The top 10 peak pgs. - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Five-ofan · 07-12-2006, 12:51 PM

I think this deserves its own thread. IMO these are the top 10 peak pgs.

1- Oscar Robertson(1961-1964)-in the best player ever discussion averaged a triple double over a 4 year stretch. Averaged a ridiculous 30-10-10 during that streak. He was a freak.

2- Magic(1987-1990)- Also in the best player ever discussion, his name says it all Averaged roughly 22-12 and 6.8 during that 4 year stretch.

3-Isiah(1984-1987)-the horrible gm/coach that he is shouldnt make people forget the absolute stud player that he was. Averaged 21-11 and 4 during that period. Was great for a long time around that as well.

4. KJ(1989-1992)- at his peak he was just a tick below isiah at his. He averaged roughly 21 - 11- 3.8. How he isnt in the HOF is beyond me.

5-Tiny archibald-(1972-1974) His 34 - 11 season in 1973 is one of the most amazing seasons ever and he had one great and one solid season right around it.

6- Gary payton-(1999-2002)He averaged roughly 22 - 9 and 5 for a 4 year period from 1999 to 2002. There isnt much of a dropoff from his peak to really good years as he had 7 more years that were almost equally as good. Not to mention that he was the premier defensive pg in the league. Sadly his inepitude recently while hanging on for a ring has made people forget the absolute monster he used to be.

7-Tim Hardaway(1991-1993) Averaged about 22.5 10 and 4. Wow i knew he was good but didnt realize he was that good.

8-Fat Lever(1987-1990)- For a 4 year stretch until he got hurt he was basically a poor mans magic. Averaged 19 pts 7.5 assists and 9 boards during that stretch. He was very good.

9- Bob Cousy(1952-57) Averaged basically 20 -7 and 6. Gets a pass on the shooting percentage because everyone shot poorly then.

10-Stockton(1989-1991) Averaged a pretty remarkable 17-14 on 52% shooting. BTW the year before he shot a ridiculous 57.4% from the field.

Honorable mention-Allen Iverson(2004-2006)I know he isnt a pure pg and i took off some points for that or he would be higher but averaged roughly 30-7-4 and 2 steals during this 3 year stretch plus he had another 4 year run that he averaged roughly 30-5-4-2.5 in. I know alot of people hate him but the guy is a stud. I took him out because he isnt really a pg but if he were he would definitely be top 10.
Steve Nash(2004-2006) Best 3 consecutive years put up a solid 16-10. Sorry but thats not enough to get on this list. Jason Kidd(2002-2004) Very good player who averaged roughly 16-9 and 7 during this stretch.

Im sure there are some others but these are the ones i found and i think overall they will stand up pretty well.

capitalcity · 07-12-2006, 01:03 PM

Cue the Nash nut-huggers...

Five-ofan · 07-12-2006, 01:10 PM

I should add that walt frazier should be an honorable mention. From 1970-72 he averaged roughly 22-7-6.5. He would be second on my honorable mention list.

GP · 07-12-2006, 02:19 PM

I understand where this thread is coming from and why since I read the other thread. I have got to say though that both threads are kind of faulty. Stats don't tell the whole story of the impact a point guard can make on a team. I think you need a different formula to guage this. Right now I am thinking it should look something like this:

[total points + total assists + total rebounds + total steals - turnovers (these include playoffs) / total games (including playoffs)] X (reg season win percentage) X (total playoff wins / total # wins required to get championship)

Now if you do this for the top point guards and come up with a list similar to yours then the formula needs to be scrapped. Anything that results in Magic being #2 is just plain silly. Any list that has KJ outperforming Cousy, Stockton or Kidd is just plain wrong. KJ was never even better than DJ. Total these up for their careers and you should see something like Magic #1, Cousy #2, Stockton #3, Kidd #4, DJ #5. Any list that celebrates numbers over results is flawed, flawed, flawed. The role of a point guard is to be the catalyst. That doesn't necessarily mean being a guy that gets a ton of points or assists. It means wins. Pro basketball is all about wins. Winning championships should be the number 1 barometer. If you think about my formula a person who doesn't win a single playoff game gets a big zero for the year. Yeah, I know the formula needs to be tweaked. I just made the danged thing up. I am gong to do more research into this. I'll let you guys know. First off though I have got to get outside to start painting. If I don't get anything done today my wife is going to be pissed.

For the career:
Summation of: [total points + total assists + total rebounds + total steals - turnovers (these include playoffs) / total games (including playoffs)] X (reg season win percentage) X (total playoff wins / total # wins required to get championship)

(does anybody know how to make a summation symbol in this format?)

GP · 07-12-2006, 02:39 PM

I have tweaked the formula some:

[avg. points + avg. assts + avg. rebounds + avg. blocks + avg. steals - avg. turnovers (regular season only)] x reg. season win percentage + [avg. points + avg. assts + avg. rebounds + avg. blocks + avg. steals - avg. turnovers (playoffs only)] x (# of playoff wins/ # of required victories to a championship)

This formula can be adapted to penalize poor fg %, etc. I think win percentage takes care of a lot of it though.

GP · 07-12-2006, 02:53 PM

Using this formula I just compared Steve Nash's season to Jason Terry's.
Terry = 38.4
Nash = 50.7

I really though Terry would do better using this formula since the Mavs did win 14 playoff games.

Contrast that to one of Magic's best years when the Lakers won 65 games and the NBA championship and Magic won the regular season and Finals MVP.

Magic = 73.1

spreedom · 07-12-2006, 03:46 PM

I honestly think it's too tough to rank point guards because there is no sure-fire, objective measurement of what makes a good PG. Is it passing alone? Running the break? Containing the opposition's PG? Efficient scoring? I can't really decide on one.. and I don't think any point was the all-time greatest at ALL of those.. too tough.

However, I would argue that Clyde Frazier could beat any of them one-on-one. That guy was a STUD. I almost think he could have beaten Jordan or Dr. J in their primes.. that's just fun to think about, though.. there's no real reason I believe it.

V2M · 07-12-2006, 04:17 PM

For the record, I was a bigtime Nash fan when he was here (I like many others in this forum, truly believed a simple Walker for a big man trade would have made us favorites that year!). I was extremely disappointed he didn't sign with us (whatever may be the reasons, I don't care!). Now though, he belongs to the enemy camp and I hate him with a passion. But to just be intellectually honest to myself, I gotta' admit, the dude's got game! His past two years have got to be right up there (stats or not!) among the best for any PG. This is not just my opinion or a few Nash fans' opinions, obviously it's the opinion of a majority of basketball followers around the nation. Or how could you explain the year that Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk or Billups had and yet it was Nash who won the award?!

2 MVPs, 2 First team All-NBAs, 2 WCFs, 2 All-Stars all in 2 back-to-back years!

Outside of Magic, who else?

Now does that make him a Top 5 all-time, may be not! But he's already acclaimed as Top-10 and if by any chance he ends up having a long career a la Stockton, watch out!!

Scoobay · 07-12-2006, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V2M

For the record, I was a bigtime Nash fan when he was here (I like many others in this forum, truly believed a simple Walker for a big man trade would have made us favorites that year!). I was extremely disappointed he didn't sign with us (whatever may be the reasons, I don't care!). Now though, he belongs to the enemy camp and I hate him with a passion. But to just be intellectually honest to myself, I gotta' admit, the dude's got game! His past two years have got to be right up there (stats or not!) among the best for any PG. This is not just my opinion or a few Nash fans' opinions, obviously it's the opinion of a majority of basketball followers around the nation. Or how could you explain the year that Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk or Billups had and yet it was Nash who won the award?!

2 MVPs, 2 First team All-NBAs, 2 WCFs, 2 All-Stars all in 2 back-to-back years!

Outside of Magic, who else?

Now does that make him a Top 5 all-time, may be not! But he's already acclaimed as Top-10 and if by any chance he ends up having a long career a la Stockton, watch out!!

uh, watch out for what? Nash is not anywhere near stockton - my goodness, the man was having 12-14 ast/game seasons, all time steals leader, etc. Stockton played in a time when there were other great pgs already mentioned - magic, zeke, GP, KJ, etc. who are the other 'great pg's' of Nash's era? Kidd? Nash is fun to watch but not in the same class.

V2M · 07-12-2006, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoobay

uh, watch out for what? Nash is not anywhere near stockton - my goodness, the man was having 12-14 ast/game seasons, all time steals leader, etc. Stockton played in a time when there were other great pgs already mentioned - magic, zeke, GP, KJ, etc. who are the other 'great pg's' of Nash's era? Kidd? Nash is fun to watch but not in the same class.

'Watch out' was said in the context of "he's already Top-10 and if he plays the game as long as Stockton did, he could get into the Top-5 all-time!".

As for comparing him with Stockton, I never said he's better than Stockton overall. I just said the past two years of Nash have been as good as any that Stockton may've had or even better. You could quote me as many ast/game stats as you want, the answer is simple: It's not just my opinion! There were many NBA greats and other basketball followers who've acclaimed Nash's past two years as simply phenomenal and on par with the best that any great PG has ever had (except may be Magic!).

Five-ofan · 07-12-2006, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V2M

Or how could you explain the year that Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk or Billups had and yet it was Nash who won the award?!

The people that vote for mvp are morons. Quite simply that is the best explanation. There was not one single measure by which steve nash deserved the mvp last year. The year before at least they had the best record even though he wasnt the best player on his own team. As for your formula gp, i agree stats arent everything but to say that KJ wasnt better than DJ(who was dang good himself btw) is just nuts. KJ has i believe 3 second team all nbas when playing against arguably the best pg ever. IMO Magic and Oscar are 1 and 1a or vice versa. Statistically Oscar was alot better but magic was just magic. As for saying hey lets just ignore the stats, the only guy on this list who i could even remotely begin to apply that logic too is Fat lever. All of the other guys won. At least as much as nash. In general the "lets just ignore the stats" argument is a weak attempt to justify making claims that arent defendable by anything but vague memories and cliches.

MavKikiNYC · 07-12-2006, 05:34 PM

I'm guessing this list is based on production as measured by big stats.

Lever and Hardaway are impostors though.

Jason Kidd and Maurice Cheeks are glaring omissions.

Five-ofan · 07-12-2006, 05:37 PM

As i said in my last post, Lever is the guy who is most guilty of the good stats bad team thing. THough yes this is mostly based on stats as in general they are the best way to measure players. Are they 100% accurate? No but they are much more accurate than the general oh i think such and such is better argument. Hardaway was in a seriously run and gun team but they were good so i dont think I would call him a fraud. The point of this originally was coming up with people better than nash has been the last couple of seasons. Once i got past around 15 i just decided to make it a top 10.

Rhylan · 07-13-2006, 12:06 AM

Stockton 10th... can't compute... dallas-mavs.com shutdown in progress...

nashtymavsfan13 · 07-13-2006, 12:10 AM

Stockton is way too low.

sike · 07-13-2006, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhylan

Stockton 10th... can't compute... dallas-mavs.com shutdown in progress...

indeed.

Kidd > Payton.

screw the numbers...at no point would I have rather had Payton than Kidd....except maybe Kidd's rookie season.

#1MavsFan · 07-13-2006, 01:09 AM

Wow, you have tim hardaway in your top 10 pg's of all time but not Kidd? That makes you lose all credibility.

I was about to make a new list but I remembered this list that was done pretty well by espn.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...estPointGuards

I would slide KJ into 9th though, and move out Nash.

sike · 07-13-2006, 01:15 AM

well this is a peak years thread....which I don't really understand the reason for

sike · 07-13-2006, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #1MavsFan

I would slide KJ into 9th though, and move out Nash.

KJ was certainly a more complete player.

chumdawg · 07-13-2006, 01:17 AM

No love for D-Harp?

sike · 07-13-2006, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

No love for D-Harp?

no room on that list my brother....I wonder where he would rank all time though....

#1MavsFan · 07-13-2006, 01:22 AM

I think we can all agree he'd be top 30 but higher? I don't know.

sike · 07-13-2006, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #1MavsFan

I think we can all agree he'd be top 30 but higher? I don't know.

I think I can agree that I have no clue where he would come in....

#1MavsFan · 07-13-2006, 01:30 AM

Yeah it's tought to judge him but he did have one amazing season when he got 20, 7, 3 and shot around 49% from the field. And than he had a bunch of "good" seasons.

nashtymavsfan13 · 07-13-2006, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #1MavsFan

Wow, you have tim hardaway in your top 10 pg's of all time but not Kidd? That makes you lose all credibility.

I was about to make a new list but I remembered this list that was done pretty well by espn.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...estPointGuards

I would slide KJ into 9th though, and move out Nash.

That's a pretty good list. I definetly think Stockton is a top 5 PG of all time.

spreedom · 07-13-2006, 02:54 AM

Stockton is definitely top 3 of all-time. Say what you want about championships and "dirty play" all you want.. but the dude was efficient as hell, and had longevity enough to be the all-time leader in both assists and steals. Personally, I'd probably put him at the top of the list, but I think Clyde Frazier is the best defensive point ever.

Tokey41 · 07-13-2006, 03:03 AM

Oscar was the best PLAYER ever, I mean he averaged a triple double, several times... that alone says it all for me personally although there are a few variables to consider, hes underated in the best player discussion imo though. You know if James can average a triple double just once I might have to consider putting him in the "who the best player is" category since to be perfectly honest James is going against greater competition and it would be much more impressive in modern times to average a triple double.

Also Stockton should be higher because of his amazing playmaking skills, thats what I think a pure point guard was supposed to be and he excelled at it. I cant believe you have some guy named Fat ahead of him.

What the hell is with these names? I mean I didnt want to say anything because I loved his game so much but Magic Johnson is a porn stars name. And Fat?? That cannot be his real name, who calls their kid FAT!?

nashtymavsfan13 · 07-13-2006, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

What the hell is with these names? I mean I didnt want to say anything because I loved his game so much but Magic Johnson is a porn stars name. And Fat?? That cannot be his real name, who calls their kid FAT!?

Magic's real name is Ervin and Fat Lever's real name is Lafayette, but those names aren't much better

nashtymavsfan13 · 07-13-2006, 03:14 AM

I think my top 3 have to be Magic, Big O, and Stockton.

chumdawg · 07-13-2006, 03:32 AM

No love for Brad Davis? His jersey hangs in the rafter of the hallowed AAC, for chrissakes!

sike · 07-13-2006, 10:33 AM

bit.

Five-ofan · 07-13-2006, 12:08 PM

The reason for this thread was when someone mentioned in another thread that nash's last two years were as good as anyone other than maybe magic as a pg in the history of the nba. I decided to look some things up. Nash's best 3 year consecutive run is the last 3 years which he has averaged a remarkably average 16-10. I started looking at other guys best years and seeing how they stacked up. Numbers wise nash isnt top 15. You could argue impact on the game though since ALL of his value is offensive i would say that the vast (like say 99.8%) of his impact is felt through stats. I dont know what i have to say to get it through some of your heads that the other 10 great years stockton had have no bearing on this list. Overall for career i would rank him 4th behind magic, big O and isiah. But he never really had a peak that was above the rest of his career as most others did so this list being about people at their best hurts him alot.

nah-vit-ski · 07-13-2006, 12:55 PM

what about Mr. Clutch, Jerry West?

Five-ofan · 07-13-2006, 01:18 PM

i thought he was a 2 otherwise he would be on this list.

V2M · 07-13-2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The reason for this thread was when someone mentioned in another thread that nash's last two years were as good as anyone other than maybe magic as a pg in the history of the nba. I decided to look some things up. Nash's best 3 year consecutive run is the last 3 years which he has averaged a remarkably average 16-10. I started looking at other guys best years and seeing how they stacked up. Numbers wise nash isnt top 15. You could argue impact on the game though since ALL of his value is offensive i would say that the vast (like say 99.8%) of his impact is felt through stats. I dont know what i have to say to get it through some of your heads that the other 10 great years stockton had have no bearing on this list. Overall for career i would rank him 4th behind magic, big O and isiah. But he never really had a peak that was above the rest of his career as most others did so this list being about people at their best hurts him alot.

Good work, 5-0! Can you breakdown the stats to see how Nash's last 2 yrs compare to others' best 2 back-to-back years?

Five-ofan · 07-13-2006, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V2M

Good work, 5-0! Can you breakdown the stats to see how Nash's last 2 yrs compare to others' best 2 back-to-back years?

The numbers posted are for best either 3 or 4 years runs but sure why not(im bored anyway) I will look up some numbers. Im not gonna rank them again im just gonna list the ones that i feel are better than nash's and nash's. I havent looked this up yet but based on what i saw yesterday i will be surprised if i cant find 20 pgs who have had better back 2 back years. BTW on the payton vs Kidd debate without looking up head 2 head numbers, when they were both in their prime i remember payton ALWAYS killing kidd.

V2M · 07-13-2006, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The numbers posted are for best either 3 or 4 years runs but sure why not(im bored anyway) I will look up some numbers. Im not gonna rank them again im just gonna list the ones that i feel are better than nash's and nash's. I havent looked this up yet but based on what i saw yesterday i will be surprised if i cant find 20 pgs who have had better back 2 back years. BTW on the payton vs Kidd debate without looking up head 2 head numbers, when they were both in their prime i remember payton ALWAYS killing kidd.

Sorry... DP!

V2M · 07-13-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The numbers posted are for best either 3 or 4 years runs but sure why not(im bored anyway) I will look up some numbers. Im not gonna rank them again im just gonna list the ones that i feel are better than nash's and nash's. I havent looked this up yet but based on what i saw yesterday i will be surprised if i cant find 20 pgs who have had better back 2 back years. BTW on the payton vs Kidd debate without looking up head 2 head numbers, when they were both in their prime i remember payton ALWAYS killing kidd.

Thx. Reason I was asking for 2 years obviously is 'cuz I know Nash wasn't as good (he didn't make the all-star team!) in his final year with us and that may be diluting his 3yr average.

Speaking of Payton always killing Kidd, hasn't Nash always killed Kidd in their head 2 heads.

Five-ofan · 07-13-2006, 02:35 PM

To begin Im gonna post Nash's "mvp" seasons numbers as that will be the baseline for anyone else i post. anyone who hasnt had better back to back seasons will not be posted. This time im gonna do it in more of a table format so dont think that one being above someone else means i am ranking them higher, its just the order i am listing them. Nash will be first so I can see who is better easier(hopefully you will be able to as well.) These will be over 2 year runs. So i doubt seriously anyone will have actually averaged exactly what they do over the 2 years for one season on its own. If a category is left blank than it wasnt a stat yet.

Player -------- PPG -- APG --- RPG -- SPG -- BPG-- TOPG -- FG%-- FT%-- 3pt%
Nash(05,06) 17.23 10.95 3.78 0.88 0.12 3.38 50.76 90.52 43.57

Big O(61-62) 30.65 10.59 11.34 -.-- -.-- -.-- 47.57 81.21 -.--

Magic(89-90) 22.40 12.15 7.24 1.73 .36 3.85 49.45 90.00 35.56

Isiah(84-85) 21.28 12.50 4.22 2.40 .36 3.74 46.01 77.00 28.65

KJ(90-91) 22.50 10.85 3.61 1.72 .17 3.55 50.74 84.02 20.00

Tiny(72-73) 31.18 10.33 2.85 -.-- -.-- -.-- 48.71 83.39 -.--

Gp(00-01) 23.63 8.53 5.53 1.74 .27 2.70 45.20 74.90 35.23

For now i need to go and this is as far as i got. i will edit it either later today or tommorow to include at least 15 guys if there are that many who are better. I can however tell you with complete and utter certainity at this time that Walt frazier, Fat lever, Tim hardaway, and john stockton had better consecutive statistical seasons than nashs last 2. Cousy did too but his % makes it arguable. BTW On KJ he only took 85 3s over the entire two year period.

I havent included any combo guys yet with the possible exception of the Big O. So far these 6 have had easily a better 2 year run than steve nash. Unfortunately im hungry and im not gonna skip a meal to continue looking this up so we shall have to wait.

sike · 07-13-2006, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V2M

Thx. Reason I was asking for 2 years obviously is 'cuz I know Nash wasn't as good (he didn't make the all-star team!) in his final year with us and that may be diluting his 3yr average.

Speaking of Payton always killing Kidd, hasn't Nash always killed Kidd in their head 2 heads.

and hasn't Bibbly always killed nash....wow...Bibby is a better point guard than Nash and Kidd then...sheesh.