Mavs host Warriors: 0-1 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

ddh33 · 04-23-2007, 12:10 AM

Well, that was a clusterf**k. The Mavs played some awfully bad basketball and lost the first game of the series and home court against the Warriors.

Nothing breeds hatred like the playoffs. I really do hate the Warriors, and I don't like Nellie much either right now.

I believe that Avery Johnson's greatest strength as a coach is being able to relate to his players and get them to do some amazing things. However, my biggest critique are some of his playoff strategies. He went small tonight against the Warriors, and I didn't like it. I understand why he did it; I just don't agree with it. I thought he should try to play bigger and pound Golden State. Instead, he played small and negated a big advantage that his team had. The Warrior guards are better than Dallas'. By playing small, Dallas allowed them to thrive...

Want to know something scary? The Mavs defense was better than I expected, and the team still lost - at home. That doesn't do much for my confidence.

Umm, that guy wearing #41 tonight didn't look like the MVP. Dirk didn't play well at all. You have to enjoy the revisionist history though to play up the story lines. God bless the manipulating media. Apparently Nellie wrote the book on how to defend Dirk. In truth, San Antonio had run their double teams from the blind side for years with Ginobili. It was always pretty effective against Dirk. Now that Nellie is doing it, people act like it he invented it.

I wish we had a couple more of Devin Harris. Actually, I just hope we have the one. Devin took a nasty fall on a Jason Richardson block late in the game that practically ended the Mavs chances. No foul, by the way.

Josh Howard played his tail off tonight too. It wasn't always smart, but it was more than a lot of guys gave.

Jerry Stackhouse was a big goat tonight. I can't remember seeing him play worse.

Baron Davis was clearly the best player on the floor tonight, and I know that he's a nightmare to guard, but I'm not sure that guarding him with a bigger guy is the right idea. I'd rather use speed to try to make him the jump shooter that he loves to be.

Hey, Stephen Jackson has one of the slowest deliveries in the league. Why can't Dallas close on it?

If Diop hadn't been in foul trouble, I wonder how much more effective he could have been?

I know Damp has been hurting, but the guy made a big impact at the end of the first half with 3 rebounds in 2 minutes. I don't know why he didn't get another second on the floor. I'll say it again, but you have to take your time against Golden State and pound them.

Jason Terry was solid tonight. He wasn't great though, and I thought he was exploited on the defensive side of the ball.

Well, I think we're going to get to see the mettle of this team sooner than we hoped. Dallas is going to be feeling a ton of pressure playing against a team that is a match up nightmare who has absolutely no fear of them.

jthig32 · 04-23-2007, 12:13 AM

0 points and 5 turnovers for Stack.

Goats of the game, 1. Avery, 2. Dirk, 3. Stack.

Avery play your effing regular rotation. What happened to our freaking system? Punish this team for not playing a center.

Dirk, grow a pair. I defend you all the time for being tough. Well, prove it. Force your will on players that are 3 inches shorter than you. Get position down low and attack.

Stack...wow. Get your head out of your ass.

endrity · 04-23-2007, 12:14 AM

I agree on AJ. If we go small we make the same mistake Spurs did last year against us. We have won 67 games playing our way, we should give it more of a try. Spin it however you want but all in all Davis, Richardson, Ellis, Jackson, Pietrus, Barnes and Harrington are better than our wing players. If we try to play against them we will lose.

rmacomic · 04-23-2007, 12:15 AM

I'm not watching another game of this series.

fluid.forty.one · 04-23-2007, 12:17 AM

I'm not sure what you guys didn't like about the small ball. Besides the last few minutes, we played very good defense. What lost the game was our horrible shooting. Our offense should be BETTER normally because of small ball, so I can't really blame it for making our offense bad. That's more the individual players fault.

jthig32 · 04-23-2007, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endrity

I agree on AJ. If we go small we make the same mistake Spurs did last year against us. We have won 67 games playing our way, we should give it more of a try. Spin it however you want but all in all Davis, Richardson, Ellis, Jackson, Pietrus, Barnes and Harrington are better than our wing players. If we try to play against them we will lose.

Here's an even better way to put it:

If the NBA became a 6'8" and under league, who would win the title every year? Well the Warriors would be elite contenders, that's for sure.

The REASON the Warriors aren't contenders for the title in this league is because good teams PUNISH them for playing the lineup they do. The Warriors have to shoot absolute lights out to beat good teams.

So what do we do? We just hand over our biggest advantage on a silver platter and even the playing ground. I just can't fathom it.

Honestly though, maybe it's more Dirk's fault. I mean, we ARE still playing a freaking 7 footer. It's not Avery's fault Dirk won't get freaking position on the block.

jthig32 · 04-23-2007, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I'm not sure what you guys didn't like about the small ball. Besides the last few minutes, we played very good defense. What lost the game was our horrible shooting. Our offense should be BETTER normally because of small ball, so I can't really blame it for making our offense bad. That's more the individual players fault.

Our offense is not better when we play small ball. Our offense is about spacing and precision. We have a freaking system. Damp's screens are also HUGE part of this offense.

Also, 14 offensive rebounds from Golden State are another reason to hate small ball.

Did you not notice Diop entering the game often coincided with a nice run?

fluid.forty.one · 04-23-2007, 12:23 AM

I did notice.. and it would have been nice if Avery would have at least TRIED damp so we had a better sample size of what we're dealing with.

SlimBig · 04-23-2007, 12:30 AM

Guys, there's really no set rotation that will constantly beat the Warriors. I know everyone keeps saying we should go big but if we do that, you will see a record number of 3 pointers being made and shot for the Warriors.

Our defensive rotation and close out on 3 pointers has been awful for years. Stackhouse, Dirk and Terry being the main culprits.

But the main reason why going big doesn't work or the Mavs is, we don't have a low post scorer. If we lose to the Warriors, they will be eaten alive by the Spurs, Suns, Rockets or Jazz. Destroyed. Their small ball works perfectly against us because we do not have an agile athletic scorer to kill them on the boards and paint and be able to come out a little on the perimeter and slow down Harrington or Jackson.

We just have to gut this one out and Dirk is going to have to play closer to the paint, at the very least at least the top off the key. He really has to exert himself and fight for position.

AxdemxO · 04-23-2007, 12:31 AM

Ahh I was at work...but tht looked bad and I have been sayin it all year. They are tough. I still think we will win, but if somehow they beat us, who can stop them.

AxdemxO · 04-23-2007, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlimBig

Guys, there's really no set rotation that will constantly beat the Warriors. I know everyone keeps saying we should go big but if we do that, you will see a record number of 3 pointers being made and shot for the Warriors.

Our defensive rotation and close out on 3 pointers has been awful for years. Stackhouse, Dirk and Terry being the main culprits.

But the main reason why going big doesn't work or the Mavs is, we don't have a low post scorer. If we lose to the Warriors, they will be eaten alive by the Spurs, Suns, Rockets or Jazz. Destroyed. Their small ball works perfectly against us because we do not have an agile athletic scorer to kill them on the boards and paint and be able to come out a little on the perimeter and slow down Harrington or Jackson.

We just have to gut this one out and Dirk is going to have to play closer to the paint, at the very least at least the top off the key. He really has to exert himself and fight for position.

If we lose to them, then SA will lose to Denver and from there it will be a few great series of offensive power that has never been seen before, where I see GS coming out of the West and winning it all. But I think we will be OK, I still think the Spurs will lose.

eleoson · 04-23-2007, 12:36 AM

Our small line-up is very ineffective...Everytime Dirk plays the 5 they are scoring at will. When Diop is on the court they can't score and we're taking the lead. Too bad he got in foul trouble. I think we should use our regular rotation and beat the hell out of those midgets on the court.

mavsfan1000 · 04-23-2007, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlimBig

Guys, there's really no set rotation that will constantly beat the Warriors. I know everyone keeps saying we should go big but if we do that, you will see a record number of 3 pointers being made and shot for the Warriors.

Our defensive rotation and close out on 3 pointers has been awful for years. Stackhouse, Dirk and Terry being the main culprits.

But the main reason why going big doesn't work or the Mavs is, we don't have a low post scorer. If we lose to the Warriors, they will be eaten alive by the Spurs, Suns, Rockets or Jazz. Destroyed. Their small ball works perfectly against us because we do not have an agile athletic scorer to kill them on the boards and paint and be able to come out a little on the perimeter and slow down Harrington or Jackson.

We just have to gut this one out and Dirk is going to have to play closer to the paint, at the very least at least the top off the key. He really has to exert himself and fight for position.

Yep the awards of rebounding and inside game isn't enough to cover the huge liability at guarding the 3 point line with this big lineup. If it was Duncan, it would be a easy decision as Duncan would eat them a live for going small. Dampier is out of shape from that shoulder injury and Diop being a horrible offensive player is the main culprit for having to go small. Damn I wish we were playing the Lakers.

Dirkgreatness · 04-23-2007, 12:37 AM

Ugh, this was UGLY. I guess no ESPN for me tonight.

chumdawg · 04-23-2007, 12:38 AM

FFO -- I think you made a fine point, that we played good enough defense and just didn't get it done on the offensive end with our small lineup.

JTHIG -- Also a salient point about the spacing and picks on offense. Worth thinking about.

But, thiggy, you misrepresent the situation when you say that good teams "PUNISH" the Warriors because they play small. You don't have enough data to back this up, and the data you do have doesn't really even support your point at all. By that I mean, this Golden State team is not the team that played all 82 games this year. Harrington and Jackson are markedly different players than Murphy and Dunleavy. You need to look at the team in the games they played together, and discount the pre-trade games. The lazy bastards aren't in Oakland anymore.

And of course, it is a certainty that Phoenix is a contender for the title, and they also play small. So I think you are off base here.

jthig32 · 04-23-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlimBig

Our defensive rotation and close out on 3 pointers has been awful for years. Stackhouse, Dirk and Terry being the main culprits.

We're the 7th best team in the league this year defending the three.

Nash13 · 04-23-2007, 12:39 AM

Only two player showed up tonight, Josh Howard and Jason Terry.

I've never been more disappointed in Dirk as i was tonight.

Flacolaco · 04-23-2007, 12:41 AM

Choke Mc'Chokerson

Flacolaco · 04-23-2007, 12:42 AM

Choking Chokinski

chumdawg · 04-23-2007, 12:42 AM

Games like this one remind me why I've often wondered if this Mavs team wouldn't be better off trading Dirk straight up for KG. I still believe that if you take the three-point shooting ability away, Dirk is not that much a better player than Gasol. But KG is WAY better than Gasol.

Avery, for the love of all that is holy, SET DIRK FREE!

Nash13 · 04-23-2007, 12:42 AM

As far as playing a small lineup, at first i was upset. But Fluid's right, our small lineup played pretty good defensively. Although i predict that Diop is going to start next game.

jthig32 · 04-23-2007, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

FFO -- I think you made a fine point, that we played good enough defense and just didn't get it done on the offensive end with our small lineup.

JTHIG -- Also a salient point about the spacing and picks on offense. Worth thinking about.

But, thiggy, you misrepresent the situation when you say that good teams "PUNISH" the Warriors because they play small. You don't have enough data to back this up, and the data you do have doesn't really even support your point at all. By that I mean, this Golden State team is not the team that played all 82 games this year. Harrington and Jackson are markedly different players than Murphy and Dunleavy. You need to look at the team in the games they played together, and discount the pre-trade games. The lazy bastards aren't in Oakland anymore.

And of course, it is a certainty that Phoenix is a contender for the title, and they also play small. So I think you are off base here.

Phoenix plays a different kind of small, but the same point applies there. We've started playing Damp more against Phoenix this season, and it's made a big difference. He's been huge on the boards for us against Phoenix.

You can say whatever you want about the Warriors post trade. The reality is they're an inferior team to this Mavs team, and they're not a contender to win the NBA title. The reason they're not is because you can not win an NBA title with the lineup they throw out there on a nightly basis.

By not playing our big guys we give away that advantage.

I still think we can overcome Avery's horrible decision and win this series, but make no mistake, it just got a WHOLE lot harder. The Warriors are damn tough to beat in their building.

purplefrog · 04-23-2007, 12:45 AM

Baron was obviously the biggest problem tonight. I think we need to pick him up full court and make him work. Outside of Davis they don't really have an above average ballhandler, so make BD give it up. George couldn't guard him because he kept fouling, so I think you go with Harris and Buck. Buck is about the only player on the Mavs who can trade physicality with Davis.

jleefilled · 04-23-2007, 12:46 AM

I think the guys were a bit rusty, but more than anything, I think they just needed to wake up and realize that the Warriors weren't just going to lay down because they're the eighth seed. I'm sure Avery tried to psyche the players into having a sense of urgency, but what with all of Don Nelson's mind games along with the fact that the Mavs really should win this series, it's only natural that one would overlook the Warriors from a Mav perspective. But, there is good news.. Nothing wakes a team up like losing the first game of a series. I look for the Mavs to win this thing in 5.

jthig32 · 04-23-2007, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplefrog

Baron was obviously the biggest problem tonight. I think we need to pick him up full court and make him work. Outside of Davis they don't really have an above average ballhandler, so make BD give it up. George couldn't guard him because he kept fouling, so I think you go with Harris and Buck. Buck is about the only player on the Mavs who can trade physicality with Davis.

If you pressure the ball handler they simply throw the ball to whoever Diop/Damp/Dirk is guarding and he brings the ball up court, assuming it's not Biedrens.

So that won't do you much good.

Dirkgreatness · 04-23-2007, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13

Only two player showed up tonight, Josh Howard and Jason Terry.

I've never been more disappointed in Dirk as i was tonight.

Diop, Devean, and Devin played well too.

FINtastic · 04-23-2007, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Here's an even better way to put it:

If the NBA became a 6'8" and under league, who would win the title every year? Well the Warriors would be elite contenders, that's for sure.

The REASON the Warriors aren't contenders for the title in this league is because good teams PUNISH them for playing the lineup they do. The Warriors have to shoot absolute lights out to beat good teams.

So what do we do? We just hand over our biggest advantage on a silver platter and even the playing ground. I just can't fathom it.

Honestly though, maybe it's more Dirk's fault. I mean, we ARE still playing a freaking 7 footer. It's not Avery's fault Dirk won't get freaking position on the block.

It is Dirk's fault tonight. I counted a number of times where Monta freakin' Ellis was matched up against him. Monta Ellis is 6-3 177 pounds. I remember in the draft camp he had a seriously weak showing in the strength tests. If Dirk can't take advantage of a matchup like that, we ARE in serious trouble. I'm pretty sure I counted Monta Ellis on him at least 4 times and I don't remember Dirk scoring any one of those times. It wasn't really the other small players that were playing bad. Harris and Howard looked fine out there. Jet was hot and cold, but otherwise solid. They may have not had their best games, but they were making plays here and there. Heck, Harris single-handedly kept us in the game. I would have like to have seen Diop in more, but he was plagued with foul trouble. I imagine Avery plays him more if he can stay out of foul trouble in game 2.

Honestly, my conspiracy theory is that we took too many games off at the end of the season. The two guys who took off the most games - Dirk and Stackhouse - looked the rustiest. I think Avery's small-ball move looks better if his players hit a few of their freakin' layups. I can't tell you how many layups we missed in the first half because I can't count that high. If you want to blame Avery for something, blame him for resting our players too much at the end of the season. I'm not sure if small ball was the major problem tonight though.

I do think we need to be able to adjust to the physical game Golden State is throwing at us. It worries me that tonight Golden State was able to get physical with us and we didn't have a good response.

MFFL · 04-23-2007, 12:51 AM

I think Dirk was uncomfortable playing center. Our centers do all the dirty work on offense and defense and that ain't Dirk's game.

And it looked like Stackhouse aged 10 years since the end of the regular season. He sucked so hard that it was embarrasing.

dude1394 · 04-23-2007, 12:54 AM

Dirk is ALWAYS uncomfortable playing the center. Is he supposed to contest everything and get in foul trouble? Is he supposed to go out and set screens. He hasn't done that all year, he plays center in spots..OFFENSIVELY.

I was shocked that avery started small against them. Absolutely shocked. The only thing it did was to not get harrington a lot of shots. But the TNT crew has it pretty right, why change before you even have to.

chumdawg · 04-23-2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

You can say whatever you want about the Warriors post trade. The reality is they're an inferior team to this Mavs team, and they're not a contender to win the NBA title. The reason they're not is because you can not win an NBA title with the lineup they throw out there on a nightly basis.

Why not? Iterate it for me.

And why can Phoenix contend for one with theirs, when Golden State can't? Because Stoudemire is two inches taller than Al Harrington? Is that the reason? Or, what exactly did you mean by "the lineup they throw out there"?

purplefrog · 04-23-2007, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

If you pressure the ball handler they simply throw the ball to whoever Diop/Damp/Dirk is guarding and he brings the ball up court, assuming it's not Biedrens.

So that won't do you much good.

Except the point is to get the ball out of Baron Davis' hands. IMO, if someone, anyone other than Davis handles the ball they will turn it over frequently. Jackson and Richardson are not that great at handling the ball imo. Ellis might be, but I am willing to take that chance. Let Harrington bring the ball up, I'm Ok with that. I really think this team folds without Davis running the show. It's similar to when Nash played for the Mavs. The defensive strategy was to cut off the head of the snake (if you could) and the offense goes south pretty quickly.

FINtastic · 04-23-2007, 12:57 AM

One reason I don't want to put the blame on small ball. We've seen the Mavs run it pretty damn well before. Remember the second game against Phoenix in December? The crucial stretches of that game were won with Jet, Howard, George, and Dirk. Can't remember who the fifth was, either Harris or Stack. But the point is, this team can play small ball for good stretches, and be pretty darn successful doing it. For whatever reason, they looked awful tonight. I'm going to chalk it up to rust, lack of focus, or whatever. They better get their heads in gear because it looks like Golden State is going to throw everything they've got at them.

jthig32 · 04-23-2007, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Why not? Iterate it for me.

And why can Phoenix contend for one with theirs, when Golden State can't? Because Stoudemire is two inches taller than Al Harrington? Is that the reason? Or, what exactly did you mean by "the lineup they throw out there"?

Because Marion defends and rebounds like an elite PF/Center, that's why. And yes, because Stoudamire is 6-10 and is a legit PF in this league.

Montae Ellis and Stephen Effing Jackson were guarding Dirk at times and we didn't make them pay.

You put a center on the floor, and you get layup after layup after layup. You get rebound after rebound after rebound. And they shoot jumpshot after jumpshot after jumpshot.

And you win. Period.

FINtastic · 04-23-2007, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Why not? Iterate it for me.

And why can Phoenix contend for one with theirs, when Golden State can't? Because Stoudemire is two inches taller than Al Harrington? Is that the reason? Or, what exactly did you mean by "the lineup they throw out there"?

Because Stoudemire is ten times more dominant than Harrington and it ain't even close.

BGMaverick9 · 04-23-2007, 12:58 AM

Some are going to say this is far-fetched, but some won't. It looks like this series could be the toughest bump on the road to the finals.

The Warriors just present so many problems for Dallas, Nellie is having a field day with it. Dallas just needs to go back to Damp, Dirk, J-Ho, George and Jet as the starters. Then a steady diet of Stack, Devin, Buck, Diop and maybe Cro in there.

I'm not sure exactly what the focus should be when they're guarding the Warriors, especially with Damp out there, but they need to put him out there for sure. Case in point, Baron just had too easy of a time getting in the paint in the 2nd half and once he got that going, he shot the lights out from outside. They really need to stay in front of them and force them for jumpers. Unless there is a situation of a small (Jet/Devin) on a "Big", I really don't see the need for a double-team. Maybe a steadier case of zone might work, to protect Damp. If Nellie notices Damp is out there, whoever is Damp is trying to defend will just go out to the perimeter and that'll cause too many rotations to be forced and open jumpers will be the end result.

If Stack has another stinker of a game in Game 2, I'll be tremendously concerned. He just looked lost out there.

purplefrog · 04-23-2007, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

Honestly, my conspiracy theory is that we took too many games off at the end of the season. The two guys who took off the most games - Dirk and Stackhouse - looked the rustiest. I think Avery's small-ball move looks better if his players hit a few of their freakin' layups. I can't tell you how many layups we missed in the first half because I can't count that high. If you want to blame Avery for something, blame him for resting our players too much at the end of the season. I'm not sure if small ball was the major problem tonight though.

I couldn't agree more.

dude1394 · 04-23-2007, 12:59 AM

Eric Dampier...

2:21 minutes played. 3 rebounds => 32rebounds/game.

Nash13 · 04-23-2007, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkgreatness

Diop, Devean, and Devin played well too.

I'll give you Diop. George had a good 1st quarter, that's pretty much it. Harris wasn't driving the ball enough tonight. And half the time he did, he missed the layup. I think more than any one thing that went wrong tonight, it was how many points in the paint the team missed. We would've won had they made most of them.

FINtastic · 04-23-2007, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13

I'll give you Diop. George had a good 1st quarter, that's pretty much it. Harris wasn't driving the ball enough tonight. And half the time he did, he missed the layup. I think more than any one thing that went wrong tonight, it was how many points in the paint the team missed. We would've won had they made most of them.

Harris went to the basket plenty. He didn't get the calls most of the time (what was that ref watching when Jason Richardson tackled him), but he certainly did drive plenty. It was his drives to the hoops in the 4th quarter that kept us alive. He did miss several chippies in the first half that I recall, though.

chumdawg · 04-23-2007, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Because Marion defends and rebounds like an elite PF/Center, that's why. And yes, because Stoudamire is 6-10 and is a legit PF in this league.

Montae Ellis and Stephen Effing Jackson were guarding Dirk at times and we didn't make them pay.

You put a center on the floor, and you get layup after layup after layup. You get rebound after rebound after rebound. And they shoot jumpshot after jumpshot after jumpshot.

And you win. Period.

Well, you and are certainly not going to solve this strategic problem here on the message board tonight. But you make good points, and I will take them under advisement.

I still think, though, that the league is changing--and fairly rapidly--as guys get more and more athletic. Guys in that 6'8" to 6'10" range, if they are super-athletic, can play with seven-footers, particularly if those seven-footers are slow of foot and they aren't.