Rangers vs. Cardinals - WORLD SERIES!

[Male30Dan]

Well, ok then. And Dirka - seriously dude? Great timing ass. Not to mention that had NOTHING to do with the loss. We set an all time World Series record for walks. THAT is why we lost this series. Those walks can be thrown in the top or bottom frame. Matters not.

Think about this game tonight. The Cardinals scored 2 runs in 2 different innings with ONE hit TOTAL. No, not 1 hit per inning, 1 TOTAL. Yes, that is, well, RIDICULOUS! Totally ridiculous.

Ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball!!! This is why we lost - plain and simple.

I guess there is next year

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by ocelot_ark

He's a horrible in game manager. He always has been. The players like him? Great. Go get someone that can make the best roster in baseball better. Not hold them back by stupid decision after stupid decision. He's a HORRIBLE manager.

He is indeed a horrible in game manager. But every single person associated with baseball will tell you that in game management is about 25% of the job. Way, WAY more important to be good at the things that we can't see. And he is excellent in those areas.

As frustrating as he is during games, Wash is in fact a GREAT manager, and calling for him to be fired is absolutely idiotic.

It's also worth noting that it's generally accepted that Maddux has a TON of input on what pitchers to bring in and when. Last night I even saw Wash turn to Maddux in the dugout and say "Go get him?" Maddux nodded and Wash hopped out the steps for a pitching change. So the poor in game management is not completely on Wash, I don't think.

Doesn't really help us any, but I thought I'd point it out.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by ocelot_ark

I don't think it was a horrific miss at all. It was a tough play. The true miss this series has been the complete disaster of a pitching staff. Not a single guy on there with any balls.

It was not a tough play at all, due to where he was positioned. He was playing very deep, and because of that is was pretty much a routine play. He took a horrible route and completely screwed up is assessment of where the wall was.

It's unfortunate that that play is what we'll remember of Nellie this post season, after such a good run in the ALCS.

[mavspwnage]

I hate sports.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

It's also worth noting that it's generally accepted that Maddux has a TON of input on what pitchers to bring in and when. Last night I even saw Wash turn to Maddux in the dugout and say "Go get him?" Maddux nodded and Wash hopped out the steps for a pitching change. So the poor in game management is not completely on Wash, I don't think.

That explains part of the poor NL management. The pitching coach was dictating the lineup changes. Have to wonder if Colby batting with the bases loaded was Maddux's doing.

[Ninkobei]

Arlington: Home of the Buffalo Rangers.

Maybe in a few years the pitching farm system will be up to scratch. OH. Best thing about the year being over - GOOD BYE CJ WILSON. Please stay away forever lol

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Ninkobei

Arlington: Home of the Buffalo Rangers.

Maybe in a few years the pitching farm system will be up to scratch. OH. Best thing about the year being over - GOOD BYE CJ WILSON. Please stay away forever lol

Considering his value has been lowered and I can't imagine a lot of teams breaking the bank to get him (lefty or not), it still seems incredibly viable he remains on the team.

[Ninkobei]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Considering his value has been lowered and I can't imagine a lot of teams breaking the bank to get him (lefty or not), it still seems incredibly viable he remains on the team.

He turned down an offer of 12 mil earlier in the year. He's still a very good regular season pitcher. Some might want to give him a chance. Also, he's not very popular because of his demeanor. Only women like him because he's attractive ;P

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Ninkobei

Arlington: Home of the Buffalo Rangers.

Maybe in a few years the pitching farm system will be up to scratch. OH. Best thing about the year being over - GOOD BYE CJ WILSON. Please stay away forever lol

I just don't understand this line of thinking. Should we happily say goodbye to everyone that had a poor post season? CJ was one of the primary reasons that we even made the playoffs. Losing him this offseason would open a major hole that has to be filled.

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Considering his value has been lowered and I can't imagine a lot of teams breaking the bank to get him (lefty or not), it still seems incredibly viable he remains on the team.

There's absolutely no reason to assume that 8 playoff starts are going to mask the great work he did over two seasons. He's going to get a huge offer.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Ninkobei

He turned down an offer of 12 mil earlier in the year. He's still a very good regular season pitcher. Some might want to give him a chance. Also, he's not very popular because of his demeanor. Only women like him because he's attractive ;P

He's not very popular because fans are hypocritical. They crave honesty from their athletes and then crucify them when they don't produce stupid cliches and platitudes to the media. CJ is a unique, thoughtful guy with a great baseball story, and the fact that this baseball community has turned on him makes me sad.

[Ninkobei]

Originally Posted by jthig32

He's not very popular because fans are hypocritical. They crave honesty from their athletes and then crucify them when they don't produce stupid cliches and platitudes to the media. CJ is a unique, thoughtful guy with a great baseball story, and the fact that this baseball community has turned on him makes me sad.

I guess man. Why pay 15 mil a year for a pitcher who plays terri-bad in the playoffs when there are so many good pitchers in the farm system. Say what you want about "CJ's awesome honesty" (he certainly isn't innocent of being a hypocrite), he's going to want too much money for the talent he offers.

[ocelot_ark]

I'd rather throw the potential $10+ million/year at Pujols and we'll REALLY out-offense everyone. Screw it.

C - Napoli
1b - Pujols
2 - Kinsler
SS - Andrus
3 - Beltre
LF - Hamilton
CF - Gentry
RF - Cruz
DH - Young

Make that lineup happen and I couldn't care less whether CJ Wilson is still on the staff. F'ing worthless in the postseason. And Michael Young needs to never see the field in a defensive position ever again. There are guys on this forum that would make some of the plays he fails to make at 1st base.

I'm still pissed, obviously.

Back to Ron Washington. What part of his great managing 75% of the time encompasses getting your team to win on the road in the playoffs? Or getting you guys in the right frame of mind at all? Obviously, something needs to change in the pitching game. Cliff Lee, as stellar as he is, struggled in the WS last year - looking oddly similar to our guys this year when the stakes were at their highest.

[Ninkobei]

@ ocelot, I think Prince Fielder is available this offseason. Dont forget they signed a #1 prospect 17mil CF last year. He'll be coming up through the minors at some point.

[Bayliss]

Are the Rangers becoming the Braves of the East?

[ocelot_ark]

Originally Posted by Ninkobei

@ ocelot, I think Prince Fielder is available this offseason. Dont forget they signed a #1 prospect 17mil CF last year. He'll be coming up through the minors at some point.

Yeah, him too. I'd rather have a stellar option at first base to bolster the offense than pay CJ wilson $10-15 million. You have to assume the Rangers would throw out feelers to Fielder and Pujols, but probably wouldn't be willing to go up to the $20's if they needed to resign CJ too. Don't resign CJ? Problem solved.

Who becomes the ace? Who cares. That offense would be intimidating as hell.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Ninkobei

I guess man. Why pay 15 mil a year for a pitcher who plays terri-bad in the playoffs when there are so many good pitchers in the farm system. Say what you want about "CJ's awesome honesty" (he certainly isn't innocent of being a hypocrite), he's going to want too much money for the talent he offers.

Not wanting to overpay him is not the same as the joy you expressed at CJ no longer being on the team.

[ocelot_ark]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Are the Rangers becoming the Braves of the East?

East?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by ocelot_ark

Back to Ron Washington. What part of his great managing 75% of the time encompasses getting your team to win on the road in the playoffs? Or getting you guys in the right frame of mind at all? Obviously, something needs to change in the pitching game. Cliff Lee, as stellar as he is, struggled in the WS last year - looking oddly similar to our guys this year when the stakes were at their highest.

Two bad games are basically meaningless in baseball. The fact that they happened in the WS is random chance. Using Lee as an example of what's wrong with the coaching staff is absurd. Do you have any idea how rare and difficult it is to make back to back World Series? Baseball in the playoffs is a freaking crap shoot of small sample size.

I realize this hurts. Trust me, it hurts me something fierce. But once you're over the hurt, this team should be celebrated for what it accomplished. And yes, there are ways to improve. But getting rid of Wash is not an improvement, and neither is getting rid of CJ. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not in favor of overpaying CJ, but him leaving is a big blow to the team, not an opportunity for improvement.

Also, it would take 20+ million a year for Pujols. Don't see that happening.

[jthig32]

Also, while the pitching, specifically the bullpen, was largely the culprit for the series, it doesn't make much sense to lament the pitching last night when the offense only scored two runs.

I need to stop doing this, it's too soon to be reliving the last two nights.

*sigh*

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by jthig32

There's absolutely no reason to assume that 8 playoff starts are going to mask the great work he did over two seasons. He's going to get a huge offer.

I think the fact he's a LHP would certainly make up for the 8 games. If he was a right-hander, it's hard to imagine "absolutely no reason" still being able to stand up, but maybe that's just my opinion.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I think the fact he's a LHP would certainly make up for the 8 games. If he was a right-hander, it's hard to imagine "absolutely no reason" still being able to stand up, but maybe that's just my opinion.

Well...why would 8 games out weight two seasons worth of performance? Is it automatically assumed that he failed because it was the playoffs? Or is it more likely that it was a mixture of him being worn out, possibly even with small injuries, and random chance?

It's not like he's never pitched a good playoff game.

Any GM that was going to offer a CJ a huge contract before the post season and now won't because of 4 bad games and 1 so-so game is not a GM I want running a team I care about.

[Kirobaito]

The worst thing about this is that for at least a month the only thing there is is the effin' Cowboys, of whom I somehow manage to be a die-hard fan without even liking them very much.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well...why would 8 games out weight two seasons worth of performance? Is it automatically assumed that he failed because it was the playoffs? Or is it more likely that it was a mixture of him being worn out, possibly even with small injuries, and random chance?

It's not like he's never pitched a good playoff game.

Any GM that was going to offer a CJ a huge contract before the post season and now won't because of 4 bad games and 1 so-so game is not a GM I want running a team I care about.

I'm not saying that the performance would totally make someone gun shy, but I can see it having a negative influence on the final numbers. If money can be made in a postseason run in any sport (and that's definitely happened), it can easily be lost on some level.

The starting point for me was the fact that he was a LHP, not an sure-fire ace but the leader of a team that won their division and was primed to make noise in the playoffs, and had a couple of good years. It was a chance to elevate his stature to the next level. The "stock" climbing to a peak. Taking that all into account would make him ripped to be in a major bidding war with high numbers.

Now, he's a LHP, not an sure-fire ace who could have issues that you listed or ran into bad luck. I'm not saying he's worse than what he was before he became a starter, but it definitely hurt the maximum amount he could have received. It might not be huge, ace numbers, but it could still lead to a healthy raise.

[Male30Dan]

For those that don't believe in momenum and what it means in sport, from the mouth of Adrian Beltre (keep in mind the quote is from after the game 7 loss):

"We all know we lost the Series yesterday," Beltre said. "We shouldn't have let it slip away. We came back today to try to win it, but the momentum just took them and they won it. It's not a nice feeling."

[Male30Dan]

I'm with Ocelot on this one... Do NOT overpay CJ and get a legitimate 1B. I agree that him leaving would definitely hurt the team, but depending on what you replace him with, you could definitely improve. Hell, look at what we did with Cliff Lee leaving after last year.

If I had my way (and I recognize this hikes the salary a decent bit - but hey, 2 trips to the World Series and a healthy TV contract pays for that), here is next year's roster (minus bench):

C - Napoli
1B - Fielder
2B - Kinsler
3B - Beltre
SS - Andrus
LF - Murphy
CF - Hamilton
RF - Cruz
DH - Young

SP - Darvish
SP - Feliz
SP - Lewis
SP - Holland
SP - Harrison

8th - Adams
9th - Ogando

Likely? Not in the least. That is two very large splashes, a closer to starter move, a LF to CF move for Josh that many aren't thrilled with, etc. But I think it would be the best club we could put out on the field every game and a club with another great chance to win it all.

Regardless, every team minus the Cardinals would be thrilled to be in our position and, frankly, considering the age of their team, for long term success they might want to be too.

This team has a lot to be proud of and while this will hurt for, well, a long time (2006/Dallas still hurts), you just have to get back on the horse. Hopefully it doesn't take this team 5 years to make peace with the situation like it did our Mavs. Of course nothing is guaranteed and they may never get this far again. That possibility is why this stings so much more. 1 strike away. That will haunt me for a while. It will surely haunt this 2011 roster for the rest of their lives.

[jthig32]

I'm really curious to see what they do with Ogando.

If they want to spend the money on Fielder I'm fine with it, but I think a 6-7 year contract would end up badly towards the end. His body type doesn't typically age well.

I think Martin is the CF by the end of next year.

Assuming the current lineup stays basically intact, and especially if the one big bat that is added is a lefty, I think you make the team a lot better if you trade Murphy for a similar player that hits from the right side.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm really curious to see what they do with Ogando.

If they want to spend the money on Fielder I'm fine with it, but I think a 6-7 year contract would end up badly towards the end. His body type doesn't typically age well.

I think Martin is the CF by the end of next year.

Assuming the current lineup stays basically intact, and especially if the one big bat that is added is a lefty, I think you make the team a lot better if you trade Murphy for a similar player that hits from the right side.

Yeah, I considered a roster with Martin at CF, but that list above took into account my expectations game 1. Many would prefer Josh stay in LF and that would likely mean Gentry starting the year out there - or possibly even Martin if they feel the need to do with him what they did with Andrus. We shall see.

Simply must improve 1B though. We definitely improve the Catcher position by having Napoli play 80% of the games back there. Definitely need to get his bat in more games though so not sure what to do with Young. Don't know that he can learn ANOTHER position and get out in LF with Hamilton sliding to CF on the days that they want Torrealba at C but don't want to sit Napoli. Good problem to have.

[Ninkobei]

Guys guys, Holland will be the ace next year. Put that into your predictions.
Fielder is only 27. So even if he doesnt age well he could be a power house for the next 5 years..
I wonder about Young. 17 mil per year seems really high for a DH. I wouldnt want to see him go, but I get a feeling that he might be going.

[Male30Dan]

Holland might well become the ace, damn sure has the talent. We'll see if he can grow up and learn to be consistent. Of course if Darvish does happen to join the team, he would absolutely have some of the best stuff on our staff and be a legitimate ace. Darvish's 2011 season: 1.44 ERA, 10.7 K/9, 1.4 BB/9, and 0.19 HR/9 in 232 innings.

To put that in perspective, Lewis' 2008 Hiroshima season: 2.68 ERA, 9.25 K/9, 1.37 BB/9 and 0.61 HR/9 in 178 innings. His 2009 season: 2.96 ERA, 9.49 K/9, 0.97 BB/9 and 0.66 HR/9 in 176 1/3 innings. Darvish will be very expensive though. Likely about 110M total commitment with posting and contract over 5-6 years. Definitely cheaper to keep CJ, but I think he is a much better pitcher and younger.

As far as Young, him leaving would hurt for sure and in more ways than just on-field production. Really hope that doesn't happen, especially after he played his tail off this past year with time at several positions. Really, really stepped up for us and was a terrific leader.

He just needs to be a full-time DH while subbing in other positions when those players need a part-time day off. MIGHT have to learn LF if we have hopes of him playing 150-155 games again because we HAVE to get Napoli's bat in the lineup practically every game. No splitting the C duties with Torrealba anymore. Torrealba should only start when Napoli is being given the day off defensively.

[jthig32]

Can't see Young going anywhere with his complete no trade in place, unless he throws another hissy fit.

I'm curious to see if the Ranger look at offers for Torrealba. He's a starting quality catcher. Just depends on how many games they want Napoli to catch I guess.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Can't see Young going anywhere with his complete no trade in place, unless he throws another hissy fit.

I'm curious to see if the Ranger look at offers for Torrealba. He's a starting quality catcher. Just depends on how many games they want Napoli to catch I guess.

Yeah, trading Torrealba was something I thought of during the playoffs actually. Thought that if he wasn't good enough to depend on in multiple pinch-hit situations where Wash used someone else instead of him, does he have a role on this team next year with Napoli obviously scheduled to get the lion's share of games behind the plate. You still need a dependable backup catcher in case Napoli goes down and Torrealba provides great insurance, but another quality bullpen arm or, as someone previously suggested, a RH utility outfielder (preferably with some pop) could prove quite useful.

Wonder what Torrealba could net us...

[Ninkobei]

Napoli's great but he shouldnt be over-exposed. He had one of his best years in Texas because he was given so much time off. That is the problem they ran into in LA. I say give him 100 games during the year (bring up a good prospect catcher, Torrealba might be okay) and save him for the playoffs.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Well, now you little bitches understand the drawbacks as well as the perks of the 2-3-2 format.

You're right, brah. Nobody understood it before. We've joined you in the ranks of the enlightened, brah.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Ninkobei

Napoli's great but he shouldnt be over-exposed. He had one of his best years in Texas because he was given so much time off. That is the problem they ran into in LA. I say give him 100 games during the year (bring up a good prospect catcher, Torrealba might be okay) and save him for the playoffs.

Don't agree at all. You actually want the guy to play in 13 games LESS than he did last year??? Sheesh.

Give him: 1) 120 games at C with Torrealba getting the other 42, 2) 20 games at DH with Young resting someone at 1B/2B/3B/LF those days (or given an off day himself) and 3) 5 games at 1B resting hopefully Fielder. The rest he will be given off full days. I say give him 145 games of 162 if he stays healthy.

That is roughly 75% of his games played at C, which is less than I initially wanted, but having thought about it, would be fine with Young's ability to move around. He is just too good after finally turning a corner here in TX. Play the man.

[Ninkobei]

Originally Posted by Male30Dan

Don't agree at all. You actually want the guy to play in 13 games LESS than he did last year??? Sheesh.

Give him: 1) 120 games at C with Torrealba getting the other 42, 2) 20 games at DH with Young resting someone at 1B/2B/3B/LF those days (or given an off day himself) and 3) 5 games at 1B resting hopefully Fielder. The rest he will be given off full days. I say give him 145 games of 162 if he stays healthy.

That is roughly 75% of his games played at C, which is less than I initially wanted, but having thought about it, would be fine with Young's ability to move around. He is just too good after finally turning a corner here in TX. Play the man.

I know this is kind of a small sampling size, but Napoli played over 114 games once in his career. He played 140 games and his BA shrunk down to .238. Now the previous year he played 114 times for a .272 avg.

The guy just flat out gets gassed. And understandably so. Catching is a rough job. Why else would Wash put him at 1st base for a game in the WS? But you are right that 100 games may be too few. I would not be surprised if he played roughly the same number of games as he did this year.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Ninkobei

I know this is kind of a small sampling size, but Napoli played over 114 games once in his career. He played 140 games and his BA shrunk down to .238. Now the previous year he played 114 times for a .272 avg.

The guy just flat out gets gassed. And understandably so. Catching is a rough job. Why else would Wash put him at 1st base for a game in the WS? But you are right that 100 games may be too few. I would not be surprised if he played roughly the same number of games as he did this year.

Yes, a very, very small sample size. Bottom line, he had a bad year. It started bad and ended bad. He didn't start off great and fall off as you are suggesting a long grind would cause - he just had a bad year. Hell, he ended April hitting .167.

As far as why we played him at 1B - you realize he played a lot of 1B this year right (and a lot last year with LA)? The purpose was to get the black hole Moreland off the field, get Torrealba in and still have Young at DH. Sure, they could have moved Young to 1B and Napoli to DH (and they did) but the point is that this was more about getting the best lineup on the field than it was about keeping Napoli rested. Washington had no worry about resting Napoli during the games he did play because there were so many he didn't play. If Napoli doesn't play, at an absolute minimum (barring injuries), 130 games next year - I would be completely surprised.

Prior to last year I claimed Young would play 40 games at 1B and was basically called ridiculous. The trade for Napoli prevented him from reaching that specific number (Napoli played 35 games at 1B himself), but even with that considered, Young defended first 36 times.

I'm telling you, unless we fail to sign a stud 1B, which I really don't expect happens, he WILL have to end up playing that many games at C and he WILL play too well to take off that many games next year. Again, if he doesn't play 130, color me very surprised. At this point, it is like assuming Kinsler would sit for 50 games next year - Nap just proved to be too important to this team and is now an absolute starter. Sure, he gets more rest than most due to his position, but he isn't a part-time player anymore.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

You're right, brah. Nobody understood it before. We've joined you in the ranks of the enlightened, brah.

Yeah, brah. Series is pretty much over after five games, brah.

[xrobx]

Let's all act like adults, take a deep breath, agree to disagree and just let it go.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by xrobx

Let's all act like adults, take a deep breath, agree to disagree and just let it go.

That was attempted 4 pages back...

[Ninkobei]

World series is over, please continue the arguing in the new Rangers Offseason thread when it gets created in a month ;D problem solved.