The 2003 NBA Draft revisited

[dirno2000]

Top name is the actual player drafted, bottom name is the player that should have been drafted in the opinion of ESPN stats guru John Hollinger


1) Cleveland
LeBron James
LeBron James Yes, Dwyane Wade had a very strong playoff performance, but let's get real. LeBron had a far better regular season than Wade, is two years younger, and is a guaranteed home run at the box office. Other than Kevin Garnett in 1995, he was the easiest No. 1 "do-over" pick of the past decade.

2) Detroit
Darko Milicic
Dwyane Wade It's crazy to think that Detroit won a championship in 2004, even though the Pistons passed on Wade and instead took a total non-factor in Milicic. Of course, if Wade were a Piston he may still be sitting at the end of the bench, waiting for a chance to play … kind of like he, James, Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire did at the Olympics.

3) Denver
Carmelo Anthony
Carmelo Anthony After a blazing hot rookie year, Anthony had something of a sophomore slump, but his scoring output from his first two seasons still is very impressive. That's especially true considering he entered the league as a teenager and would only be entering his senior year of college had he stayed in school.

4) Toronto
Chris Bosh
Chris Bosh Fans up north still are waiting for Bosh to add some upper body strength, but the rest of the package is in place. Bosh drew comparisons to both Kevin Garnett and Joe Smith when he was picked, and his career value seems destined to end up about halfway between his two wiry predecessors.

5) Miami
Dwyane Wade
Michael Sweetney Sweetney's name might surprise some, but he has a career PER of 16.6 and would have been starting much earlier on a team with more foresight than the Knicks. Right now he's a poor man's Zach Randolph, and still is young enough to take some steps forward.

6) L.A. Clippers
Chris Kaman
Marquis Daniels As an undrafted rookie, Daniels had the highest PER of any player from this distinguished class – better than LeBron, Carmelo or Wade. But he's older than those three, and his second pro season was mostly a wash thanks to a nagging ankle injury.

7) Chicago
Kirk Hinrich
Kirk Hinrich Hinrich's ranking might surprise some who would expect him to be No. 5, but his output has been more steady than spectacular. He's a good defender and runs the point well, but his career 39.2 percent shooting leaves a lot to be desired and he rarely gets to the basket.

8) Milwaukee
T.J. Ford
Josh Howard Dallas scored a major coup in the 2003 draft, grabbing the class's best defender in Howard with the 29th pick and then signing the undrafted Daniels soon after. The mystery is how the other 28 teams missed on those two – both played for four years at major programs and were their college team's star players.

9) New York
Michael Sweetney
Travis Outlaw The secret isn't out about Outlaw yet, but it will be soon. The 6-foot-9 wingman's per-40-minute production is too good to ignore – 16.1 points, 49.8 percent shooting, 2.0 blocks – and he's still only 20 years old. He could start as soon as this year, and once his jumper gets more consistent he'll be one of the league's better small forwards.

10) Washington
Jarvis Hayes
Darko Milicic I may have him way too high, or way too low. Based on production, Milicic is about the worst player in this draft. But so many general managers are still high on him that it's safe to say he'd be a lottery pick if the draft were held today, and watching him flick in 3-pointers during practices at the Finals made it easy to see why.

11) Golden State
Mickael Pietrus
Mickael Pietrus Golden State's 11th pick ends up with … Golden State. The French import has shown flashes at both ends, but still hasn't put it together for a full season, or even a full week. It would help if he could improve his shooting percentages – 42.3 percent from the field, 34 percent from the arc and 69.7 percent from the line – because he's athletic enough to become a defensive stopper.

12) Seattle
Nick Collison
Luke Ridnour Ridnour has proven he can run the point and can defend the position reasonably well, but he's surprisingly ineffective as a scorer. The Sonics' guard shot 40.8 percent over his first two seasons despite getting numerous open looks in Seattle's offensive machine.

13) Memphis
Marcus Banks
Nick Collison He's harder to evaluate because he only played one full season, having missed his rookie campaign with two bad shoulders. However, Collison shot 53.7 percent, rebounded well and held his own defensively, so if he can cut down on the rampant fouling (nearly one every five minutes) he should be a quality power forward.

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[birdsanctuary]

How did we get Daniels and Howard, players who played 4 years of college?

Stupidity! Half the general managers in the NBA don't know what the hell they are doing!

Watch out in the Draft for:
1.Jerry West
2. Geoff Petrie
3. Don Nelson
4. That guy who drafted Ginobli, Parker, and Udrih for SA...whatever the hell his name is?

[The Miles]

RC Buford

[Thespiralgoeson]

I think it's pretty funny that he has Marquis, who had a good stretch of games last year, over Josh, who's proven that he can be a productive NBA starter on a team that won 58 games.

[grndmstr_c]

Hollinger was really high on Quis after that first year, I remember (Quis' PER for that whole season was an extremely good 20.11, behind only Ray Allen, Kobe, and TMac, among guys who played the 2/3). He obviously thinks that wasn't a fluke. I still don't see how you could possibly not have Josh ranked higher after last year. Injury and PER aside, Josh has had the better career.

[Pirate]

If the Mavs think Marquis rookie year was typical of his talent more than the injury-laden 2nd year, then they have to view him as a future star, making Finley very much in the way. I suspect summer league will be very informative as to what is the real prognosis for the future - if Marquis does NOT light it up against that level, I'd be worried as hell if I was the Mavs.

[foglemann]

Originally posted by: Pirate
If the Mavs think Marquis rookie year was typical of his talent more than the injury-laden 2nd year, then they have to view him as a future star, making Finley very much in the way. I suspect summer league will be very informative as to what is the real prognosis for the future - if Marquis does NOT light it up against that level, I'd be worried as hell if I was the Mavs.

I think its a certainty that he will. A healthy, hungry Quis will dominate the Summer League. He dominated Earl Watson before he signed with us two years ago. I think it was like 38/8/9 in the Utah league and the other games he showed that he could do it all. I have total confidence in him, its funny how great he looked a year ago and now, since he was hurt, people are in total question of whether he can even play.

[Stressboy]

His jumper looked like crap from day 1 and still does. Now that Nellie is not around, we are no longer running our offense through him so his numbers will drop. I would love for him to be a tall point, but he has shown little open court vision, though I think in half court sets he is great. But if you can't hit the open 3 or 20 footer, then he is a liability many times. Let's hope he is doing 2000 jump shots a day.

[foglemann]

Originally posted by: Stressboy
His jumper looked like crap from day 1 and still does. Now that Nellie is not around, we are no longer running our offense through him so his numbers will drop. I would love for him to be a tall point, but he has shown little open court vision, though I think in half court sets he is great. But if you can't hit the open 3 or 20 footer, then he is a liability many times. Let's hope he is doing 2000 jump shots a day.

I'm so confused with this whole shooting thing. A two year player in this league, who essentually has played about 50 realtime games heavy minutes is now and never will be able to shoot? Was Finley a 40% 3pt. shooter when he was a two year player out of school? Was he buried behind a vet. that has avg. 35 minutes for the last 6 years at his position in Phx.? These are all rediculous expectations for my boy Quis which he shouldn't have to live up to. Quis does more and then some, he's not yet capable of hitting a consistent 3, big deal, why does everyone on the team have to hit a 3. This is not Nellie ball. Jet, Dirk, KVH, Stack, and Josh are now capable of hitting three's. Do we need everyone on this damn team to hit them. How many three point shooters does Detroit have or San Antonio have? Let the kid grow up, he's had such little time for him to be put down so much.

[alby]

Very good.

[Nash13]

Completely agree with foglemann. Imho, i think Quis should start in front of Finley. B/c team's are going to have to respect his ability to dribble to the basket, thereby leaving Howard or Terry open enough to hit a mid-range or 3.

[dirk2003]

Howard is nowhere close to being a 3point threat. I would leave him open every time.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: foglemannwhy does everyone on the team have to hit a 3. This is not Nellie ball. Jet, Dirk, KVH, Stack, and Josh are now capable of hitting three's. Do we need everyone on this damn team to hit them.

No, we don't need everyone to hit them, but I think our starting shooting guard should be able to hit the open 3. No, this is not Nellie ball, so Dirk will probably be taking the 3 a whole lot less. KVH probably won't be on the team after next year. And yes, Jet, Dirk, and KVH can all hit the 3 but Josh and Stack? They're as bad or worse than Marquis is behind the arc.

[alby]

If there is no Finley, Dirk will shoot more from outside. Trust me.

[Nash13]

Originally posted by: dirk2003
Howard is nowhere close to being a 3point threat. I would leave him open every time.

Pheonix did that, and he started hitting shots. After Game 1, either Howard or Avery realized Pheonix, as they did in the SA series, will leave the worst shooters open and make them make shots. So Howard made the extra effort to shoot better.

[vinylstar]

Originally posted by: foglemann
....Josh are now capable of hitting three's.

slow down hotrod. not so much.

josh's jumpshot looks like a two-handed chest pass, and that's why his fg% beyond 10 feet is so horrible.

i think if finley is let go or has a serious reduction in minutes, the mavs are going to need someone who can shoot 38%-40% from three on the floor who isn't dirk. like someone said, hopefully marquis is shooting 20+ footers all day everyday.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: Nash13

Pheonix did that, and he started hitting shots. After Game 1, either Howard or Avery realized Pheonix, as they did in the SA series, will leave the worst shooters open and make them make shots. So Howard made the extra effort to shoot better.

Geez man, check a stat will ya'. He shot 25% from 3pt land in the playoffs.

[mary]

Originally posted by: alby
If there is no Finley, Dirk will shoot more from outside. Trust me.

Avery Johnson may have something to say about that....and he likes his PF's playing closer to the basket. Dirk will still be out on the perimeter...but based on what we saw in Avery's tenure this year, Dirk will be shooting LESS from the perimeter and not more. AJ's not going to change that becuase of Fin's departure. But that's just my opinion as a casual observer....so I'll leave out the "Trust Me", because like you, I'm just making an educated guess.

[mary]

Originally posted by: Nash13
Completely agree with foglemann. Imho, i think Quis should start in front of Finley. B/c team's are going to have to respect his ability to dribble to the basket, thereby leaving Howard or Terry open enough to hit a mid-range or 3.

Can someone please remind what exactly Marquis Daniels has done to EARN a spot in the starting rotation?????

If there were a Bad Decision Per 48 minutes stat, I'm also certain Daniels would've led the league.

[Nash13]

Originally posted by: dude1394

Geez man, check a stat will ya'. He shot 25% from 3pt land in the playoffs.

You know what, you're right, i'm wrong. He did shoot 25%, but on 8 3pt attempts. So when Pheonix left him open, it was mid-range, where he shot 51%.

Can someone please remind what exactly Marquis Daniels has done to EARN a spot in the starting rotation?????

If there were a Bad Decision Per 48 minutes stat, I'm also certain Daniels would've led the league.

He may not have done anything to earn it, but then again, neither has Finley. And Avery wanted Finley to be benched to. So who do you want to start? Or better yet, who would you rather come off the bench with Finley if he stays? Daniels or Stackhouse?

[grndmstr_c]

He may not have done anything to earn it, but then again, neither has Finley. And Avery wanted Finley to be benched to. So who do you want to start? Or better yet, who would you rather come off the bench with Finley if he stays? Daniels or Stackhouse?

What? Finley's never done anything to earn a spot in the starting rotation?

[LRB]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

What? Finley's never done anything to earn a spot in the starting rotation?

Kind of over the top? I guess Fin would be lucky to be the 12 man on most teams, but he started here in dallas because he has pictures of Cuban in bed with ....

[Nash13]

What? Finley's never done anything to earn a spot in the starting rotation?

You know what i mean. Up until last year, Finley's always deserved to be the starter. Last offseason when we got Stack, it was pre-determined that Stackhouse was going to be the sixth man. And if i remember correctly, Daniels sat out training camp with the bad ankle. So it's not like Finley did terrible as a starter(15ppg is pretty good), but it's not like he had to compete for it.

[Nash13]

Here's my views on Finley:

I want Finley to stay if Dallas is just going to let him walk. And if he is to stay, i think he should come off the bench. I think we need a sixth man who can actually shoot the ball. Finley would be great in that role. And i feel Daniels should start b/c he's better defensively than Stack and he moves better without the ball.

[grndmstr_c]

You know what i mean. Up until last year, Finley's always deserved to be the starter. Last offseason when we got Stack, it was pre-determined that Stackhouse was going to be the sixth man. And if i remember correctly, Daniels sat out training camp with the bad ankle. So it's not like Finley did terrible as a starter(15ppg is pretty good), but it's not like he had to compete for it.

I hoped I knew what you meant. And Fin deserved to be the starter from training camp, whether there was an open competition for the spot or not.

[LRB]

So in the same vein Dirk hasn't done anything to earn his starting spot either. We could go around the league and name tons of big time names who didn't do anything to earn their starting spots: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, TMac, Yao, etc.

[Nash13]

I hoped I knew what you meant. And Fin deserved to be the starter from training camp, whether there was an open competition for the spot or not.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate or anything. I just feel if Finley always deserved to be there, then Nellie and Avery would've never approached him about coming off the bench. I'm not one of those people who feel that Finley is worthless, i just think it's somebody else's turn to start.

So in the same vein Dirk hasn't done anything to earn his starting spot either. We could go around the league and name tons of big time names who didn't do anything to earn their starting spots: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, TMac, Yao, etc.

Dirk is the best player on our team. And hopefully, he did beat out Alan Henderson in training camp last year for the spot.

[mary]

Originally posted by: mary

Can someone please remind what exactly Marquis Daniels has done to EARN a spot in the starting rotation?????

If there were a Bad Decision Per 48 minutes stat, I'm also certain Daniels would've led the league.

To answer the question, if I have to choose between Stack and Daniels, give me Stack.

I know he has his own set of shortcomings, but that's who I would take out of the two.

[grndmstr_c]

Nash13, Nellie approached him about it in the middle of the season when he was really struggling. A healthy Fin was (IMO still is, we'll have to wait to see if I'm right) the best SG the Mavs had.

[LRB]

Dirk is the best player on our team. And hopefully, he did beat out Alan Henderson in training camp last year for the spot.

Dirk is our best player, but it was still predecided that Dirk would start over all competition before training camp started even more so than Fin being predecided to be the starter. Dirk did earn his starting spot though with play in past years. Fin earned his the same way. This year Fin was the best of the 2 guards in +/- ratings among other things. Meanwhile Marquis had trouble earning PT this year even when he was healthy enough to play. If Fin does stay by some miracle, I think that Stack could probably give him a good run for his money this coming training camp in competition, but last year with Stack being new to the team Fin was most definitely the best choice.

[Nash13]

I remember that grndmstr. And it was also around said time that Daniels was just coming back from the injured list. I don't think Nellie would've approach Finley about being bench unless Daniels came back b/c he wanted Stack to come off the bench no matter what. And when i think back to last offseason, they originally wanted to move Finley up to forward and start Daniels at the 2.

[Nash13]

I see your point LRB. I just think Dallas can get the most out of Daniels if he starts.

[foglemann]

I think people are losing the idea of the agrument. I don't know anyone that WANTS Fin to get cut, just for the sake of it. The real agrument is whether Finley is worth paying 51 Million over the next three years plus the luxury tax and have him put up 15 ppg, with few rebounds and assits or have Stack or Marquis get those minutes and points at half the price?

Marquis is a great player, he must get time to show what he can do. I will guarentee you that if Marquis is given the 35 min. that Finley is always been granted, Quis will better the stats of Finley and then some. I would rather have Quis's 6 made free throws than Fin's two wide open three's a game. And hey, let Quis shoot a few three's and every 1 of 5 will go in. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: foglemann The real agrument is whether Finley is worth paying 51 Million over the next three years plus the luxury tax and have him put up 15 ppg, with few rebounds and assits or have Stack or Marquis get those minutes and points at half the price?

I'd rather pay him 51 million to play for US than pay him 51 million to play for some other team. We don't even know if there is going to be a luxury tax. Not worth the risk if you ask me.

Marquis is a great player, he must get time to show what he can do. I will guarentee you that if Marquis is given the 35 min. that Finley is always been granted, Quis will better the stats of Finley and then some.

I believe in Daniels, too. I honestly wouldn't have a problem with a Quis/Fin rotation. And don't give me this crap about Fin "not accepting" a 6th man role. Michael Finley is not his own coach. AJ is the coach, and he decides who starts and who doesn't. What is Finley going to do if AJ benches him? Revolt? Not show up to practice? Demand a trade? I highly doubt someone as professional as Fin would do any such thing. If anything, he'd play his ass off to get back into the starting lineup.

I would rather have Quis's 6 made free throws than Fin's two wide open three's a game. And hey, let Quis shoot a few three's and every 1 of 5 will go in. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

It's interesting that you mention his FT shooting, because the guy has absolutely stunk it up from the charity stripe. But the bottom line is, we need a 3 pt. shooter in our SG rotation. A Stack/Quis or Quis/Stack rotation is a definite step backwards and will cost us games IMO.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Nash13
I see your point LRB. I just think Dallas can get the most out of Daniels if he starts.

True Daniels will give us the most production if he gets starters minutes instead of backup minutes. However will Dallas be better off than if Fin was still here is the real question. Daniels has 2 big weaknesses. 1) he can't shoot the outside shoot, especially the 3 worth a darn. Teams would have guys run away from him if they could get him to shoot it all day he's so bad. 2) his FT shooting % sucks. This can cost us big in close games and be sure our opponents will know this. Stack is a good FT shooter and will be on the court during the final minutes of games we need to protect the lead with good FT shooting, but it certainly would have been nice to have Fin's FT shooting available as well.

[LordOverseerMaximus]

his FT shooting % sucks.

Career: .749%

No, sorry you are wrong.

BTW, Stacks first 3 years in the league

.747
.766
.782

3 point shooting:

.318
.298
.208 (ouch)


Even last year he only shot .267 from tre land.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: LordOverseerMaximus

Career: .749%

No, sorry you are wrong.

No, he's not wrong. .749 would be great from our center. For a shooting guard, that SUCKS.

[LordOverseerMaximus]

Okay... let's look at it then..

Devin Harris: .757%
Josh Howard: .733%

Guess we are in trouble since everybody wants those guys to start next year.

[alby]

Personally, I hate +/- figures because Finley playing with Dirk, Jet, Jho, Damp better be higher than that of let's say Marquis with Devin, Henderson, KVH, etc.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: LordOverseerMaximus

Career: .749%

No, sorry you are wrong.

BTW, Stacks first 3 years in the league

.747
.766
.782

3 point shooting:

.318
.298
.208 (ouch)


Even last year he only shot .267 from tre land.

Marquis only shot 73.7% last year and in the playoffs he got much worse going to 70.4%. For a 2G in the NBA 73.7% is very poor. Sure he's not Shaq, but then he's not shooting 55+% from the field either.

Stack's 1st 3 years in the league are irrelevant to this argument because Stack is well removed from those years. I will grant that Stack is not a very good 3pt shooter though. Problem is Marquis is much worse than Stack. Which is why I'm upset about letting Fin go for nothing talentwise.