Top 25 Greatest Players Ever

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Nice stat-grab. That is quite odd that their numbers went in those directions. Dirk was obviously never a very good offensive rebounder because he played much further from the basket than most big men do. You'd think his offensive rebounding numbers would've gone up a bit as he's played much closer to the basket in recent years, but no.

What's really odd to me is that Barkley's defensive rebounding went up in his older years.

Barkley was really at his offensive peak from 22-28. However, during that span, his highest DRB% was only 25.4% (lower than Dirk's best year).

After that:

29: 26.3%
30: 25.6%
31: 26.8%
32: 25%
33: 27.7%
34: 28.8% (career high at 34!)
35: 25.1%

His first 8 years top out at 25.4%, but his last 7 he tops that 5 times! Strange indeed.

(I didn't count his final year where he only played 20 games.)

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by CadBane

What's really odd to me is that Barkley's defensive rebounding went up in his older years.

Barkley was really at his offensive peak from 22-28. However, during that span, his highest DRB% was only 25.4% (lower than Dirk's best year).

After that:

29: 26.3%
30: 25.6%
31: 26.8%
32: 25%
33: 27.7%
34: 28.8% (career high at 34!)
35: 25.1%

His first 8 years top out at 25.4%, but his last 7 he tops that 5 times! Strange indeed.

(I didn't count his final year where he only played 20 games.)

Maybe Hakeem was boxing out for him on every play? Who knows.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by CadBane

What's really odd to me is that Barkley's defensive rebounding went up in his older years.

Barkley was really at his offensive peak from 22-28. However, during that span, his highest DRB% was only 25.4% (lower than Dirk's best year).

After that:

29: 26.3%
30: 25.6%
31: 26.8%
32: 25%
33: 27.7%
34: 28.8% (career high at 34!)
35: 25.1%

His first 8 years top out at 25.4%, but his last 7 he tops that 5 times! Strange indeed.

(I didn't count his final year where he only played 20 games.)

Some stats are greatly affected by the personnel on the floor, and rebounding is definitely one of them...

Take Dirk, for example - sure his boards have naturally declined with age, but adding ace rebounders like Kidd and Marion around him have undoubtedly reduced the amount of rebounds he NEEDS to grab.

I don't have the time to comb through Barkley's squads, but I wonder if a change of personnel forced him to grab more boards, opposite of Dirk? That might be one way to explain the anomaly...

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by CadBane

What's really odd to me is that Barkley's defensive rebounding went up in his older years.

Barkley was really at his offensive peak from 22-28. However, during that span, his highest DRB% was only 25.4% (lower than Dirk's best year).

After that:

29: 26.3%
30: 25.6%
31: 26.8%
32: 25%
33: 27.7%
34: 28.8% (career high at 34!)
35: 25.1%

His first 8 years top out at 25.4%, but his last 7 he tops that 5 times! Strange indeed.

(I didn't count his final year where he only played 20 games.)

Can you give me a little more info on DRB%, exactly what it tells you and why it should be used over a raw number like rpg? I ask because going by the raw numbers, Barkley avg 7.7 drpg for his career. Dirk's career avg for total rebounds is 8.4.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

Can you give me a little more info on DRB%, exactly what it tells you and why it should be used over a raw number like rpg? I ask because going by the raw numbers, Barkley avg 7.7 drpg for his career. Dirk's career avg for total rebounds is 8.4.

Why are you stating Dirk's total RPG? That's irrelevant.

His defensive RPG career is 7.2.....that's 0.5 behind Barkley...which is right in line with their respective DRB%.

Defensive Rebound Percentage (available since the 1970-71 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * (DRB * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm DRB + Opp ORB)). Defensive rebound percentage is an estimate of the percentage of available defensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Why are you stating Dirk's total RPG? That's irrelevant.

His defensive RPG career is 7.2.....that's 0.5 behind Barkley...which is right in line with their respective DRB%.

Defensive Rebound Percentage (available since the 1970-71 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * (DRB * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm DRB + Opp ORB)). Defensive rebound percentage is an estimate of the percentage of available defensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

The raw stat is not irrelevant.

I just looked at the career list for this metric. Marcus Camby is #5 and Carlos Boozer is #6 on the career list. Would you argue that they are the 5th and 6th best defensive rebounders since 1971?

In the 78/79 season Moses Malone grabbed 12 drp a night. His % that season was 21.9. That's below Dirks career % of 22 and Dirk has topped 21.9 nine times. Would you argue that Dirk had a better rebounding season than Moses Malones 78/79 season 9 times? Moses is #36 on this list, and I guarantee you there weren't 35 better defensive rebounders than Moses Malone.

The conclusions for some of this metrics, which is really just another way of crunching numbers to make an ESTIMATE, are not reasonable at all when you use them to start comparing who was better at what. I'm all for using metrics to add more analysis but the conclusions have to CONSISTENTLY make sense.How do you explain some of these inconsistencies?

[Scoobay]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

The raw stat is not irrelevant.

I just looked at the career list for this metric. Marcus Camby is #5 and Carlos Boozer is #6 on the career list. Would you argue that they are the 5th and 6th best defensive rebounders since 1971?

In the 78/79 season Moses Malone grabbed 12 drp a night. His % that season was 21.9. That's below Dirks career % of 22 and Dirk has topped 21.9 nine times. Would you argue that Dirk had a better rebounding season than Moses Malones 78/79 season 9 times? Moses is #36 on this list, and I guarantee you there weren't 35 better defensive rebounders than Moses Malone.

The conclusions for some of this metrics, which is really just another way of crunching numbers to make an ESTIMATE, are not reasonable at all when you use them to start comparing who was better at what. I'm all for using metrics to add more analysis but the conclusions have to CONSISTENTLY make sense.How do you explain some of these inconsistencies?

doesn't defensive rebound rate take into account the pace of the game - if you've got games with a ton of shots going up,there's going to be more rebounds. so in that case raw numbers may not give you as much info.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by Scoobay

doesn't defensive rebound rate take into account the pace of the game - if you've got games with a ton of shots going up,there's going to be more rebounds. so in that case raw numbers may not give you as much info.

Going by the description the estimate, and I stress estimate, takes the pace of the game into account. But my question is if you are using this metric to compare players and say stuff like "Dirk and Barkley were on the same level as defensive rebounders, and look at this metric as support", then don't you expect the conclusions that the metric spits out to make sense? Going down the list the conclusions don't make sense when you start comparing players. If you are saying Dirk and Barkley are on the same level based on the metric, then your conclusion would also make you say Moses Malone was only the 36th best defensive rebounder, and that Dirk had a better drb season than Moses's best drb season 9 times. Sometimes stats lie. When you use them for analysis the conclusions have to consistently make sense.

It's the same for PER, which says that David Robinson was more productive than Wilt and Kareem.

I'm interested to see how CadBane accounts for these inconsistencies. I've explained why I don't put much faith in some of these metrics. I would like to hear why some put a lot of reliance into them when some of the conclusions are clearly wrong (just from the state of using them to compare individual players).

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

Going by the description the estimate, and I stress estimate, takes the pace of the game into account. But my question is if you are using this metric to compare players and say stuff like "Dirk and Barkley were on the same level as defensive rebounders, and look at this metric as support", then don't you expect the conclusions that the metric spits out to make sense? Going down the list the conclusions don't make sense when you start comparing players. If you are saying Dirk and Barkley are on the same level based on the metric, then your conclusion would also make you say Moses Malone was only the 36th best defensive rebounder, and that Dirk had a better drb season than Moses's best drb season 9 times. Sometimes stats lie. When you use them for analysis the conclusions have to consistently make sense.

It's the same for PER, which says that David Robinson was more productive than Wilt and Kareem.

I'm interested to see how CadBane accounts for these inconsistencies. I've explained why I don't put much faith in some of these metrics. I would like to hear why some put a lot of reliance into them when some of the conclusions are clearly wrong (just from the state of using them to compare individual players).

There ISN'T an inconsistency. For starters, you are BLATANTLY lying about what I said. Don't put fucking quotations around something I never said. I never said Barkley and Dirk were equal defensive rebounders, I said Barkley was a SLIGHTLY BETTER defensive rebounder...the metric AND raw stats conclude that.

Dirk's career DRB% is 22%. Barkley's is 23.7%.

Dirk's career DRPG is 7.1. Barkley's is 7.7.

Thus, Barkley's 1.3% edge = .6 in raw stats. How is that inconsistent?

As for Moses Malone, he only averaged 7.1 DRPG for his career (NBA)...the SAME number as Dirk! You love raw numbers so much, yet according to raw numbers, Dirk & Moses were equal rebounders.

Moses also has a BETTER DRB% than Dirk! 23.3% to 22%! So what exactly are you arguing? In fact, it's the METRIC stat that shows Moses as a better rebounder than Dirk and your RAW stats that show them as equal.

Man o man you are coming off foolish here.