Donnie on with Norm this morning...what the Mavs need - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mary · 06-29-2005, 09:17 AM

I didn't catch the whole thing, just a bit on the way to work this morning.

Donnie said they had interest in the everthing from about the 20th pick and the mid-second round. They probably talked to just about every team, but they either wanted one of our young guys and/or next year's pick - didn't want to sacrifice too much of the Mavs future.

He had no interest in the Lithuanian guy, Skevy - he may not be ready to play for another 3 to 4 years and the Mavs already have Pavel and DJ. He liked the LSU kid. He was very impressed with the pool of players that Texas was able to provide (honestly I wasn't really interested in the draft talk)

He addressed 3 needs that the Mavs will try to fill.

1. An athletic big guy - and he named this one first. Of course, he wasn't going to give Norm names, but he said they need to add some athleticism to the frontline. Norm asked him what was the status of Steven Hunter. Donnie said Hunter will be a FA and will probably be a sought-after guy in the market.

2. If they can't find a way to keep Finley, then they will have a "big hole" to fill. No further elaboration. But if there were any doubt before about the Mavs intentions, you can throw them out the window. Finley is gone.

3. May need a third back up PG, depending on what DA does in free agency.

Edit to add: Oh yeah, I think he mentioned that they "picked up" a couple of guys last night...I'm assuming to invite them to Summer league...didn't catch their names.

The Miles · 06-29-2005, 09:22 AM

madape · 06-29-2005, 09:39 AM

When he mentioned that the guy they were after in the late first was WANYE SIMIEN, I almost puked.

This is DEFINITELY no longer the team I used to love.

HexNBA · 06-29-2005, 09:43 AM

Seeing how I'm Dutch, I sure would love that Miles [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

DubOverdose · 06-29-2005, 09:44 AM

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Originally posted by: madape
When he mentioned that the guy they were after in the late first was WANYE SIMIEN, I almost puked.

This is DEFINITELY no longer the team I used to love.

Simien would have been a great pick up. If he were healthy in college, he would have been a high lottery pick.

TheFlyingGooseman · 06-29-2005, 09:55 AM

why are the mavs trying to be like the phoenix suns. We don't need an athletic big guy. We need defense.

mary · 06-29-2005, 10:17 AM

From Garcia, FWST

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The Mavs locked up Rice guard Michael Harris and Oakland University swingman Rawle Marshall for the summer league team. They're also talking to several free agents, including North Crowley and Kansas graduate Keith Langford, and Texas product Jason Klotz.

MavKikiNYC · 06-29-2005, 10:31 AM

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2. If they can't find a way to keep Finley, then they will have a "big hole" to fill. No further elaboration. But if there were any doubt before about the Mavs intentions, you can throw them out the window. Finley is gone.

Interesting how every media reference to Finley drives home that his departure is a fait accompli.

LRB · 06-29-2005, 10:53 AM

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2. If they can't find a way to keep Finley, then they will have a "big hole" to fill. No further elaboration. But if there were any doubt before about the Mavs intentions, you can throw them out the window. Finley is gone.

It's not like anyone's holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to chunk Fin. Sure it's possible that they can save some doe by axing him, but there may very well be no way to replace his talent in the near future because of salary cap rules. So if the Mavs, not talking about some other hypothetical or real team but the Mavs, can't aquire a replacement for Fin's talent, It will just be Cuban giving up on a championship in order to potentially save some bucks. I just don't like that message.

jayC · 06-29-2005, 11:19 AM

Right Finley is the key to the mavs championship hopes. Is this the same guy that had consecutive sub 10 point games in 40 minutes a game.

If the mavs trade for Paul Pierce or another shooting guard Finley will be a moot point.

LRB · 06-29-2005, 11:41 AM

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Originally posted by: jayC
Right Finley is the key to the mavs championship hopes. Is this the same guy that had consecutive sub 10 point games in 40 minutes a game.

If the mavs trade for Paul Pierce or another shooting guard Finley will be a moot point.

No Fin is not the key, but his talent is definitely part of the puzzle. If we trade for Paul pierce or any other shooting guard we will have to give up talent most likely one of our 2/3's. This will cost us depth. If we had Fin he could provide us the depth needed. Last year we had 4 good 2/3's and at times we were shorthanded at those positions because of injuries. Even if we didn't trade any of our 2/3's to get a top shooting guard we'd still have them as trade ammo to acquire other needed pieces which still having great depth at the 2/3 position.

Now add in the fact that Fin was playing hurt for the latter part of last year, it's highly likely that he'll come back much better this year. Fin was our best 2 guard last year and wasn't even playing at his best.

Bottom line is if we cut Fin we get no talent for that. We can never make up that talent gap. We can make other deals which might bring in great talent. But if we'd kept Fin, those deals would have still been possible and we'd have more talent. This move is moving us away from a championship not towards it.

Now add on to the fact that this move is highly likely to make it much more difficult to get FA's to come here and probably to resign our players when they become FA's.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-29-2005, 12:08 PM

Is Finley not tradeable 2 years down the road? You can dog his play all you want but any player is tradeable with 1 year on their contract left. We release Finley we recieve nothing. That will be 2 years straight of releasing players and not getting anything in return. That trend isn't going to benefit the Mavs.

alby · 06-29-2005, 12:12 PM

Whether the team will save money or not with the release of Michael Finley, don't you think Mark Cuban has all the numbers and all the projected numbers analyzed to the ground already, he definitely has alot more access than any of us can imagine? I am sure Mark Cuban knows what he is doing, if Finley is let go, we will be saving money.

dirno2000 · 06-29-2005, 12:35 PM

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Now add on to the fact that this move is highly likely to make it much more difficult to get FA's to come here and probably to resign our players when they become FA's.

I don't think waiving Finley will hurt our chances of signing FA's anymore than Playstations and fluffy bench chairs helped them. Players know it's a business...if Shaq can be traded anybody's expendable.

FA will still go for money 1st and a chance to win 2nd. PXH is about to trade Quinton Richardson after signing him as a FA just a year ago. Sac traded Webber after he built that team back to respectability...it happens all over the league. If our young guys develop and we continue to win, Dirk will resign...if we're losing he may want to leave but unlike Nash a team will be willing to sing and trade for him.

DevinHarriswillstart · 06-29-2005, 12:44 PM

It's probably that guys like James Posey, Jalen Rose, and Allan Houston will be waived so I dunno why people think we still can't get a decent 2/3 out there. Rose would be a terrific player to bring off of the bench. He's as selfish as they come but he isn't afraid to take big shots at crunch time. I also love his 3 pointers. This is all speculation anyway, but it isn't as if we can NEVER SIGN ANOTHER SHOOTING GUARD! like people are making it out to be.

dirno2000 · 06-29-2005, 12:48 PM

Exactly...two guard is the easiest position in the league to replace.

alby · 06-29-2005, 12:53 PM

Yup, and max contracts should be only given to players such as, Tmac and Kobe. IMO, not even Ray Allen and Redd should be getting max contracts.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-29-2005, 12:54 PM

I doubt the Grizz release Posey over Cardinal or JWill who everyone thinks will be released. Allan Houston is not an upgrade over Finley and i'm sick of seeing his name even mentioned. How can you contend with a guy who can't even start for the Knicks? We might as well just go with Stackhouse and Daniels if they aren't dealt by the time the season starts.

DevinHarriswillstart · 06-29-2005, 01:04 PM

You mean an upgrade over jumping and shooting? Look I don't want to lose FInley for nothing the same as the next person, but the pessimism as if we can't get 13-15 points from another 2/3 player is ridiculous. Anyways I never contended with Allan Houston, I said I wouldn't mind having Rose if you had read that correctly.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-29-2005, 01:12 PM

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Originally posted by: DevinHarriswillstart
You mean an upgrade over jumping and shooting? Look I don't want to lose FInley for nothing the same as the next person, but the pessimism as if we can't get 13-15 points from another 2/3 player is ridiculous. Anyways I never contended with Allan Houston, I said I wouldn't mind having Rose if you had read that correctly.

Well whether its Rose, Houston or whoever, they currently aren't better than what we have right now so why even bother using our mid-levle on them? We already have a clog in that position anyway. Might as well go with Daniels and Stack even though they are inconsistent as hell.

LRB · 06-29-2005, 01:13 PM

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Originally posted by: DevinHarriswillstart
You mean an upgrade over jumping and shooting? Look I don't want to lose FInley for nothing the same as the next person, but the pessimism as if we can't get 13-15 points from another 2/3 player is ridiculous. Anyways I never contended with Allan Houston, I said I wouldn't mind having Rose if you had read that correctly.

It's not just about finding some smuck to score 13 to 15 points for us. It's finding someone who's overall play allows us to score more than our opponents do as well as Finely. Last year there was no one playing the 2 guard who did as well as Fin. Not stack and not Quis. I doubt we get anyone close for the vet minimum either. and if we have to spend the MLE to get it, still doubtful IMO, then we can't use that to land an athletic big man. If we go to trades, then we have to give up talent.

Cutting Fin puts us behind in talent versus keeping him in any realistic scenario. We can always get better in talent, but if we had Fin we could be even better.

LRB · 06-29-2005, 01:16 PM

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Originally posted by: dirno2000

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Now add on to the fact that this move is highly likely to make it much more difficult to get FA's to come here and probably to resign our players when they become FA's.

I don't think waiving Finley will hurt our chances of signing FA's anymore than Playstations and fluffy bench chairs helped them. Players know it's a business...if Shaq can be traded anybody's expendable.

FA will still go for money 1st and a chance to win 2nd. PXH is about to trade Quinton Richardson after signing him as a FA just a year ago. Sac traded Webber after he built that team back to respectability...it happens all over the league. If our young guys develop and we continue to win, Dirk will resign...if we're losing he may want to leave but unlike Nash a team will be willing to sing and trade for him.

Not always true, in fact often not true. Look at Kandi, he wouldn't even talk to us the last time he was a free agent even though we had the same money as the Twolves to spend and had finshed tied with the best record in basketball the previous year and went to the WCF.

Sorry, business is business. And business involves personal relationships. If you consistently crap on people word gets around and people will avoid doing business with you if they think you'll screw them on the 1st opportunity.

DevinHarriswillstart · 06-29-2005, 01:18 PM

Maybe in talent, but in actual production I'm not so sure. If we signed a player like Raja Bell who can get you 10 points a game but plays better defense then Finley, wouldn't that be more ideal under Avery Johnson?

LRB · 06-29-2005, 01:21 PM

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Originally posted by: DevinHarriswillstart
Maybe in talent, but in actual production I'm not so sure. If we signed a player like Raja Bell who can get you 10 points a game but plays better defense then Finley, wouldn't that be more ideal under Avery Johnson?

probably not. Raja is a decent player, and I wouldn't mind having him back. But he's way short of Fin in what he can do to help us win ball games. And he doesn't come close to spreading out the defense the way Fin does. Fin's also bigger and more atheletic. Sure there are some things Raja does better but not near enough. Besides we could have Raja and Fin.

dirno2000 · 06-29-2005, 01:26 PM

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Not always true, in fact often not true. Look at Kandi, he wouldn't even talk to us the last time he was a free agent even though we had the same money as the Twolves to spend and had finshed tied with the best record in basketball the previous year and went to the WCF.

Sorry, business is business. And business involves personal relationships. If you consistently crap on people word gets around and people will avoid doing business with you if they think you'll screw them on the 1st opportunity.

LRB you know Kandi is not a good example...Kevin McHale was his agents college roomate. A FA is going to have too look long and hard to find a team that has never traded a player that helped them. And how is Cuban screwing Finley? He's made the man rich beyond his wildest dreams...if he manages his money right, his childeren and their chidren will grow up filthy rich. He has no obligation to keep him for the length of his contract, only to play him for the lenght of the contract.

DevinHarriswillstart · 06-29-2005, 01:31 PM

The problem is Fin doesn't use being bigger and more athletic to his advantage anymore. The only thing where it helps currently is his fade-away jumper. When Finley is on, its great, but it's soooo inconsistent now that I'm just not in the opinion that we can't fill in the hole. Maybe it won't be everything on the offensive end but it would be advantageous to get someone who plays some defense too. Maybe I'm just optimistic. We've never had problems getting players in the past so I don't think it will be a problem getting a decent player there.

LRB · 06-29-2005, 01:38 PM

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Originally posted by: dirno2000

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Not always true, in fact often not true. Look at Kandi, he wouldn't even talk to us the last time he was a free agent even though we had the same money as the Twolves to spend and had finshed tied with the best record in basketball the previous year and went to the WCF.

Sorry, business is business. And business involves personal relationships. If you consistently crap on people word gets around and people will avoid doing business with you if they think you'll screw them on the 1st opportunity.

LRB you know Kandi is not a good example...Kevin McHale was his agents college roomate. A FA is going to have too look long and hard to find a team that has never traded a player that helped them. And how is Cuban screwing Finley? He's made the man rich beyond his wildest dreams...if he manages his money right, his childeren and their chidren will grow up filthy rich. He has no obligation to keep him for the length of his contract, only to play him for the lenght of the contract.

Replace Kandi with Mourning. Or how about Karl Malone, or Gary Payton, or Mutumbo, or Jim Jackson, or any number of free agents. Or how about naming 1 single marquee FA, and I mean marquee for the MLE, that the Mavs have landed.

Fin definitely won't starve nor will his family. But if you have a choice between elsewhere and here for close to the same money, and remember we don't have a state income tax so usually that makes it more money here, players will choose not to come here so because they know that cuban will ship them to siberia if he thought it would make him money or it could ge a more valuable player in return. So only if the player is willing to risk that will they come here. For many the difference between 4.8 million and 4.65 million doesn't justify that risk when they feel that they can go somewhere with a better reputation for player loyalty.

alby · 06-29-2005, 01:42 PM

Even though the NBA is a business, loyalty and personal relationships is vital just like any other business.

dirno2000 · 06-29-2005, 01:46 PM

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Replace Kandi with Mourning. Or how about Karl Malone, or Gary Payton, or Mutumbo, or Jim Jackson, or any number of free agents. Or how about naming 1 single marquee FA, and I mean marquee for the MLE, that the Mavs have landed.

So what's your point? Is it that Cuban's lack of loyalty caused those guys to sign elswhere? Payton and Malone had a better chance to win with Shaq, Morning wanted to play in the East because it would be easier on his body and NJ had been to the Finals. I don't even remember going after Mutombo or Jackson.

cripple balls · 06-29-2005, 02:13 PM

I'd take Rice's Michael Harris starting over Finley...

LRB · 06-29-2005, 02:21 PM

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So what's your point?

We haven't done jack through FA. The best that I can think of was Tim Hardaway and we shipped him off to Denver before the year was over. Sure you can come with excuse after excuse for why we haven't landed a MLE level Marquee FA, but when none of them are coming and we have to settle on basically those that weren't really sought after, then it makes a logical person wonder as to why. For me, I can't help but believe that it's the turnstyle of players through Dallas that is hurting us along with Cuban ditching 2 prime talents in the last 2 years just to save some bucks.

cripple balls · 06-29-2005, 02:37 PM

RICE’S MICHAEL HARRIS NAMED COLLEGEINSIDER.COM NATIONAL MOST VALUABLE PLAYER

http://www.collegeinsider.com/awards/2005_nmvp.html

DwD · 06-29-2005, 03:59 PM

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Replace Kandi with Mourning. Or how about Karl Malone, or Gary Payton, or Mutumbo, or Jim Jackson, or any number of free agents. Or how about naming 1 single marquee FA, and I mean marquee for the MLE, that the Mavs have landed.

LRB, if I remember it right, Mourning didn't want to come to Dallas becasue he didn't want to go through the health checks that Cuban wanted him to go through that NJ waived - as for Karl Malone, he would have signed with us if we didn't go after Mourning instead - atleast that was Malone's story.

LRB · 06-29-2005, 04:02 PM

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Originally posted by: DwD

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Replace Kandi with Mourning. Or how about Karl Malone, or Gary Payton, or Mutumbo, or Jim Jackson, or any number of free agents. Or how about naming 1 single marquee FA, and I mean marquee for the MLE, that the Mavs have landed.

LRB, if I remember it right, Mourning didn't want to come to Dallas becasue he didn't want to go through the health checks that Cuban wanted him to go through that NJ waived - as for Karl Malone, he would have signed with us if we didn't go after Mourning instead - atleast that was Malone's story.

As I said you can always find an excuse of why one didn't come here, what you can't find is a marquee MLE player coming to Dallas. They go to other teams, but not here. Makes you wonder. Either we're stupid for not pursuing them or so obnoxious that they'll only come here as a last resort kind of thing.

dirno2000 · 06-29-2005, 04:07 PM

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As I said you can always find an excuse of why one didn't come here, what you can't find is a marquee MLE player coming to Dallas. They go to other teams, but not here. Makes you wonder. Either we're stupid for not pursuing them or so obnoxious that they'll only come here as a last resort kind of thing.

But you're point was that our treatment of Fin and even Nash would inhibit our ability to sign MLE FA's...now you're saying that we never have been able to sign them. Is you're arguement that keeping Fin would make Dallas a more attractive destination than not keeping him?

LRB · 06-29-2005, 04:21 PM

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Originally posted by: dirno2000

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As I said you can always find an excuse of why one didn't come here, what you can't find is a marquee MLE player coming to Dallas. They go to other teams, but not here. Makes you wonder. Either we're stupid for not pursuing them or so obnoxious that they'll only come here as a last resort kind of thing.

But you're point was that our treatment of Fin and even Nash would inhibit our ability to sign MLE FA's...now you're saying that we never have been able to sign them. Is you're arguement that keeping Fin would make Dallas a more attractive destination than not keeping him?

I should have stated as it's only going to make our existing problem with FA's worse and not better. I think that the amount that we have to either outbid our competition in dollars or have a better chance of winning a title increases when we let Fin go.

alby · 06-29-2005, 05:13 PM

Although our organization's lack of loyalty shown to our players does hurt, those FA's you mentioned also had good reasons to sign with their respective teams.

Rhylan · 06-29-2005, 05:52 PM

I still think it's unlikely that the Mavs pay Finley $51M to play for someone else.. but I just have to ask... why is it that everyone cries loyalty when talking about the Mavericks and the way they make moves?

Have these moves not, for the most part, put the team in a better position than 4 years ago?
Do these same players, to whom "loyalty" is supposedly so important, not show a willingness to change teams for more money or a better situation to win?
Hasn't every single player who has come to Dallas from a losing team been thrilled to be on the team and made a positive impact in at least the locker room, if not always the court?

Dig it... these guys want to make a lot of money and have a fairly easy time at it. The more you win, the easier it is. Sometimes they give up winning for money, sometimes they give up money for winning. Yes, loyalty DOES enter the thought process of both the player and the organization when a player has who've spent 6, 7, 8 years or more with a team, but to say that Joe Blow MLE Free Agent doesn't want to take a 4 - 6 year deal from Dallas starting at $5M with raises because they're not "loyal" is silly. Free agents, of all people, don't have much to stand on when it comes to loyalty.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-29-2005, 05:56 PM

LRB, I agree that losing Finley is a step backwards and would hurt our roster. However, I disagree entirely about our FA "problem." All of this "loyalty" talk started with Nash, and to a lesser extent, Van Exel. In the 2003 offseason, there were several Marquee FA's we were looking at; Olowakandi, Brad Miller, Nesterovic, Malone, and Zo. All of those players signed with their respective teams well before we traded Van Exel. So are you honestly suggesting that those players chose not to sign with Dallas out of fear of Mark Cuban's disloyalty, because he traded Tim Hardaway? Please... This past offseason, to the best of my memory, the FA we were really after was... Erick Dampier. Sure, it was a sign-and-trade, but still. Now, MAYBE letting Nash walk and cutting Finley could hinder our ability in the future to sign FA's, but I doubt it. All the FA's we've missed out on may have been due to lousy negotiating skills, but they had nothing to do with loyalty.

EricaLubarsky · 06-29-2005, 06:06 PM

loyalty is much more important to older veterans that are tired of moving than it is to young guys.

I can see loyalty affecting Joe Blow, age 35, wants to play 4 more years, has family and doesnt want to move them

I can't see it affect Joe Blow II, age 20, wants more money in his pocket/wants to win like he did in college, no family

I also cant see it affect Joe Blow III, age 36, body is wearing down, looking for 1-2 year contract just to play a little bit