You'll get a good laugh at this... - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Phil Helmuth · 09-23-2004, 09:50 AM

Annie Duke kicked my @$$ in the Tournament of Champions. I am forever embarrassed. Double or nothing I come back to win the WSOP next year and take my 10th gold bracelet. Root for me!

bernardos70 · 09-23-2004, 10:18 AM

What?

mavs413 · 09-23-2004, 04:11 PM

HaHa!

wait.....what am I laughing about again?

sike · 09-23-2004, 04:41 PM

this whole identity theft thing is not funny....the real Phil Helmuth would never laugh at a defeat.

Drbio · 09-23-2004, 04:54 PM

That is now 5 WTF quality posts in his career here.

u2sarajevo · 09-23-2004, 06:03 PM

Annie Duke is really good though Phil.... so don't be so down on yourself. Keep your chin up...

sike · 09-23-2004, 06:09 PM

Annie is good, but nowhere near Helmuth...her brother, Howard "the professor" is pretty darn good.

Smiles · 09-23-2004, 07:04 PM

Was that her on Letterman last night? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]

chumdawg · 09-23-2004, 08:13 PM

Annie Duke annoys the crap out of me. If she were male, she'd have a rep about as bad as Hellmuth's. But since she's a novelty, she's a press darling.

FreshJive · 09-24-2004, 12:49 AM

Annie played him like an Xbox. Phil fell for the showing the nine trick hook line and sinker and because of it he couldn't lay down the ten with the weak kicker.

poohrichardson · 09-24-2004, 03:00 AM

It's still my opinion that Howard Lederer (aka the Professor, Annie Duke's older brother) is the best poker player in the world. Helmuth has zero respect for everyone he faces, which is why he makes lots of bad calls.

This new guy, "Fossilman" Raymer (I think is his gimmick/name?) proved that his WSOP win was a fluke. I know that he beat like 2600 other guys.. but did you guys watch? He only played coinflip hands and somehow won EVERY ONE OF THEM. Then in the tournament of champions, he rarely won a hand and made hideous calls (all-in with a 9/10 unsuited? brutality) and proved that he still has a lot to learn. I really wanted to see Doyle Brunson take him out, just to show that new guys aren't even CLOSE to being in the same league as the players at the table.

Go Lederer.

EricaLubarsky · 09-24-2004, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Drbio
That is now 5 WTF quality posts in his career here.

Quote:

Originally posted by: Phil Helmuth
I wager I will boo. However no one ever boos me for going all in for the money. I have 9 WSOP bracelets in fact.

Quote:

Originally posted by: Phil Helmuth
Im from Finland, we spell color colour and so sometimes words such as bracelets don't properly translate into English.

Quote:

Originally posted by: Phil Helmuth
I'll wager Murphy isn't the only one who doesn't like you {Erica}. In fact I feel so strongly on that I'll go all in.

Quote:

Originally posted by: Phil Helmuth
3 posts matters why? Jesus Ferguson went from 4,000 in chips to 175,000 in 4 hands. Maybe I will stop playing professional poker and post all the time so Erica and I can "go all in" in a battle of wits. I might have to spot her a couple of chips or so. A flush always beats a straight.

Quote:

Originally posted by: Phil Helmuth
Annie Duke kicked my @$$ in the Tournament of Champions. I am forever embarrassed. Double or nothing I come back to win the WSOP next year and take my 10th gold bracelet. Root for me!

I canhear Gilbert Godfried saying "WTF" right now.

Phil Helmuth · 09-24-2004, 04:10 PM

Yet again Erica succeeds at being unfunny. I'm all in that no one has ever laughed at any of your ill-fated attempts at humor. I'll give you even odds that you suck more than Annie Duke.

sike · 09-24-2004, 05:01 PM

hey "Phil", stop wasting time...at least stop wasting our time....there is a great forum that is more your style right here if you ever really want to talk poker, we'll be here.

Smiles · 09-24-2004, 05:23 PM

Erica, you crack me up! But I was just about to say that it's obvious this Phil poster must be a real poker player - yes, even "the" poker player - can't you tell by his choice of poker references?? [img]i/expressions/moon.gif[/img] Doesn't he just ooz with it? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

And if Annie Duke sucks, then I guess there's nothing wrong with sucking afterall. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img] Count me all in.

Drbio · 09-24-2004, 05:30 PM

Could it be that a certain previously banned Erica hating poster has returned to our midst with *gasp* a new account?

FWIW...I thought Erica was funny there too. Sadly, I'll be hearing Gilbert Godfried in my head all weekend. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img]

Phil Helmuth · 09-24-2004, 05:50 PM

I'm just wasting time until I can wager on the Mavs. I've already placed 6k on 2-1 odds Mark Cuban gets fined 100k this season. I like my chances as I'm planning on buying season tickets behind Mark and bringing a cowbell to bang every home game. Hopefully he loses it and attacks me. At the very least he can send DJ to do it. Drbio I don't know who the banned poster is, but I guarentee she is more hated by more people than Phil Helmuth is.

Male30Dan · 09-24-2004, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Phil Helmuth
Drbio I don't know who the banned poster is, but I guarentee she is more hated by more people than Phil Helmuth is.

I like your chances Phil!!!

sike · 09-24-2004, 06:10 PM

Quote:

I guarentee she is more hated by more people than Phil Helmuth is.

come now Phil, don't underrate yourself...

SaltwaterChaffy · 09-24-2004, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: poohrichardson
It's still my opinion that Howard Lederer (aka the Professor, Annie Duke's older brother) is the best poker player in the world. Helmuth has zero respect for everyone he faces, which is why he makes lots of bad calls.

This new guy, "Fossilman" Raymer (I think is his gimmick/name?) proved that his WSOP win was a fluke. I know that he beat like 2600 other guys.. but did you guys watch? He only played coinflip hands and somehow won EVERY ONE OF THEM. Then in the tournament of champions, he rarely won a hand and made hideous calls (all-in with a 9/10 unsuited? brutality) and proved that he still has a lot to learn. I really wanted to see Doyle Brunson take him out, just to show that new guys aren't even CLOSE to being in the same league as the players at the table.

Go Lederer.

I have many responses to this post.

*Lederer is in fact one of the best poker players in the world, and is often under-rated.

*Helmuth has respect for a great deal of poker players, but his ego gets in the way. You will rarely see him berate a pro, but he loves to berate the amateurs. His comment "If it wasn't for luck, I'd win everytime" is one of the saddest things I've heard in a while, because I think he actually believes it. The fact is, over the past year, he has been playing bad poker. I personally think he's still reeling from the beat he took in 2003 from Jason Lester (JJ over QQ when Lester's jack fell on the river.)

*Greg "Fossilman" Raymer played great poker in the WSOP. Your post shows a clear lack of understanding of the game of poker. He did not play only coinflip hands. What you see on TV is a severely bastardized version of the actual tournament. Perhaps you only watched the final table, and you saw the beats he put on Mike McClain and Mattias Anderson. The WSOP does not do a good job of keeping viewers informed of things like blind structure and chip counts. Raymer had an unreal chip lead, and he used it to his advantage, just like any good poker player does. Let's take the McClain hand. McClain had aces, and Raymer has tens. McClain raises to 100k, and when it gets to Raymer, he makes it 500k, which is a great move to do considering his chip stack compared to McClain's. (8 million to 800k, roughly.) Now, when McClain goes all in, it's only 300k more for Raymer to call, and he has an absurd chip stack to do it. There are things called "pot odds" and anyone who folds there is making a horrible play. The same thing happened with Anderson.

I have not seen the T.O.C. yet, but I have heard that it was essentially the same thing, Raymer had the odds to call, but didn't hit his draws this time. As I have also heard, Annie Duke won her share of coinflips in this tourney as well.

The point is this: Do not make the mistake of lumping in Greg Raymer with the likes of Robert Varykoni and Chris Moneymaker. He is much much better than that. Did he get lucky? Yes. So did others (Al Krux beating him when a four-flush hit on the river, Harrington getting a third nine on the river.) Is he World-Class? No, but neither is Annie Duke if you ask me. But he is a very good player who deserves more respect than he will get from the uninformed public.

chumdawg · 09-24-2004, 09:48 PM

True points, Chaffy. It seemed that every time they showed another hand from the final table, Raymer had amassed another million or so chips. It would be nice to be able to watch all the hands. He must have been playing some terrific poker the whole time. And yes, he was using his stack just like he should. He did seem to win more than his fair share of races, but maybe he lost a number that they didn't show. Anyway, it's certainly not unusual for the big chip leader to eliminate players when he is not a big favorite in the hand. Tournaments would go on forever otherwise!

Now, Raymer did go pretty braindead at the end of the Tournament of Champions. He wasn't in nearly as desperate shape as his play would have suggested. He could have chosen some better spots to make a move. But hey, when you've just won the $5MM main prize, who cares, right?

I won't spoil any details of the TOC in case you want to see it without knowing certain things, but let's just say that Annie got at least one really big break.

FreshJive mentioned the "trick" that Hellmuth fell for on one hand when they were heads-up at the end. Fresh, I don't think that Phil bought the act that she was selling. (Well, she wasn't selling all that hard, really.) Phil may have been selling that he bought it, but if he did, then he's not the poker player he's supposed to be--either for buying the act after the fact or for folding his hand in the first place. My opinion is that Phil knew what the other card was.

My choice for best player in the world at present would be Harrington.

sike · 09-24-2004, 10:18 PM

how in the world did this post which started as troll bate turn into such a good poker-talk thread? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

I don't know if Harrington would be my top choice, chum, but his ability to finish at the final table two years in a row at the WSOP is pretty freakin awesome! I would still love to see Brunson win a big time turni, does anyone have any thoughts as to why he does not win or even finish final table more often? I know he does not play that much, but it would be great to see him tear down the young pups more often [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] .....

Quote:

*Lederer is in fact one of the best poker players in the world, and is often under-rated.

I love the grace with which he plays the game....very strong in all facets of the game and would probably be my choice for best player.

sike · 09-24-2004, 11:00 PM

Does anyone know if espn or anyone else puts the WSOP or any of the other big tournaments on DVD??

SaltwaterChaffy · 09-24-2004, 11:41 PM

The Travel Channel has released it's first season of the World Poker Tour on DVD. WSOP DVDs would be pirated copies only. ESPN Classic has been showing old WSOPs for the past week or so.

sike · 09-24-2004, 11:55 PM

ESPN is sitting on a DVD gold mine with the WSOP...they better get that out as soo as possible....

chumdawg · 09-25-2004, 05:08 PM

Quote:

I don't know if Harrington would be my top choice, chum, but his ability to finish at the final table two years in a row at the WSOP is pretty freakin awesome! I would still love to see Brunson win a big time turni, does anyone have any thoughts as to why he does not win or even finish final table more often? I know he does not play that much, but it would be great to see him tear down the young pups more often .....

That's mostly what impressed me about Harrington, Sike. That's an amazing number of people to get through two years in a row, especially when you consider the other top players who tried to do the same thing and failed.

Tournaments have lots of vagaries, which is what Harrington's achievement so remarkable and also what I think accounts (in part) for Doyle not going deep more often. He certainly showed that he could more than hold his own still. But sometimes you have to avoid bad luck too many times to get to the end. I bet Doyle could break all those whippersnappers in a cash game!

Phil Helmuth · 09-25-2004, 05:51 PM

Arieh is a total prick. I played at an underground 3 million$ game with him last year and he talked so much trash he was unbearable. I don't know if you noticed but Doyle has gone senile, who is he to question ME? Phil Helmuth!? Ah, the funny thing is that the TOC watchers along with Norman Chad thought that Annie really faked me with that nine. Ha! That was amatuer, I knew after the check raise she had a king, the nine only confirmed she had two pairs. In closing, if it weren't for luck, I'd win every time.

sike · 09-25-2004, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Phil Helmuth
Arieh is a total prick. I played at an underground 3 million$ game with him last year and he talked so much trash he was unbearable. I don't know if you noticed but Doyle has gone senile, who is he to question ME? Phil Helmuth!? Ah, the funny thing is that the TOC watchers along with Norman Chad thought that Annie really faked me with that nine. Ha! That was amatuer, I knew after the check raise she had a king, the nine only confirmed she had two pairs. In closing, if it weren't for luck, I'd win every time.

eighth post and still nothing but solid gold
[img]i/expressions/moon.gif[/img]

Phil Helmuth · 09-26-2004, 06:43 PM

I'll wager your understanding of "the lounge" is limited. Let me refresh your memory. The Lounge- Kick back, relax, and grab a cold one. This is the place to chill out and talk about, well, anything!

EricaLubarsky · 09-26-2004, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Phil Helmuth
I'll wager your understanding of "the lounge" is limited. Let me refresh your memory. The Lounge- Kick back, relax, and grab a cold one. This is the place to chill out and talk about, well, anything!

I'll wager you didn't know that when you posted

Quote:

I'll wager Murphy isn't the only one who doesn't like you {Erica}. In fact I feel so strongly on that I'll go all in.

in the Mavs section.

poohrichardson · 09-26-2004, 07:02 PM

Quote:

*Greg "Fossilman" Raymer played great poker in the WSOP. Your post shows a clear lack of understanding of the game of poker. He did not play only coinflip hands. What you see on TV is a severely bastardized version of the actual tournament. Perhaps you only watched the final table, and you saw the beats he put on Mike McClain and Mattias Anderson. The WSOP does not do a good job of keeping viewers informed of things like blind structure and chip counts. Raymer had an unreal chip lead, and he used it to his advantage, just like any good poker player does. Let's take the McClain hand. McClain had aces, and Raymer has tens. McClain raises to 100k, and when it gets to Raymer, he makes it 500k, which is a great move to do considering his chip stack compared to McClain's. (8 million to 800k, roughly.) Now, when McClain goes all in, it's only 300k more for Raymer to call, and he has an absurd chip stack to do it. There are things called "pot odds" and anyone who folds there is making a horrible play. The same thing happened with Anderson.

I have not seen the T.O.C. yet, but I have heard that it was essentially the same thing, Raymer had the odds to call, but didn't hit his draws this time. As I have also heard, Annie Duke won her share of coinflips in this tourney as well.

The point is this: Do not make the mistake of lumping in Greg Raymer with the likes of Robert Varykoni and Chris Moneymaker. He is much much better than that. Did he get lucky? Yes. So did others (Al Krux beating him when a four-flush hit on the river, Harrington getting a third nine on the river.) Is he World-Class? No, but neither is Annie Duke if you ask me. But he is a very good player who deserves more respect than he will get from the uninformed public.

I don't have the patience or desire to be as long winded as you are.. all I know is that Raymer won nearly every race they showed on TV.. and other hands that he so brilliantly played weren't shown on TV for some reason.. I'll admit that it can't be pure luck to win out of 2600 people... but he made a lot of bad calls that he ended up getting lucky on is my point.

Don't assume I know nothing about poker. I am a very intelligent player and always a student of the game. You rushed to Raymer's defense right after you did the same thing to me that I did to him.

FreshJive · 09-27-2004, 01:41 AM

"Phil may have been selling that he bought it, but if he did, then he's not the poker player he's supposed to be"

That was my point. Everytime the guy loses he goes on and on about how, "if it weren't a game of luck I guess I would win everytime." Whatever, dude. If you really believed that then you wouldn't have invested so much time into it, Phil. I think he was just pissed that he got beat by a woman. Which is why you probably won't give her credit.

SaltwaterChaffy · 09-29-2004, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: poohrichardson

Quote:

*.

I don't have the patience or desire to be as long winded as you are.. all I know is that Raymer won nearly every race they showed on TV.. and other hands that he so brilliantly played weren't shown on TV for some reason.. I'll admit that it can't be pure luck to win out of 2600 people... but he made a lot of bad calls that he ended up getting lucky on is my point.

Don't assume I know nothing about poker. I am a very intelligent player and always a student of the game. You rushed to Raymer's defense right after you did the same thing to me that I did to him.

I take to heart your last comment. Perhaps I shouldn't have attacked your understanding of the game. But then you followed it up with this post. It's one thing to not understand pot odds. Many recreational poker players don't. But if you want to tell me that you are "a very intelligent player and student of the game" while ignoring the fact that ESPN chops the hell out of these tournies, than I cannot take you seriously.

ESPN is about entertainment, and they are only going to show the hands that are exciting. A lot of hands are not exciting. Hence the quote "No Limit Hold Em is hours of boredom followed by seconds of sheer terror." Thus, many other hands were cut out for dramatic purposes. ESPN even changes/creates hands that never happened for added drama. But that's another topic.

EricaLubarsky · 09-29-2004, 05:23 PM

If Chess is a game, then cards arent a sport. I dont know why ESPN covers the tournaments. It's like Battle Bots on Comedy Central. It's entertaining, but it isn't humor.

chumdawg · 09-29-2004, 08:24 PM

Quote:

ESPN even changes/creates hands that never happened for added drama. But that's another topic.

I would love to hear more about this, Chaffy.

EricaLubarsky · 09-30-2004, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: chumdawg

Quote:

ESPN even changes/creates hands that never happened for added drama. But that's another topic.

I would love to hear more about this, Chaffy.

Wild! Is it true?

SaltwaterChaffy · 09-30-2004, 01:19 AM

The first thing that needs to be understood when breaching this topic is that ESPN has different tables set up for the tournament. They have the "TV table," which is equipped with lipstick cameras at every seat so that they can view the hole cards for each player. Then they have "featured" tables, which they keep a close eye on (based on whether or not "name" pros are there) but do not have lipstick cameras at. For the featured (as well as all the rest) they just have camera guys walking around to pick up the best action.

Two of the hands that I am about to mention occured at "featured" tables, one occured at a TV table.

This year's WSOP featured a hand between Josh Arieh and Marcel Luske at a feature table. Arieh was shown to have T8, and flopped two pair on a T8x board. (T = ten, x = random card that doesn't matter.) Luske had pocket Aces. I don't remember the exact betting structure of the hand, but an Ace fell on the river. After the river, Arieh checked (bad, but not completely unreasonable) and Marcel bet. Arieh almost immediately mucked his hand. Given the amount of money that was in the pot, and there is no way Arieh plays two pair that way, and he certainly doesn't automatically lay it down on the river. Marcel flipped the Aces over, but Arieh never flipped his hand. It is pretty safe to assume that this was a hand that ESPN invented.

In the 2003 broadcast, there was a hand that took place between Chuck Hoang and Scotty Nguyen at a feature table. The board had been played out to the river, and it was a King high board, with no straight or flush possibilities. According to ESPN, Scotty held AK, and Chuck had KK. After a river bet by Scotty, Hoang went all in. Hoang's all in was for approximately half of the pot, and the call would not have put a significant dent in Scotty's chip stack. In almost all situations, anyone makes this call. But Scotty folds. Again, there is no way that Nguyen folds AK here. It just isn't reasonable poker.

This is the trickiest one. In the 2003 broadcast, a hand took place at a TV table between Tony D and Phil Hellmuth. Tony D supposedly lays down Jack Ten on a KJJ4 board. I won't go into as many details here, instead I'll direct you to this page. Tony D vs. Phil Hellmuth I believe that Paul Phillips put together this page. I think there is also a link on this page explaining in better detail what I have described above.

Disclaimer: Though these are technically just opinions, they are not just my opinion. This opinion is shared by the majority of the poker community, and though ESPN will never come out and say whether or not they faked a hand, there seems to be good evidence that they did just that.