Top 25 Greatest Players Ever

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

I've already explained why I don't rely on PER because it doesn't take into account defensive performance. I don't think it's hard to pull the prime card unless you are saying you don't expect Dirk's playoff numbers to fall as he ages. At the end of the day you are comparing 11 seasons of data to 18. Dirk's playoff numbers will drop.

I prefer raw numbers. You prefer PER. Neither of us have as much reliance in the other guy's numbers so we can agree to disagree. But now that I've explained how I concluded that Malone's playoff numbers are better, since I use the raw numbers, please stop calling me names.

Either way, it seems like as of today we are almost in agreement on where Dirk is ranked, save around 4-5 spots.

I'm saying you can't pull the prime card, because even in his prime, Malone was never on Dirk's level in the playoffs. Looking at raw numbers is extremely myopic. I'm not saying PER & Win Shares are the be all end all, but they certainly hold a lot of weight. Raw numbers are distorted by pace, minutes, etc.

*Edit to add, Malone has the edge defensively, but Dirk's defense is CRIMINALLY underrated. He played fantastic defense in the playoffs. Keep in mind, Dirk post and man defense are very good. In the regular season, he tied KG in PPP on post defense. He was way ahead of Pau, Amare, LA, Scola, West, Bosh, etc.

[sike]

Originally Posted by CadBane

In the regular season, he tied KG in PPP on post defense. He was way ahead of Pau, Amare, LA, Scola, West, Bosh, etc.

+rep for posting a stat that needs to get way more play.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by CadBane

I'm saying you can't pull the prime card, because even in his prime, Malone was never on Dirk's level in the playoffs. Looking at raw numbers is extremely myopic. I'm not saying PER & Win Shares are the be all end all, but they certainly hold a lot of weight. Raw numbers are distorted by pace, minutes, etc.

You are saying a stat like PER, which doesn't even have Kareem, Magic or Bird in the top 10 but has LeBron at #2 and Robinson at #4, holds a lot of weight when comparing players? I can't put much reliance in a stat that gives David Robinson a better rating than Kareem. Kareem, Magic and Bird aren't even in the top 10 for playoff PER, yet LeBron is #3. This is the metric that we should rely on? And Hollinger states the things that PER is distorted by, and defense does matter in basketball.

As far as win shares, John Stockton is ahead of Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Kobe, Magic and Bird on that list. Magic and Bird aren't in the top 10 in that list either. This is the metric that we should rely on?

Now I will admit that the one list that looks even close to what folks might say are the top players is the playoff win shares list:

1. Michael Jordan* 39.76
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
3. Magic Johnson* 32.63
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
5. Shaquille O'Neal 31.08
6. Tim Duncan 28.84
7. Bill Russell* 27.76
8. Kobe Bryant 26.85
9. Jerry West* 26.75
10. Larry Bird* 24.83
11. Scottie Pippen* 23.58
12. Karl Malone* 22.99
13. Hakeem Olajuwon* 22.60
14. Dirk Nowitzki 22.08
15. John Stockton* 21.35
16. Chauncey Billups 20.80
17. Kevin McHale* 20.67
18. Horace Grant 20.00
19. Reggie Miller 19.90
20. Charles Barkley* 19.52
21. John Havlicek* 19.27
22. LeBron James 18.53
23. Robert Horry 18.22
24. David Robinson* 17.52
25. George Mikan* 16.97

That list looks somewhat reasonable, but even it has Moses Malone and Isiah down in the 40-50 range, and that is utterly ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as Pippen and Malone being ahead of Hakeem. If you go through the other lists you will run into a lot of situations where you say "no way in hell was player X better that player Y, i.e. David Robinson being ahead of Kareem".

So I'll say that the PER and win shares lists are distorted by the results that they produce, because I'm 100% positive you wouldn't take Robinson or CP3 over Kareem, Magic and Bird.