Proving a Point

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Proving A Point
Our Final Worry: You'll Be Surprised

By Mike Fisher and David Lord -- DallasBasketball.com
You might be surprised to learn what we think is the final question needing be resolved regarding the 2004-05 Mavericks:
Point guard.
Don’t misunderstand. The Dampier deal is done, meaning the Mavs have finally completed their multi-year quest for a legitimate big man, but we still can’t be certain at what level he’ll play. And then there is the matter of getting the roster down to 15, and the matter of how to divide playing time among the swing men, and the matter of crossing our fingers regarding what we hope is the emergence of Dirk Nowitzki as a non-deferential leader.
But we circle “None of the above’’ when it comes to those issues, at least regarding what we say is the most glaring question mark still facing the Mavs: the point guard position.
At every other position on the roster, the Mavs look to be solid in the sense that they are manned by known commodities.
But at point guard, both Terry and Harris are unproven in Nellie's system – and Harris is unproven, period. Both carry basic question marks as to whether they will be capable of the task.
Take Jason Terry, the ex-Hawk, who has the NBA experience, and will tell anyone who will listen that he believes himself to be a PG. Problem is, some in the Hawks organization thought him better suited, given his style and tendencies and talent, to shooting guard.
No, says Mavs exec Donnie Nelson, “He’s a scoring point guard.’’
We envision JT having no problem replacing Steve Nash as an all-around offensive threat; the Dirk-Nash pick-and-pop/roll might have nothing on the Dirk/Terry version. But in terms of being able to adjust quickly to being an extension of Nellie on the floor? We are a bit worried.
Put it this way: In recent years, we’ve seen more “pure’’ point guards fail at executing Nellie’s plan. Remember Howard Eisley? Remember a broken down Tim Hardaway? Remember a value-less Vernon Maxwell? Remember even Travis Best?
Of course, those guys were just, well, guys. Terry envisions himself as being special.
As Terry recently told the Morning News: "I see all of the opportunities that come to a Mike Bibby in Sacramento or a Steve Francis. I feel I'm in that class, an elite class."
That statement not only refers to Terry moving to a winning program, as Bibby did. It refers to his personal comparison with other POINT guards.
And then take Devin Harris. The pedigree is there; everyone loves him as the fifth player taken in the draft, and if you’ve seen him play in the summer league, as the DB.com staff has, you’d love his potential, too. He is capable of the spectacular dunk and the spectacular pass. He plays full-court pressing defense not because it’s the play called, but because it’s his personal preference. He is intense and cool at the same time, another Nash-like trait. We simply cannot forget our recent conversation with Mavs assistant Charlie Parker, who supervised Devin in the summer league and said: “I think very soon, he will be a finished product. He’s only 20 or so, with a couple of years of college experience. I’m most impressed with the fact he seems to be a quick learner. Every game, we give him one more thing to work on, and every game he goes out and works it completely. He can pass, shoot, he’s so quick, and he learns quickly. He’s developing as a leader, too. It’s hard for a young guy to come in and look around, see these great players, see Donnie over there and Mark Cuban over there, and not be intimidated. But once he gets that confidence, he’ll make it.’’
While folks in Atlanta whisper that Terry might not be a pure point, basketball folks inside the Mavs braintrust whisper how quickly Harris might do Tony Parker-like things, Kevin Johnson-like things, Steve Nash-like things.
The Mavs think all that. But unlike at the other spots on the floor, they don’t know.
That’s why the temptation remains to try to grab Jason Kidd rather than to allow the pair to grow into the role here. Kidd's age, health issues, and contract all entail high risk, so it will be crucial for the Mavs to determine whether they already have what they need, or not.
With expectations sky-high in the wake of the moves this summer – and the feeling that the other five, six, seven top spots in the rotation have contention potential -- the patience needed to allow Terry and Harris to develop into the role may be hard to come by

[LRB]

But in terms of being able to adjust quickly to being an extension of Nellie on the floor? We are a bit worried.

Actually might be a good thing to have a point guard who is an extention of Nellie's craziness. Imaginge a point guard who won't freeze Dirk out? Imagine one who won't let the opponet score just so we can get the ball back? Imagine a point guard who will actually feed the post on a regular basis?

[StvNash13]

I would be much more comfortable with Terry and Harris than Kidd here. First, getting Kidd would involve a huge commitment, and should he get injured, we're done for a number of years. Second, we'll be giving away a lot of talent to get him. Third, I don't see him as an upgrade over Terry.

[madape]

I don't see how people can be comfortable giving Dampier a 7 year, near max deal, but shudder at the thought of adding Jason Kidd.

Jason Kidd is easily the best point guard in the NBA today and one of the best to ever play his position. He's carried his team on his shoulders to two stright NBA finals appearances. He's been named all-NBA. He's been to God knows how many all-star games. He's a game changing superstar who makes those around him better. He's a first ballot hall of famer. He's one of the greatest players this game has ever seen, and he's still playing at all-NBA levels.

Dampier is a career spare who's never sniffed an all-star game. Hell, he's never sniffed a playoff game. He doesn't make those around him better. He contributes to the sorryness of his team.

StvNash13, if you really think Jason Terry is an upgrade over Jason Kidd, you are the most dilusional homer I've ever seen on this board.

[EricaLubarsky]

I don't see how people can be comfortable giving Dampier a 7 year, near max deal, but shudder at the thought of adding Jason Kidd.

Jason Kidd is two years older than Dampier, and plays the point which is the most difficul position to compete in without youth. Kidd also has injury concerns that make him questionable. Even if he comes back at 95%, the nagging of the injury may still shorten his career. His physical game makes these concerns more pressing.

Dampier is a career spare who's never sniffed an all-star game. Hell, he's never sniffed a playoff game. He doesn't make those around him better. He contributes to the sorryness of his team.

Im sorry you think this team is sorry, and I'm sorry if you take a role player who has competed with Shaq his whole career for a spare.

[madape]

Jason Kidd is two years older than Dampier, and plays the point which is the most difficul position to compete in without youth. Kidd also has injury concerns that make him questionable. Even if he comes back at 95%, the nagging of the injury may still shorten his career. His physical game makes these concerns more pressing.

Im sorry you think this team is sorry, and I'm sorry if you take a role player who has competed with Shaq his whole career for a spare.

See, this is what I'm talking about. People have fallen in love with this pile of crap and don't know a damn thing about him. You actually think that health is an advantage for Dampier? The man can't go a week without dislocating an ankle, tearing up his knee, or otherwise breaking down. He's ended four of the last five seasons on injury reserve. I hear he actually throws a bonfire every year with his collection of crutches.

Competed with Shaq? Yeah, I guess that's technically true. But he certainly hasn't looked good doing so. The man's been owned by the Diesel for eight years now. I don't know where you get the idea that Dump has had ANY success against O'Neil because it simply isn't true. Even last year, Dampier's only respectable year, Shaq was still dropping 30 and 20 on the Warriors like Dampier was a special-ed kindergardner.

He hasn't helped his team win. He hasn't done anything. Even when surrounded by good players... I should say ESPECIALLY when surrounded by good players... Dampier still couldn't keep his team from losing more games than just about any other NBA franchise of the past decade.

I don't think Mavs fans know what they are getting into with this guy. Comments like these confirm my suspicions.

You act as if you haven't seen Kidd play either. He's never been a guy who utilizes superior athleticism to overwhelm his opponent. He's not a leaper. He doesn't kill people off the dribble and jam the ball down in a ferocious dunk. But he is the world's best at seeing the court. He's may be the best passer the game has ever seen. He creates plays. He runs the fast break. He backs down shorter guys in the post and either shoots over them or dishes out dimes. These are skills that won't go away with age or injury. Physical game? This isn't Dominique Wilkins we're talking about. I really think Kidd will be one of those guys who makes the all-star team when he's 40 years old.

I don't know what Dampier's official birthday i. I guess it has been recently updated to get around that pesky little CBA rule about option years. Depending on who you listen to he's either one year or two years younger than Kidd. Close enough. I know Damps had a more prolonged problem with injuries. He's had more wear on his body.

Their contracts end around the same time, but I guarantee you Kidd will sign another big deal once he's done. I'll also bet you anything you want to bet that he still has more all-star appearances left in him than our current franshise messiah (which would be about zero). I'm guessing that Dump retires before his seven years are even up. Broken down old big men with marginal NBA talent tend to retire a little early.

[LRB]

One question for you ape, what can Dampier do to prove you wrong and have you come out and admint that you were mistaken? If he repeats at 12/12/2 this year will that do it? How about if he makes the all star team as well? How about if the Mavs win it all? Obviously we're talking about stuff that we won't know the outcome of until the end of the season. But what standard does Damp have to pass to get the Madape stamp of approval?

[cheesestar]

if damp is a question mark injury wise, what would jason kidd be???

[GermanBlitzkrieg]

LRB, good questions. I don't post often, read every day. I think this team surprises the rest of the league and Ape.

I'm looking for WFC finalist, and really think they make the finals. Less, and the team comes up short for this year.

[madape]

If Kidd is a question mark injury wise, what would Dampier be???

... an injury question mark who's never been 1st team all-NBA, who's never been to the all-star game, who's never been to the playoffs, etc etc etc.


As for a barometer of success, I'll agree to this: IF Dampier averages 10 points, 8 boards, and 2 blocks. IF he plays more than 50 games, and IF the Mavs get home court advantage in the first round, I will consider Dampier a good fit. I don't think any of the three is particularly realistic.

[cheesestar]

dampier is coming off of the best year of his basketball career, kidd is coming off surgery

[LRB]

Originally posted by: madape
If Kidd is a question mark injury wise, what would Dampier be???

... an injury question mark who's never been 1st team all-NBA, who's never been to the all-star game, who's never been to the playoffs, etc etc etc.


As for a barometer of success, I'll agree to this: IF Dampier averages 10 points, 8 boards, and 2 blocks. IF he plays more than 50 games, and IF the Mavs get home court advantage in the first round, I will consider Dampier a good fit. I don't think any of the three is particularly realistic.

That sounds pretty fair Ape. I hope for all us mav fans you're proven to be wrong though. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[madape]

I hope so too

[cheesestar]

optimism is not a bad thing at all... unless you're a bobcat fan[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[Day1MavsFan]

One has to admit, Ape makes some good points. Still, I understand the Mavs wanting to be cautious with him. He certainly won't be able to run up and down the floor if he's got a permanent injury. If this is just something from which he has to recover, then I'd be on board. For some reason, Nash always seems to severely outplay him head-to-head, although that doesn't mean that Nash is better.

[Day1MavsFan]

Originally posted by: madape
If Kidd is a question mark injury wise, what would Dampier be???

... an injury question mark who's never been 1st team all-NBA, who's never been to the all-star game, who's never been to the playoffs, etc etc etc.


As for a barometer of success, I'll agree to this: IF Dampier averages 10 points, 8 boards, and 2 blocks. IF he plays more than 50 games, and IF the Mavs get home court advantage in the first round, I will consider Dampier a good fit. I don't think any of the three is particularly realistic.

What about 8 points and 10 boards? That might be more likely and a better fit.

[vinnieponte]

Madape this one is for you!

[madape]

What about 8 points and 10 boards? That might be more likely and a better fit.

A better fit? yes. More likely? no.

[nowitzki_prophecy]

You dont think its realistic we'll have home court adventage in the first round???

[vinnieponte]

[mcsluggo]

10 points 8 boards and 50 games!??!

talk about setting the bar high for an elite, impact free agent.

Grade inflation.



Should Phoenix be happy if nash has 5 assists 12 points and manages to scrape together 50 games?

That freaking banger Peja had 6.5 boards...

[StvNash13]

\StvNash13, if you really think Jason Terry is an upgrade over Jason Kidd, you are the most dilusional homer I've ever seen on this board.[/quote]


I didn't say he was an upgrade, but I certainly don't think as highly of Kidd as you do. First, the man can't shoot the ball, but nevertheless takes about 20 shots a game. That's just what we need isn't it. Second, he comes at a very high price. Very. What would it take for NJ to trade him? Terry + Stack + Josh + maybe Pavel. I'm not giving them that much for an argueable upgrade and a HUGE risk. Talk about morgaging your future on an injury prone player. Besides, in 2 year JK will be the Payton of last year. A has been who contributes nothing to his team.

[madape]

Originally posted by: mcsluggo
10 points 8 boards and 50 games!??!

talk about setting the bar high for an elite, impact free agent.

Grade inflation.



Should Phoenix be happy if nash has 5 assists 12 points and manages to scrape together 50 games?

That freaking banger Peja had 6.5 boards...

Tell me about it. Those numbers are well above Dampier's averages, but that's about the most we can hope for out of the "best Maverick centers since James Donaldson". I expect something more along the lines of 8 points, 6 boards and a season full of injuries. The sad thing about this deal is that even if Dampier exceeds my expectations, he's still a bust. We paid far, far, far too much for such a mediocre player.

[vinnieponte]

Madape, it's over and bradley is a backup, if that this season. Just live with it the way we all had to live with Nash leaving.

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: madape
If Kidd is a question mark injury wise, what would Dampier be???

... an injury question mark who's never been 1st team all-NBA, who's never been to the all-star game, who's never been to the playoffs, etc etc etc.


As for a barometer of success, I'll agree to this: IF Dampier averages 10 points, 8 boards, and 2 blocks. IF he plays more than 50 games, and IF the Mavs get home court advantage in the first round, I will consider Dampier a good fit. I don't think any of the three is particularly realistic.

Oh how I will call you out when the final game of the season is over and ALL THREE have come to fruition!!! Keep our bet of "public show of emotion" in mind when setting the bar even lower than we originally discussed!!! You claimed you will eat crow in those PMs, and I am asking you now, in front of everyone, if you will willingly eat my tasty, delicious, baked-with-glee, crow pie if Dampier achieves the above averages???

By the way, I serve heaping helpings!!!

[madape]

what was your challenge? a double double? I'm not worried, beleive me.

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: madape
what was your challenge? a double double? I'm not worried, beleive me.

Hahaha... I am STILL up for that bet, but you said you would eat crow and accept that he was good for Dallas at 10 and 8... Are you unwilling to stick with that, or do you want to go back to the double double, (which I easily still think he will get)???

[chumdawg]

Originally posted by: madape


As for a barometer of success, I'll agree to this: IF Dampier averages 10 points, 8 boards, and 2 blocks. IF he plays more than 50 games, and IF the Mavs get home court advantage in the first round, I will consider Dampier a good fit. I don't think any of the three is particularly realistic.

Interesting you say that, because in his 393 career starts, those are almost exactly Damp's stats. Precisely, they are:

28.3 minutes
9.86 points
8.06 rebounds
1.77 blocks

I imagine he would average more minutes than that this year. So what is particularly unrealistic about that?

Playing 50 games... The guy has missed 8 games over the past two seasons. For comparison:

Games Played Over the Last Two Seasons

157 - Dirk
156 - Damp
154 - Ben Wallace
150 - Duncan
145 - Brad Miller
142 - K-Mart
134 - Shaq

Either you prefer to live in the past, in a time before Dampier committed himself to building a body that can withstand the rigors of the NBA, or you realize that the Dampier of today is as healthy as or healthier than a lot of his peers.

On HCA in the first round... A realistic appraisal would probably rate the Lakers and Kings as good candidates to slide out of the top four in the West. There should be a couple spots there for the taking. If losing Nash does not have a major impact, the Mavs should have a nice chance to slide in there.

[nowitzki_prophecy]

On HCA in the first round... A realistic appraisal would probably rate the Lakers and Kings as good candidates to slide out of the top four in the West. There should be a couple spots there for the taking. If losing Nash does not have a major impact, the Mavs should have a nice chance to slide in there.

Mavs and Houston slide in.

[Turkey]

I rather have Marburry. I think this year Dirk will hog the frekin ball like last year. We need another hogger who can score and that being Marburry.

[sike]

I love Turkey.....he/she? never ceases to amaze me!

[LRB]

Originally posted by: nowitzki_prophecy

Mavs and Houston slide in.

San Antonio wouold have to slide out for both the Mavs and Houston to slide into HCA, since Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio will all be in the same division and only 2 teams maximum may have 1st round HCA from the same division. Dallas and Houston could both be the top 4 in the west record wise though without San Antonio falling out.

[seagullstalker35]

Originally posted by: madape
If Kidd is a question mark injury wise, what would Dampier be???

... an injury question mark who's never been 1st team all-NBA, who's never been to the all-star game, who's never been to the playoffs, etc etc etc.


As for a barometer of success, I'll agree to this: IF Dampier averages 10 points, 8 boards, and 2 blocks. IF he plays more than 50 games, and IF the Mavs get home court advantage in the first round, I will consider Dampier a good fit. I don't think any of the three is particularly realistic.

1. theres no way in hell he would make the all nba team over shaq. you cant hold that against him no one makes the all nba team over shaq.
2. again hes not gonna make an all star team over shaq or yao. no one will make an allstar game over shaq or yao.
3. he was on the warriors. that team cant help but suck. jamison never saw a playoff game either until he came to dallas.

[FineCubanCigar]

Originally posted by: chumdawg

Interesting you say that, because in his 393 career starts, those are almost exactly Damp's stats. Precisely, they are:

28.3 minutes
9.86 points
8.06 rebounds
1.77 blocks
.

Interesting, this 1 is for u ape, per 48 min. Damp roughly averages 18 points 15 rebounds and 3 blocks.... awsome.