What should we do this summer: a poll

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by jthig32

This perception that Joe Johnson shoots a ton of 20ft jumpers in patently false. It's true that Iggy is a better slasher, but Joe Johnson is hardly simply a jump shooter. Joe Johnson is a big dude for a pretty mobile shooting guard, and you know what that translates into? POSTUPS. The thing people around here are always crying for. Iggy is an all or nothing guy. He's either making a dunk or shooting long 2's and 3's.

Johnson is a much more rounded offensive player who gets his shots from a variety of positions on the floor. I've been poking around Hoopdata looking at where both players get their shot attempts, and it's just further driven home my opinion that Johson is the superior player and better fit for this team. Slashers are nice, but they are almost always more reliant on their teammates for buckets. And yes Joe Johnson takes his fair share of jump shots, but he's hardly a player in the mold of, say, Jason Terry. He's much more well rounded than that.

Also, while he's certainly not in Iguadala's class, I would consider Johnson to be a capable defender.

I also don't understand why people have this notion that Joe Johnson isn't going anywhere. I personally think he's pretty unlikely to go back to Atlanta.

I will end this post with two pictures that I think tell an important story

Johnson doesn't shoot a lot of 20 footers? Five 16-23 footers and 4.5 threes per game. Butler shoots six 16-23 footers.

Let's not think I'm entirely against Joe Johnson, and that I'm going to take every chance I can get to bash him. He's a better player than Butler and Iggy because he scores more. Why does he score more? He has a good jump shot, better than Butler's and way better than Iggy's.

However, the stats show he shoots more jumpers than both Iggy and Butler. We've complained about Caron not driving enough...Johnson shoots less. I understand he'll make more than Caron. But it would sure be nice to get someone who could drive more.

I'm not debating that Johnson can't drive. He has some abilities. And yes, he does shoot more jumpers closer to the basket than the other people we mentioned, indicating a drive and pull, or a post up. But at the end of the day, about 80% of his shots are jumpers and about 70% of Butler's and Iggy's shots are jumpers. Over 82 games that's a significant difference.

There is the Iguodala issue. I'm not advocating we go get him. I've said he might fit, not that I necessarily want him. He can't shoot threes well...that's a problem when you have Marion and (possibly) Butler also at the 3. Not only threes he shoots poorly...overall he's not the greatest shooter. He doesn't drive as much as I thought (I was hoping he'd be about 35% drive, he's at 29%). But I think we could make him fit with Dirk and Butler if that's the best trade we can make (a trade for Iggy), because I know Johnson and Wade aren't going to be easy to come by.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Johnson doesn't shoot a lot of 20 footers? Five 16-23 footers and 4.5 threes per game. Butler shoots six 16-23 footers.

Johnson attempted 4.8 16-23ft jumpers and 4.3 threes.

Iggy attempted 4.3 and 3.7

And Johnson attempted four more attempts total per game.

In fact, if you actually run the numbers, jump shots from 16ft and out (including threes) made up a higher percentage of Iggy's game than JJ's (57% vs 50%).

Now, Iggy also shoots a lot (and very, very well) at the rim, but he is all or nothing. He either drives to the bucket or shoots long jumpers (poorly). While Johnson is more versatile.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Johnson attempted 4.8 16-23ft jumpers and 4.3 threes.

Iggy attempted 4.3 and 3.7

And Johnson attempted four more attempts total per game.

In fact, if you actually run the numbers, jump shots from 16ft and out (including threes) made up a higher percentage of Iggy's game than JJ's (57% vs 50%).

Now, Iggy also shoots a lot (and very, very well) at the rim, but he is all or nothing. He either drives to the bucket or shoots long jumpers (poorly). While Johnson is more versatile.

I don't like Iggy's lack of outside game, not at all. I like the fact JJ may not drive much, but gets close jumpers.

My question is this: which would adjust better to coming to Dallas. Who could take the best advantage of the doubles on Dirk or the ball movement by Kidd or the drive and kicks by Roddy? I'd think Iggy start driving more, because he has an attack mentality. Johnson seems to have a jump shot mentality.

Personally, I'd prefer a player who can slash, cut and finish strong over a spot up jump shooters, because the former is much harder to find.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by tcat075

I don't like Iggy's lack of outside game, not at all. I like the fact JJ may not drive much, but gets close jumpers.

My question is this: which would adjust better to coming to Dallas. Who could take the best advantage of the doubles on Dirk or the ball movement by Kidd or the drive and kicks by Roddy? I'd think Iggy start driving more, because he has an attack mentality. Johnson seems to have a jump shot mentality.

Personally, I'd prefer a player who can slash, cut and finish strong over a spot up jump shooters, because the former is much harder to find.

And I'm more interested in having a player that can create offense himself. Johnson CAN spot up for the jump shot, making him a better fit to play off a player like Dirk, but he can also create his own offense, which would take more pressure off Dirk.

If they were the same level of player, I could maybe see the argument in getting the player better at attacking the rim, but they're not, so give me the better player who still fits pretty well.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by jthig32

And I'm more interested in having a player that can create offense himself. Johnson CAN spot up for the jump shot, making him a better fit to play off a player like Dirk, but he can also create his own offense, which would take more pressure off Dirk.

If they were the same level of player, I could maybe see the argument in getting the player better at attacking the rim, but they're not, so give me the better player who still fits pretty well.

Just out of curiosity...what is an Igoudala drive? Is that not creating his own offense? Sometimes the lane will open up because of a drive and kick, or passing around the horn, but most of the time a drive would be considered creating his own offense.

I mean, Butler could create his own offense. Butler in isolation was a solid offensive option for us on some nights. But he's under the bus now. So is someone who can create his own offense what we really need? Or do we need someone who adds the most to our team by giving us strengths in the team's areas of weakness?

[KINGBEEF]

Kirk Hinrich for the Jet???

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Just out of curiosity...what is an Igoudala drive? Is that not creating his own offense? Sometimes the lane will open up because of a drive and kick, or passing around the horn, but most of the time a drive would be considered creating his own offense.

I mean, Butler could create his own offense. Butler in isolation was a solid offensive option for us on some nights. But he's under the bus now. So is someone who can create his own offense what we really need? Or do we need someone who adds the most to our team by giving us strengths in the team's areas of weakness?

But Johnson's offense is not just for himself. To be fair, neither is Iguodala's, he's a pretty darn good passer. But so is Johnson, and he creates MORE offense because he's a much better offensive player. Andre Iguodala is barely an offensive upgrade over Butler, if one at all. And he's an especially terrible fit to play alongside Marion. Why would you make it a priority to acquire a player that would fit terribly with one of your primary rotation members?

I have to say, I'm pretty confounded by the continued notion that Johnson adds to this team's reliance on jump shooting and Iggy doesn't. I've just shown the stats, they're both equally reliant on long jump shots. So when they are throwing up the long jump shots that they take in relatively equal numbers (percentage wise), Johnson shoots a higher percentage. And when they're not shooting long jumpers, Johnson is posting up and Iggy is driving to the rim. And on the whole Johnson is a more prolific and more well rounded scorer.

I'll say this again...if they're equal overall players then I'm willing to discuss how they fit. But when one is a significantly better player than the other, which is the case here, I'm not really considering fit unless the much better one is a terrible fit (see Bosh vs Johnson).

It would be somewhat like saying you want Wade over Lebron because Wade's a much better fit. Not to quite that magnitude, but I think it's a decent example.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by jthig32

But Johnson's offense is not just for himself. To be fair, neither is Iguodala's, he's a pretty darn good passer. But so is Johnson, and he creates MORE offense because he's a much better offensive player. Andre Iguodala is barely an offensive upgrade over Butler, if one at all. And he's an especially terrible fit to play alongside Marion. Why would you make it a priority to acquire a player that would fit terribly with one of your primary rotation members?

I have to say, I'm pretty confounded by the continued notion that Johnson adds to this team's reliance on jump shooting and Iggy doesn't. I've just shown the stats, they're both equally reliant on long jump shots. So when they are throwing up the long jump shots that they take in relatively equal numbers (percentage wise), Johnson shoots a higher percentage. And when they're not shooting long jumpers, Johnson is posting up and Iggy is driving to the rim. And on the whole Johnson is a more prolific and more well rounded scorer.

I'll say this again...if they're equal overall players then I'm willing to discuss how they fit. But when one is a significantly better player than the other, which is the case here, I'm not really considering fit unless the much better one is a terrible fit (see Bosh vs Johnson).

It would be somewhat like saying you want Wade over Lebron because Wade's a much better fit. Not to quite that magnitude, but I think it's a decent example.

Well, my main thinking is that Iguodala has more of a driving, slashing mentality. If he came to a place with a passing point guard, a big needing to be doubled...all the stuff we'd talk about...he'd be able to drive more and shot less jumpers. He does shot a lot of jumpers this year, but he's on a bad team without other people to create. No, I can't prove a player's mentality, but I do find it interesting that in the 08-09 season, Iggy's splits were much more drive heavy: 64%/36%. And remember, Iggy had some injury problems this year

Johnson, in my opinion, has a shooter's mentality. And he can shoot. And he can hit tough, contested shots. All of that. Bit in 08-09, Johnson shot even more jumpers: 80%/20% split. That's why I think he's going to shoot jumpers no matter the situation. He doesn't have the driving ability that Iguodala has...maybe Iguodala doesn't do it enough, but there is no doubt Iguodala is better at it.

And I think Iggy and JJ aren't as far apart as you think. Yes, JJ is a better scorer overall (1.5 more PPG over his career, 4 more PPG last year). But Iggy is a better rebounder, better passer, better defender, is younger, and actually shoots a higher percentage from the floor over his career.

So I'll be honest. Straight up, JJ or Iggy? But trades are never straight up and considering the players that would have to be given up for one or the other, and considering all the other factors that go into the decision making, I'd rather the Mavericks pursue Iguodala.