speak the game is starting to speed up. As this happens, AI's age will catch him very quick. That is why it is so important to re-invent yourself around 30. Jordan did and became MJ. He had three stages of invention.

Air Jordan (Early)--quick, careless to the hole, Pistons were going to end his career
Jordan----(Middle) played tough defense, selective to the basket
MJ---(Later)--fadaway jumper took him to the next level and prolonged his legacy.

Pirate · 10-11-2006, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Here is an example for you: Whose basketball knowledge would you follow first?

One person who is 38, and have followed basketball for 33 years, played basketball his whole life, played college basketball, overseas, and been around NBA players/organization for about 15 years, coached Select AAU basketball for 10 years and have access to inside information from players and whatnots.

Second person is 22 years old, never played basketball other than jr. varsity in high school, is playing intramural basketball in college, loves basketball since he was 8, loves the internet, and have the gift for gap with basketball..

Let's hear what they have to say, and it might be easy to decide "Whose basketball knowledge would you follow first?"

For example:

.... if the 38-year-old offered up one incredibly dumb statement after another like the list I posted earlier, the answer as to who has better hoops smarts is obviously going to be the 22 year-old.

Age and exposure to the game doesnt carry with it any guarantee to insight whatsoever. You can be older and still be clueless. Even though you might even think you know it all.

jthig32 · 10-11-2006, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Salary cap for Mavs: 2007 $69 Million (includes 18 million from Finley)
2008 current $18 million (w/o Dirk added)
2009 current $19 million

08-09:
Erick Dampier $11,550,000
Jason Terry $9,075,000
Greg Buckner $3,758,400
DJ Mbenga $2,057,000
Maurice Ager $1,042,440 (if team picks up option)
!Devin Harris $7,990,006 (qualifying offer)

I count 27 guaranteed before Dirk, and not including Devin, who almost certainly will be signed for a decent sized contract.

Add in Josh and fill out the roster and there isn't a chance in hell we're under the cap.

creditXpert2003 · 10-11-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Hahahaha, dude i was looking to start anew but wow. You realize that what made shaq special at his absolute peak was his offense right? He was ALWAYS the MVP. Kobe was important(and on a WHOLE different level than Josh howard is) but Shaq was always the mvp.

I think the word you are looking for isnt even X-factor or robin. Its defensive player of the year for that respective team.

In my opinion early Shaq was MVP and Kobe was the MIP. As time went by, I feel that Kobe became the MVP, but Shaq never accepted the role of MIP. I also feel this is when things got heated up, and Shaq started to not care, gained alot of weight, and did not anchor that defense any longer.

When this all went down, Kobe's attitude got worse because he felt it was his time to shine and Shaq's time to complement him. I think this is right. But, Kobe did take it too far and alienated himself from the rest of the team because when Shaq did not give up his MVP status, then the rest of the team followed him. If Shaq gave up that role, like he immediately did with Wade, I think the troops would have followed Kobe.

As I read your posts, it seems that you dont state opinions, you feel your points are facts. Read my posts and I post as my opionion.

dude1394 · 10-11-2006, 07:41 PM

Walker/Payton were the difference? I beg to differ it was Shaq/Mourning/Posey that was the difference from my viewpoint.

Shaq/Mourning completey changed the way the mavs had been playing and completely neutralized devin.

Edit: Morning or Mutumbo (can't ever keep those two straight)

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-11-2006, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Howard MVP 2009----My opinion (Dirk will start to tale off a bit)

For the most part Superstars cancel each other out. Role players is the key alot of times.

I would just like to address these two point, the rest I will take for what they are, because you are starting to organize your thoughts better and post them in a more thought out way.

1. This is your opinion, so I can't just say it's wrong. I will however say that I 100% disagree with it. At the start of the 09 season Dirk will be 31 years old (5-0, I believe you are wrong in saying he'd be 33) By that time he will most likely have reached his peak, but I wouldn't say he would be starting to tale off. I doubt that Josh will be able to close the gap that quickly, especially since he's only like 2-3 years younger than Dirk.

2. Superstars don't cancel each other out. Your second statement is a good one though. I get what you are saying, but the way you worded it made it sound incorrect. Basically, superstars will be superstars, so they aren't always the key to a series. It's the role players and 2-9 guys in the rotation that have to step up for the team to be successful. I think this is what you meant, and it is correct.