Mavs Free Agency 11/12 - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Funkman · 11-28-2011, 09:49 AM

As much as I have a love/hate relationship with Barea, with the short training camp and all it would be best to keep him. Not the year to find and groom Kidd's replacement. I can still dream of somehow getting Deron next year and Barea can be his backup. But I don't think they should overpay him. It will be interesting to see what offers he gets and how it's going to play out.

As far as Caron. I would prefer a one year make good contract with incentives. His injury has me leery for anything long term and too high priced. The fact that the Mavs won without him probably helps the feeling he's not a high priority.

Wang Zhi Zhi · 11-28-2011, 10:15 AM

Eddie Sefko's article in the DMN today was a little odd, I thought. He seems to think that no free agent, not even Chandler, will be offered anything more than a 1-year contract this year.

Funkman · 11-28-2011, 11:18 AM

But if Miami isn't in luxury tax territory, don't they get the full MLE instead of the mini MLE? So they could offer Dalembert that.

jthig32 · 11-28-2011, 11:20 AM

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

dalger · 11-28-2011, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

One year would be the best-case scenario. If it turned out that we could only retain him by offering him two years, what would keep us from giving him those two years? How would it "hurt" us as it relates to our chances to compete for another ring? After all, it's not our money and the more prohibitive luxury tax would kick in after the two years.

jthig32 · 11-28-2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalger

One year would be the best-case scenario. If it turned out that we could only retain him by offering him two years, what would keep us from giving him those two years? How would it "hurt" us as it relates to our chances to compete for another ring? After all, it's not our money and the more prohibitive luxury tax would kick in after the two years.

It locks up a roster spot and costs money against our budget, whatever it may be.

Even if Butler were healthy I would be reluctant to give him a significant multi-year deal. He was ineffective for us two years ago and his effectiveness last season was a small sample size based on defense and three point shooting that I don't believe he will continue.

I'm just not a believer in his fit. Marion is, and should continue to be our starting Small Forward. Also, Marion's effectiveness at PF is going to continue to decline as he gets older and loses quickness. So I don't think it makes sense to sign someone like Butler who is going to expect to play 25+ minutes a game at SF.

dalger · 11-28-2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

It locks up a roster spot and costs money against our budget, whatever it may be.

Even if Butler were healthy I would be reluctant to give him a significant multi-year deal. He was ineffective for us two years ago and his effectiveness last season was a small sample size based on defense and three point shooting that I don't believe he will continue.

I'm just not a believer in his fit. Marion is, and should continue to be our starting Small Forward. Also, Marion's effectiveness at PF is going to continue to decline as he gets older and loses quickness. So I don't think it makes sense to sign someone like Butler who is going to expect to play 25+ minutes a game at SF.

I don't think that a two-year deal worth $10-14 million would be too significant for a player who could very well turn out to actually be worth it. Losing a well-liked, team-oriented guy like Butler, his potential productivity and his desirable effect on Dirk's and Marion's minutes because of unwillingness to offer him two years instead of one wouldn't exactly thrill me, to be honest.

I'd actually argue that he was a pretty good fit alongside Dirk and Marion. At the time he got hurt, he was arguably our best scorer behind Dirk and stepped up big time as soon as Dirk injured his knee (admittedly, only for a very short period of time). He's a two-way player who can easily be paired with an offensive or defensive minded shooting guard, thus providing us with a nice deal of flexibility at the wings. It's also worth noting that, while he might expect to play 25+ minutes, Caron was fine with being on the bench during crunch time and living up to Rick's "role acceptance" mantra.

Finally, it comes down to alternatives. Right now, our alternatives at the forward spots are Brewer and Cardinal. Not adding Butler to that list due to his effect on a payroll that'll be lower than last year's anyway doesn't make sense to me, assuming that we're talking about a two-year deal. Plus, we could re-sign Chandler, JJB, Butler and Cardinal and still have an open spot on our roster.

Again, I'm not preferring a two-year deal, yet it wouldn't bother me in the slightest to take that risk. The potential upside of having Caron play some decent basketball with a reasonable salary until 2013 is something I'd prefer over losing him for a mere and meaningless $6 million.

jthig32 · 11-28-2011, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalger

I don't think that a two-year deal worth $10-14 million would be too significant for a player who could very well turn out to actually be worth it. Losing a well-liked, team-oriented guy like Butler, his potential productivity and his desirable effect on Dirk's and Marion's minutes because of unwillingness to offer him two years instead of one wouldn't exactly thrill me, to be honest.

I'd actually argue that he was a pretty good fit alongside Dirk and Marion. At the time he got hurt, he was arguably our best scorer behind Dirk and stepped up big time as soon as Dirk injured his knee (admittedly, only for a very short period of time). He's a two-way player who can easily be paired with an offensive or defensive minded shooting guard, thus providing us with a nice deal of flexibility at the wings. It's also worth noting that, while he might expect to play 25+ minutes, Caron was fine with being on the bench during crunch time and living up to Rick's "role acceptance" mantra.

Finally, it comes down to alternatives. Right now, our alternatives at the forward spots are Brewer and Cardinal. Not adding Butler to that list due to his effect on a payroll that'll be lower than last year's anyway doesn't make sense to me, assuming that we're talking about a two-year deal. Plus, we could re-sign Chandler, JJB, Butler and Cardinal and still have an open spot on our roster.

Again, I'm not preferring a two-year deal, yet it wouldn't bother me in the slightest to take that risk. The potential upside of having Caron play some decent basketball with a reasonable salary until 2013 is something I'd prefer over losing him for a mere and meaningless $6 million.

Two things:

1. I don't understand how you can say that he's a good fit with Dirk and Marion when he can't be on the floor with both of them.

2. I'ts not 6 million, it's 12 million. And keep in mind that we're going to have to stay under the Luxury Tax twice in the next five years or face even more ridiculous penalties. You can no longer just say "I really don't want to lose him, eff it we'll give him an extra year even though we really don't want to".

The bottom line for me is that we acquired Butler to be our SG, only to discover that he couldn't play the position. They made it work last year and no one's saying that it's a bad thing to have two starting caliber SF's on the roster, but he's not a great fit, and we have Brewer who I think the Mavs expect to contribute this season.

mac222b · 11-30-2011, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

It locks up a roster spot and costs money against our budget, whatever it may be.

Even if Butler were healthy I would be reluctant to give him a significant multi-year deal. He was ineffective for us two years ago and his effectiveness last season was a small sample size based on defense and three point shooting that I don't believe he will continue.

I'm just not a believer in his fit. Marion is, and should continue to be our starting Small Forward. Also, Marion's effectiveness at PF is going to continue to decline as he gets older and loses quickness. So I don't think it makes sense to sign someone like Butler who is going to expect to play 25+ minutes a game at SF.

Excellent post. No way Butler should be offered more than 1 year to return.
AK47 would be a different matter. Could be real value there. His stock is low but he's shown he can be a difference maker when he's healthy and his head is screwed on right.

And yes to re-signing JJB, not only for continuity sake, but because he's sure to retain trade value. Similar to what Orlando did with Gortat, albeit on a smaller scale. Just hope that it's possible. Cant see the Mavs going much more than 3 yrs/4mil per though.

Would love to have D-Steve back on a 1year deal but am afraid he's priced himself out of our range. He really helped set the tone defensively and would be missed but there seem to be younger options with greater upside already on the roster.

Underdog · 11-28-2011, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

Agreed - Butler is too big of a risk coming off of a knee injury to dedicate more than a year to.

Besides, doesn't he still kinda OWE us for that ring?

grndmstr_c · 11-28-2011, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I will again reiterate that I have zero interest in giving Butler more than a one year deal.

Seconded.

dalger · 11-28-2011, 11:21 AM

Yep. $20 million over four years is the maximum they could offer Dalembert.

Underdog · 11-28-2011, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalger

Yep. $20 million over four years is the maximum they could offer Dalembert.

By comparison, he made $13mil last season...

jthig32 · 11-28-2011, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalger

Yep. $20 million over four years is the maximum they could offer Dalembert.

Don't forget the 4.5% raises every year.

41mvp · 11-28-2011, 11:32 AM

I hope D.Nelson will keep Tyson with us...

CATCH-17 · 11-28-2011, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41mvp

I hope D.Nelson will keep Tyson with us...

If he doesn't we won't make it back to the Finals.

41mvp · 11-28-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CATCH-17

If he doesn't we won't make it back to the Finals.

right;/

LonghornDub · 11-28-2011, 12:05 PM

I'm still waiting for horse to weigh in on these free-agency issues.

41mvp · 11-28-2011, 12:44 PM

What about Barea?If he leave our team...Do you think Roddy is ready to play?Barea was brilliant in the playoffs time.

vinylstar · 11-28-2011, 01:11 PM

I'm going on record saying we need to keep Kwame Brown as far away from the Mavs as possible. If you believe Chandler intangibles are what put the Mavs over the top last year, Brown is not where you go to fill that potential void.

This is the guy Phil Jackson had to nickname "Pussy" to motivate him...yeah.

sefant77 · 11-28-2011, 02:22 PM

9th december taking forever....pffffffffffff

Kidd Karma · 11-28-2011, 04:47 PM

Keeping in mind that lux tax don't hit the hay until 2013-14. I'd go all in the next 2 years. Tyson, Caron, maybe a point guard insurance guy, I don't know if Barea would stick around on a 2 year deal. Cuban's always been a guy spending if it makes sense. Now does Haywood make sense with a resigned Chandler, in the past, probably not, but with an amnesty in his back pocket, he may keep Haywood around at least the next year, possibly 2, before the lux tax penalties kick in. Barea's going to be an interesting FA for us, as he proved his worth during the playoffs, driving and essentially being a pest. With Kidd, can Barea be a regular season plus for us, taking on more of Kidd's minutes, knowing opposing players will get him into the post. Or do we forgo Barea, or parlay him into a sign and trade for something else. I think Chandler and Butler are 2 players we need back. Barea can be replaced with vet, then again, watching Bibby in the Finals.....sort of leads me to giving Barea a 3rd year and get into the 1.50 per buck lux tax territory.

vinylstar · 11-28-2011, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Cuban's always been a guy spending if it makes sense.

Let's not get crazy here...

grndmstr_c · 11-28-2011, 05:57 PM

The potential that exists for Dallas to re-sign Cardinal and Stevenson to short-term and/or low-dollar deals without using the MLE is also going to play into their decision making on Caron, since both of those guys can play SF. I wouldn't expect either to be higher than 3rd on the depth chart at that position, but if you've got faith in Corey to take a step forward (and I suspect jthig's right in thinking that the Mavs do), then as a GM you're not going to have any problem with a Marion/Brewer/(Stevenson and/or Cardinal) SF rotation.

sefant77 · 11-28-2011, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Keep in mind that while you may not be ready to trust Brewer, the Mavs gave him a three year (2.5 if you want to be technical) deal at over 3 mil a season. They clearly believe in him. And I think it's fairly clear that they think of him mostly as a SF. Signing Butler pushes Brewer out of the rotation completely.

And Brewer as SF works just in certain matchups. Too bad the guy doesnt have the handles to play the 2. Playing SF (and against them), the guy is 188lbs and wasnt able to bulk up since college. He misses in average ~30lbs against SF opponents. And then there are the Lebrons and Anthonys. And without Butler and Marion (bench, injuried, foul trouble) your options are Brewer, Cardinal, or maybe an undersized Stevenson (lets not remember: his numbers as SF are terrible).

And Butler wouldnt be a "backup player". He would be part of a three headed forward rotation scratching on the 30min mark.

I like Marion/Butler-Dirk/Marion with Brewer as a wildcard if they need an SG or SF or if Butler/Marion are injuried. But hell no, i dont want to have a Marion/Brewer/Cardinal SF rotation. Marion is freaking 33 years old and i want to contend for the next three years. He need a valid backup and thats not Brewer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

The potential that exists for Dallas to re-sign Cardinal and Stevenson to short-term and/or low-dollar deals without using the MLE is also going to play into their decision making on Caron, since both of those guys can play SF. I wouldn't expect either to be higher than 3rd on the depth chart at that position, but if you've got faith in Corey to take a step forward (and I suspect jthig's right in thinking that the Mavs do), then as a GM you're not going to have any problem with a Marion/Brewer/(Stevenson and/or Cardinal) SF rotation.

See my points above.

grndmstr_c · 11-28-2011, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

See my points above.

There's only one point that's really relevant, and that's the one concerning Brewer. You're not big on him, and from that foundation it's perfectly reasonable to want the Mavs to re-sign Caron. On the other hand if you're optimistic about Brewer's potential to contribute this year (as the Mavs may very well be), any concerns about Stevenson/Cardinal's ability to play a lot of SF don't really amount to much, since you're talking about backups for a backup at that point; the priority is going to be elsewhere.

Rick41 · 11-28-2011, 09:24 PM

I need to stop posting from my phone so I could provide some links, with that said, just saw on twitter a list of teams Kurt Thomas could end up on and our lovely Mavs was one of them...

Edit: here

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...ticle-1.983677

Is it the NY Daily News that loves to make stuff up?

grndmstr_c · 11-28-2011, 10:52 PM

Just looked at Jeff Foster's numbers again, and his productivity has held up better than I thought. I may have been overhasty in dismissing him as an acceptable low-cost, preserve-flexibility-for-2012 option in the event that Tyson departs.

xrobx · 11-29-2011, 12:27 AM

i think people forget butler was finally getting used to the system and had just had a 30 point game before he got hurt

grndmstr_c · 11-29-2011, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrobx

i think people forget butler was finally getting used to the system and had just had a 30 point game before he got hurt

A big part of what an optimist would call figuring out the system was him shooting the three-ball over 10 percentage points above his career average. It's extremely unlikely that he would have, or will keep that level of production up.

OneLove22 · 11-29-2011, 02:35 AM

We have Mark Cuban. No need to worry about luxury tax.

So is there a limit to how much into luxury tax you can spend?

Kidd Karma · 11-29-2011, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneLove22

We have Mark Cuban. No need to worry about luxury tax.

So is there a limit to how much into luxury tax you can spend?

Nope, no limit, just the tax goes from dollar to dollar to .25 cents per 5,000 increment and a full dollar bump for offenders 4 of the last 5 seasons.

Budapest Maverick · 11-29-2011, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

A big part of what an optimist would call figuring out the system was him shooting the three-ball over 10 percentage points above his career average. It's extremely unlikely that he would have, or will keep that level of production up.

Not necessarily. I think our system (and Dirk) was the reason why Butler's efficiency went up. Our team simply worked better in 2010/2011 then the year before. It's not like Butler was making impossible shots, he had open shots, because of our system, and because of Dirk. He simply never played anyone close to Dirk caliber before, he never had open shots like those.

I want him back, but we simply need to know what Cubes wants. Are we gonna get in the game for Howard, Williams, or Paul? If he wants to, we simply cannot resign Butler and even Chandler. If we not, we might as well resign Chandler for 3 years, Butler for 2, and try to rock the NBA again.

jthig32 · 11-29-2011, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Not necessarily. I think our system (and Dirk) was the reason why Butler's efficiency went up. Our team simply worked better in 2010/2011 then the year before. It's not like Butler was making impossible shots, he had open shots, because of our system, and because of Dirk. He simply never played anyone close to Dirk caliber before, he never had open shots like those.

Then explain why Butler was awful for half of his 2010/2011 season.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-29-2011, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Then explain why Butler was awful for half of his 2010/2011 season.

Barea was awful for the first two months of the season, but then seemed to get it. Players can turn it around, and Butler did before he got injured.

Blackspider · 11-29-2011, 03:15 AM

I'm already hearing Paul wants to play with the Knicks. This is an interesting dilemma for the Mavs. Dirk is getting older. At some point, there needs to be a younger star here that is the #1 guy. Those 3 names are Paul/Williams/Howard. How confident any of them would even sign here? If they want to go that route, they can't sign Chandler here. Then they would need to find a 1 year stop plug for this season. Without Chandler, we do not repeat or win it all this past season. But if you can sacrifice this season for a franchise player to go with Dirk for the rest of his career, do you do it?

Because if they pass on Chandler and get none of those dudes next summer, then they are empty and screwed.

xrobx · 11-29-2011, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackspider

Because if they pass on Chandler and get none of those dudes next summer, then they are empty and screwed.

not completely empty, we still have the 2011 championship regardless of how bad this team gets

Blackspider · 11-29-2011, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrobx

not completely empty, we still have the 2011 championship regardless of how bad this team gets

Well true but I mean in terms of repeating, which is a realistic goal while we still have Dirk at the end of his prime.

sefant77 · 11-29-2011, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackspider

I'm already hearing Paul wants to play with the Knicks. This is an interesting dilemma for the Mavs. Dirk is getting older. At some point, there needs to be a younger star here that is the #1 guy. Those 3 names are Paul/Williams/Howard. How confident any of them would even sign here? If they want to go that route, they can't sign Chandler here. Then they would need to find a 1 year stop plug for this season. Without Chandler, we do not repeat or win it all this past season. But if you can sacrifice this season for a franchise player to go with Dirk for the rest of his career, do you do it?

Because if they pass on Chandler and get none of those dudes next summer, then they are empty and screwed.

2012 isnt the time for this.

Paul gonna end up with the Knicks. Thats allready more than just rumors. Anthony gave an interview weeks ago mentioning regarding Paul "If the numbers working out (in the new CBA)" - pretty much telling that they allready decided to create another superteam.

That leaves Williams and Dwight. Deron said he wanna stay with Nets. And again: They will play in an incredible arena in Brooklyn, they will have cap for a max player AND trade value with Lopez. I pretty much expect Deron to stay and Dwight signing there as FA (or ending up in LA in a Bynum trade after announcing that he wont resign in Orlando).

2014 should be our FA year. Dirk gone, Marion gone and Haywood either traded or amnestied...

Blackspider · 11-29-2011, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

2012 isnt the time for this.

Paul gonna end up with the Knicks. Thats allready more than just rumors. Anthony gave an interview weeks ago mentioning regarding Paul "If the numbers working out (in the new CBA)" - pretty much telling that they allready decided to create another superteam.

That leaves Williams and Dwight. Deron said he wanna stay with Nets. And again: They will play in an incredible arena in Brooklyn, they will have cap for a max player AND trade value with Lopez. I pretty much expect Deron to stay and Dwight signing there as FA (or ending up in LA in a Bynum trade after announcing that he wont resign in Orlando).

2014 should be our FA year. Dirk gone, Marion gone and Haywood either traded or amnestied...

Yeah you are probably right, which is why it is real dangerous to put your eggs in a basket in the future. I say, go for what you know works and start signing the key pieces from the Finals team and maybe add a few other pieces from the outside.

I'm on the fence about Caron. While we did win without him, he can be a valuable piece here if he stays healthy. But he needs to be a lot more consistent than what he is. Chandler and Barea are definitely priorities over him. I'm guessing this will be Kidd's final season.