Josh Edgy About Contract Status - Mike Fisher / DallasBasketball.com - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

sike · 10-09-2006, 10:59 PM

it is just me...or is it hard to listen to a guy who spells it "Xpert"?

I guess Pip was more important than MJ? and Worthy more than Magic...and McKale more so than Bird, and so on...I mean...they all did the little things...they all benefited greatly from playing with such an amazing player...so they must be more "important" right?...I mean...they did the dirty work!!!

please.

I am now dumber for reading the last serveral posts.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:01 PM

Sike you're talking MVP talk duh!!! You need a refresher course in Basketball 501 it sounds like!

sike · 10-09-2006, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Sike you're talking MVP talk duh!!! You need a refresher course in Basketball 501 it sounds like!

I'm sorry...I just simply know too much basketball to break it down into classifications

I love Josh...and would even argue that he is the second most important player on the team...but what he brings just simply cannot compare the first team all NBA greatness of Dirk...in any arena, any classification, or discussion.

chumdawg · 10-09-2006, 11:05 PM

Wow, this has turned into an interesting discussion!

I think I get creditx's point. It's not that Howard is a better basketball player than Dirk. It's not that you would trade Dirk for Howard, straight up. Not at all.

What it IS is a very real phenomenon that makes a difference in every game and in every playoff series. Namely, every team at that level has a "top" guy, and those guys are usually so good that they tend to be wash with the other team's top guy. Where the games and series are won and lost are actually at the second level, or even the third or fourth.

For example, there are only a handful of guys as good as a Garnett or an AI. But when those guys don't have a Pippen-esque sidekick, their teams are easily exploited. But when they DO have that sidekick, both players' talents come to the fore.

We saw this firsthand in our two tilts with Phoenix the last two years. The first time around, we could take our pick of who we wanted to take out of the game, Nash or STAT. And we generally did pretty well with our choice. But the other guy just flat shredded us. Then this last year, Nash didn't have that second fiddle, and the Suns succumbed to us without incident.

All the attention goes to guys at the top of the roster. But the margins are so thin, relatively speaking, at the top that in many cases it's a wash. It's the lower positions where teams gain advantages.

That being said, would you, CreditExpert, please fill us in on some things? You throw out this term, "Basketball 501," on several occasions, and you seem to attempt to demean the people here for not knowing what it means. At the same time, you indicate that you have played pro ball. Well, I've been following basketball for about twenty years, and I consider myself a fairly knowledgeable fan, but this is the first time I have ever heard the term "Basketball 501." So would you please let us non-insiders in on what it means?

I'm sure we would all also be interested in hearing about your basketball career. If you came here looking for other guys who played pro ball, I'm afraid you came to the wrong place. But your insights are highly welcome--to me, anyway--and I'd like to know about where you are coming from.

Thanks for the help. By the way, I live just down the street from Kurt Thomas. You think he can tell me what "Basketball 501" means? I'll see if I can ask him.

sike · 10-09-2006, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

For example, there are only a handful of guys as good as a Garnett or an AI. But when those guys don't have a Pippen-esque sidekick, their teams are easily exploited. But when they DO have that sidekick, both players' talents come to the fore.

We saw this firsthand in our two tilts with Phoenix the last two years. The first time around, we could take our pick of who we wanted to take out of the game, Nash or STAT. And we generally did pretty well with our choice. But the other guy just flat shredded us. Then this last year, Nash didn't have that second fiddle, and the Suns succumbed to us without incident.

All the attention goes to guys at the top of the roster. But the margins are so thin, relatively speaking, at the top that in many cases it's a wash. It's the lower positions where teams gain advantages.

if the argument were: "The overall better stocked team will usually win", then I think we all agree...but to say that Josh is more important than Dirk in any sense other than guarding and playing the 2-3 position is rediculous.

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Wow, this has turned into an interesting discussion!

I think I get creditx's point. It's not that Howard is a better basketball player than Dirk. It's not that you would trade Dirk for Howard, straight up. Not at all.

What it IS is a very real phenomenon that makes a difference in every game and in every playoff series. Namely, every team at that level has a "top" guy, and those guys are usually so good that they tend to be wash with the other team's top guy. Where the games and series are won and lost are actually at the second level, or even the third or fourth.

For example, there are only a handful of guys as good as a Garnett or an AI. But when those guys don't have a Pippen-esque sidekick, their teams are easily exploited. But when they DO have that sidekick, both players' talents come to the fore.

We saw this firsthand in our two tilts with Phoenix the last two years. The first time around, we could take our pick of who we wanted to take out of the game, Nash or STAT. And we generally did pretty well with our choice. But the other guy just flat shredded us. Then this last year, Nash didn't have that second fiddle, and the Suns succumbed to us without incident.

All the attention goes to guys at the top of the roster. But the margins are so thin, relatively speaking, at the top that in many cases it's a wash. It's the lower positions where teams gain advantages.

That being said, would you, CreditExpert, please fill us in on some things? You throw out this term, "Basketball 501," on several occasions, and you seem to attempt to demean the people here for not knowing what it means. At the same time, you indicate that you have played pro ball. Well, I've been following basketball for about twenty years, and I consider myself a fairly knowledgeable fan, but this is the first time I have ever heard the term "Basketball 501." So would you please let us non-insiders in on what it means?

I'm sure we would all also be interested in hearing about your basketball career. If you came here looking for other guys who played pro ball, I'm afraid you came to the wrong place. But your insights are highly welcome--to me, anyway--and I'd like to know about where you are coming from.

Thanks for the help. By the way, I live just down the street from Kurt Thomas. You think he can tell me what "Basketball 501" means? I'll see if I can ask him.

You explained it 100%. Thanks for taking the time to look through what I was trying to say. Basktball 501, is kinda like looking at college courses from freshmen to senior year. In the early years most beginner classes start at 101, then 201 on forward. NBA is the highest level, which is usually 501 classes in college. Like Basketball 101 is the basics.

You got my point exactly. Most of the time Superstars cancel out each other in a game or series. The second guy actually becomes the most important guy because he is the true X-factor. If we look at the SA/Mavs playoff series, it went down the third choice for each time. Duncan/Dirk canceled each other out, Howard/Ginboli canceled each other. It left Terry/Parker, and Terry won that battle with a combination of Harris included.

Dirkadirkastan · 10-09-2006, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

You explained it 100%. Thanks for taking the time to look through what I was trying to say. Basktball 501, is kinda like looking at college courses from freshmen to senior year. In the early years most beginner classes start at 101, then 201 on forward. NBA is the highest level, which is usually 501 classes in college. Like Basketball 101 is the basics.

You got my point exactly. Most of the time Superstars cancel out each other in a game or series. The second guy actually becomes the most important guy because he is the true X-factor. If we look at the SA/Mavs playoff series, it went down the third choice for each time. Duncan/Dirk canceled each other out, Howard/Ginboli canceled each other. It left Terry/Parker, and Terry won that battle with a combination of Harris included.

Yes, that's the term everybody else uses for that. X-factor. But where fluid and I were got lost was when Dirk and Josh were being compared. That's much different than a discussion about matchups.

Five-ofan · 10-09-2006, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

You explained it 100%. Thanks for taking the time to look through what I was trying to say. Basktball 501, is kinda like looking at college courses from freshmen to senior year. In the early years most beginner classes start at 101, then 201 on forward. NBA is the highest level, which is usually 501 classes in college. Like Basketball 101 is the basics.

You got my point exactly. Most of the time Superstars cancel out each other in a game or series. The second guy actually becomes the most important guy because he is the true X-factor. If we look at the SA/Mavs playoff series, it went down the third choice for each time. Duncan/Dirk canceled each other out, Howard/Ginboli canceled each other. It left Terry/Parker, and Terry won that battle with a combination of Harris included.

i understand what your saying but you just chose a horrible term to describe it. No matter how you slice it, what you described is not the most important player. It could be an x factor or something along those lines BUT its just not most important.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:10 PM

Chum I understand that Josh was a huge part of our finals run last year, and we need him to do well if we want to get back.

What I DONT agree with is the idea that "Josh is more important than Dirk." I'm fine with saying: Besides Dirk, Josh Howard is the most important player on the Mavs. To say it in comparison with the superstar just makes it sound rediculous.

Without Josh backing him up, Dirk might not win a Finals.
Without Dirk leading him, Josh will never make the Finals.

Dirk is high and above on the list of Most Important, Most Valuable, Most Coolest German Ever, Most whatever... Josh can be a close second on all those... Don't think he's German though.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:18 PM

sooo... you're saying the MVP is more important than the MIP?

uhh

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:20 PM

Dirkadirka... I keep thinking that must be what he means, but then he keeps comparing Dirks defensive stats with Howards. Makes no sense to compare their stats if they aren't being compared.

I'm going to chalk this down as idiocy and move on.

Credit: Just know that it sounds stupid when you use the title (Most Important Player) when describing the second most important player on the team, then expect people to "get it".

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Dirkadirka... I keep thinking that must be what he means, but then he keeps comparing Dirks defensive stats with Howards. Makes no sense to compare their stats if they aren't being compared.

I'm going to chalk this down as idiocy and move on.

Credit: Just know that it sounds stupid when you use the title (Most Important Player) when describing the second most important player on the team, then expect people to "get it".

If you noticed I always brought defense into it. Dirk was never considered, but you all wanted to bring him into it, so I tried to explain why, but I failed to get my point across until chumdawg broke down what I was saying.

Dirkadirka: Just know that it sounds dumber for you to compare Dirk and Howard for MVP. Better yet to even discuss it in that way. Lastly you all brought up the stat part, I just went along with it for your sakes. For the record, Superstars from each team cancels out each other..Remember that....

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

If you noticed I always brought defense into it. Dirk was never considered, but you all wanted to bring him into it, so I tried to explain why, but I failed to get my point across until chumdawg broke down what I was saying.

Dirkadirka: Just know that it sounds dumber for you to compare Dirk and Howard for MVP. Better yet to even discuss it in that way. Lastly you all brought up the stat part, I just went along with it for your sakes. For the record, Superstars from each team cancels out each other..Remember that....

And that whole "Superstars cancel each other out" crap is so bogus.

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

And that whole "Superstars cancel each other out" crap is so bogus.

Just like their is no Star treatment in the NBA..Thats bogus as well right? Ask ANY nba player if the Mavs deserved the nba title this past season. Most of the time, not all of the time, but Superstars usually cancel each other out, and the involvement of the rest of the players is the most important aspect to the final outcome. Then sometimes you get the Dirk/T-Mac match-up and they just put on a special show and it comes down to just them.

Drbio · 10-09-2006, 11:33 PM

I wish credit would answer chums question completely. Credit implies that he either played pro ball or is more knowledgable for some intangible factor which is more than likely bunk. So.....you have some splainin' to do Lucy.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:35 PM

Basketball 501 is the stupidest, elitest thing I've seen someone post in awhile. Besides, you'd think someone knowledgeable in 501 would be familiar with the common useage of the term "X-Factor".

Where did you play your professional ball credit?

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-09-2006, 11:36 PM

Don't you just love when newbies come in and act like they know everything when they really know nothing?

Drbio · 10-09-2006, 11:38 PM

You know credit...it might help your cause if you didn't come here from a weak ass now defunct site and automatically expect others to be lectured to by you. You should probably cool the jets, try to take a more tactful conversational tone and stop with the pompous ass schtick.

Just a thought.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:40 PM

doublepost***

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-09-2006, 11:40 PM

I get what you are saying credit, but it still doesn't make much sense. Howard is the X-Facotr, but he isn't the most important player. The most important player=a player that cant be replaced and is vital to a team's success. Dirk is easily our MVP as well as our "MIP" but Howard is the X-factor.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:47 PM

So I could trade Dirk for AI straight up, and we'd have the exact same chance to win a Ring cause we'd still have a "superstar"?

and

where
did
you
play
your
pro
ball
idiot

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-09-2006, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

and

where
did
you
play
your
pro
ball
idiot

Lol for the third time

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

So I could trade Dirk for AI straight up, and we'd have the exact same chance to win a Ring cause we'd still have a "superstar"?

and

where
did
you
play
your
pro
ball
idiot

And where do you work and what is your title?

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

And where do you work and what is your title?

You tried to establish credibility by saying you were a pro baller. You proving that has to do with what we're talking about, my job has nothing to do with basketball at all so I don't think it matters.

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

You tried to establish credibility by saying you were a pro baller. You proving that has to do with what we're talking about, my job has nothing to do with basketball at all so I don't think it matters.

Point is that it was a question posed to you. Just as you feel your job has nothing to do with this. Where I played has nothing to do with it as well.

So, where do you work and what is your title? Third time I posed this question. Hopfully, you get the point now...Dont worry about where I played!!!!!!

Five-ofan · 10-10-2006, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Point is that it was a question posed to you. Just as you feel your job has nothing to do with this. Where I played has nothing to do with it as well.

So, where do you work and what is your title? Third time I posed this question. Hopfully, you get the point now...Dont worry about where I played!!!!!!

no one is "worried about where you played" Its just that when you bring something up as a means for your credibility which the pro ball mention clearly was, you shouldnt be this defensive about it. If you didnt want it brought up fine, we generally dont ask what everyone does for a living or what their title is but you brought up your job yourself.

creditXpert2003 · 10-09-2006, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

So I could trade Dirk for AI straight up, and we'd have the exact same chance to win a Ring cause we'd still have a "superstar"?

and

where
did
you
play
your
pro
ball
idiot

This statement above would fit your description as stupid right? Or is it that since your buddy posted it, it makes it fine...Now I see the trend with two of you. You work together. Have you not noticed that I dont reply to certain posters who blurt out craziness every time they post. I dont even have to say any names.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:52 PM

Forgetting to tap a letter twice is a lot different than misusing and misspelling word after word.

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:56 PM

You already quoted and responded to that, and no one has referred to it since. Are you talking to yourself?

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:59 PM

Obviously you didn't play anywhere, that was my point.

creditXpert2003 · 10-10-2006, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Obviously you didn't play anywhere, that was my point.

Then you have your answer that you need. I can just about tell a person's age from their post. Just like I can tell who is still in school and who is in a stable career. There was only one person that took the time to sort through and use logic in the end to bridge the gap in our conversation. I would bet that chumdawg is mature minded and has been around life a while. Those that post back sharping like a couple of others, still have alot to learn in life, and have not figured out life yet. All they know how to do is defend and throw mud.

What a tragic situation. Have fun in school. Go to bed and get to class in the morning young fellows, the world awaits you!!!!

fluid.forty.one · 10-09-2006, 11:59 PM

By the way I'm in College so I'm not sure how you want me to answer that.

fluid.forty.one · 10-10-2006, 12:03 AM

He wasn't the one who questioned your spelling you moron. You have the logic of a monkey.

And yes you did say you were a pro baller as a means to place yourself above everyone else. You obviously didn't play pro ball, you obviously are a huge idiot, and I hope you never post here again. I hope someone provokes you into going off so we can get a perma ban or something.

creditXpert2003 · 10-10-2006, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

He wasn't the one who questioned your spelling you moron. You have the logic of a monkey.

And yes you did say you were a pro baller as a means to place yourself above everyone else. You obviously didn't play pro ball, you obviously are a huge idiot, and I hope you never post here again. I hope someone provokes you into going off so we can get a perma ban or something.

You been here since May kid....I am a grown man, nothing you can say or do will cause me to leave. Hopefully, you decide to never reply to any of my posts. Take it or leave it, but you will see alot of my posts. World does not evolve around you or anyone else here. This is a Mavs message board, and I am a Mavs fan. My reference to basketball 501 is normal talk to me. You took it as negative. Since I am a huge idiot dont reply to my posts.

That sounds to me to be a good protest against my posts. Stay on the porch lil fellow. Lastly, do you know how smart a monkey is? Of course you don't, because you would not had let that come out of your lil mouth.

Drbio · 10-10-2006, 12:04 AM

*sigh*

The ghey is strong with this one.

Tokey41 · 10-10-2006, 12:07 AM

I dont get that argument at all for several reasons...

Josh is only slightly better as a defender than Dirk by my estimation so when you say hes better because hes a more balanced player on offense and defense thats just a load of crap. Dirk beats the hell out of Jho in almost every statistical category doesnt he? Yes, that includes defensive stats. I expect even more D from Dirk this season too, he might even surpass Jho defensively.

Dirk is FAR more crucial to the success of the Mavericks, we were lucky he wasnt out at all last season and what did we get? A lot of wins, thats what. Take him for even half the season out and replace him with friggin Croshere? Yeah we're going to win around 42-49 i'd say.

Dirk is a top 5 (at least) player in the league and no one is questioning that, so you are simply contradicting yourself when you say Jho is more crucial to the Mavs success... your right, hes an X-factor but thats all he is. As a matter of fact an argument could be made that TERRY is more crucial to the Mavs success (I dont believe in it, but I think you could make a case).

Do you know what the MVP award means? It means the player who wins it was critical in the success his team had in the season. Dirk was third two years straight and a lot of folks feel he was screwed this year. When you say MIP, MVP, whatever its all the same damn thing because it symbolizes a player who IS indispensible to his team. Think about it.

And going WAY back... Joe Johnson is highly overated by certain people on these boards... but he is still better than Josh, I would think that much is obvious. Peja is a different story, you have an argument there... I would take Jho right since he has way better d and will get better in time (youth is a factor as always).

fluid.forty.one · 10-10-2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

I dont get that argument at all for several reasons...

Josh is only slightly better as a defender than Dirk by my estimation so when you say hes better because hes a more balanced player on offense and defense thats just a load of crap. Dirk beats the hell out of Jho in almost every statistical category doesnt he? Yes, that includes defensive stats. I expect even more D from Dirk this season too, he might even surpass Jho defensively.

Dirk is FAR more crucial to the success of the Mavericks, we were lucky he wasnt out at all last season and what did we get? A lot of wins, thats what. Take him for even half the season out and replace him with friggin Croshere? Yeah we're going to win around 42-49 i'd say.

Dirk is a top 5 (at least) player in the league and no one is questioning that, so you are simply contradicting yourself when you say Jho is more crucial to the Mavs success... your right, hes an X-factor but thats all he is. As a matter of fact an argument could be made that TERRY is more crucial to the Mavs success (I dont believe in it, but I think you could make a case).

Do you know what the MVP award means? It means the player who wins it was critical in the success his team had in the season. Dirk was third two years straight and a lot of folks feel he was screwed this year. When you say MIP, MVP, whatever its all the same damn thing because it symbolizes a player who IS indispensible to his team. Think about it.

And going WAY back... Joe Johnson is highly overated by certain people on these boards... but he is still better than Josh, I would think that much is obvious. Peja is a different story, you have an argument there... I would take Jho right since he has way better d and will get better in time (youth is a factor as always).

Apparently (even though he compared the two) he meant OTHER than Dirk. I guess we were suppose to "get" that.

fluid.forty.one · 10-10-2006, 12:10 AM

For your sake I hope you're some dumb kid "trolling" from their room. If you are older than 26 and still writing this incoherently, then I take pity on your offspring.

creditXpert2003 · 10-10-2006, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

For your sake I hope you're some dumb kid "trolling" from their room. If you are older than 26 and still writing this incoherently, then I take pity on your offspring.

I cant even remember 26. Keep "Offspring" out of your mouth. I did not bring your parents into this at all, so keep your remarks to me or about me.......

Five-ofan · 10-10-2006, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

I cant even remember 26. Keep "Offspring" out of your mouth. I did not bring your parents into this at all, so keep your remarks to me or about me.......

you realize that your offspring and your parents arent even remotely the same thing right???