European Sophistication

[madape]

Our self-described intellectual and cultural superiors in Europe are once again putting their sophistication on display. Soccer spectators in Spain regularly ridicule opposing black players by making monkey grunts whenever they touch the ball.

Can you imagine something like this ever happening in America? Me neither.

Why England should have walked last night

By walking off the pitch last night, Sven-Goran Eriksson's side would have struck a blow against the racism that's still far too prevalent in the European game, argues Paul Doyle

The England team had a ready-made answer to the Spanish racists who piled into the Bernabeu last night to grunt monkey noises at their black players: to walk off the pitch in protest.By doing so, Sven-Goran Eriksson's side could have taken the lead in the fight against a malignancy that has infested stadiums all over Europe in recent years - a malignancy that Uefa has shown itself to be unable or unwilling to eradicate.

Whether the goons that make malevolent monkey chants are inspired by some warped creed or merely an ignorant fad, decent fans and players are entitled to ask why they have to suffer this nonsense in silence. It is time to act.

In cases where only a fistful of buffoons are guilty, the police should take action (whether they actually will or not is another matter). But when thousands are inciting or revelling in hatred, there's not much the police can immediately do without risking a riot. So good old Gandhi-style peaceful protest is what's called for - and the only ones who have the power to do that are the referee or the teams.

(Aside: it would be interesting to know if any members of the Spanish FA thought of using the PA system last night to appeal for an end to the taunts ... or did they all take an Aragones-esque line that the racism is merely a clever motivational tactic).

It is perhaps asking too much of a referee to show such unprecedented decisiveness given the haughty negligence of Fifa and Uefa on the matter. But for the players, who are both irreplaceable and more numerous, it can be different. That's why the England team could - and should - have broken noble new ground last night.

Eriksson's side have previously shown their solidarity by refusing en masse to talk to the media when press criticism breached basic rules of dignity and again, earlier this week, by pointedly wearing anti-racism T-shirts. If one player, or indeed the manager, had suggested taking a stand, there's a strong chance all would have marched together. The result? Offending fans would have got some urgently-needed food for thought, and the Spanish FA and Uefa would have been forced to act.

How they decided to act would be up to them (and how it affected Madrid's Olympic bid would be up to the IOC), of course. But at least England would have ensured that the game's authorities couldn't continue to effectively ignore the massive, systematic racial abuse that goes on throughout the European game.

And if every other team in the EU - whether or not they have black players in it - was equally forthright, fans would - hopefully - wise up. Or at least shut up.

[mavsman]

You mean because in America, people are not being booed because of their looks, but because of their beliefs, or because of which country they come from, like Dirk beeing booed in March 03? Face it, jerks are everywhere and there's an even better chance to find some of 'em in a sports-arena or in a crowded bar all around the world. Jerks fear and thus despise what they don't know (see your example) and jerks fear and despise what the do know (just walk in any bar on either side of eg the swedish-finnish, peruvian-bolivian, singaporean-malaysian or french-german border) and you're gonna find out, that it's nothing more than jerks being jerks spanning the globe. And believe me, none of them is a "self-described intellectual".

[Ninkobei]

Civil war, anybody?

[madape]

Americans booed Mahmoud Abdul Rauf because he turned his back on the flag during the singing of the national anthem, not simply because he's a muslim.

There is a big difference betwteen booing someone becuase they hate what your country represents and making monkey sounds to ridicule black people. A HUGE difference.

Racism and bigotry still exist in America, but it's been maybe 50 years since it's been even close to being socially acceptable. Not so in Europe, it appears. In Europe, racism and antisemitism go completley unchecked by society. Only England seems appaled by the actions of their backwards-ass neightbors. It's the ignorance of Europe coupled with their contempt for America's perceived lack of sophistication that is so appalling.

[dude1394]

I think Mavsman is right. We should boo all liberals.

[mavsman]

There is absolutely no difference. The basic reason for hate is fear. Fear of what you don't know. Whether it's a different color of skin or a different religion (in Abdul-Rauf's case Islam). It doesn't matter. What I wanted to say is that I utterly despise those wankers in Madrid as much as the neo-nazis that frequent the italian soccer-league games, but you just can't extrapolate from such a small group of idiots to a whole continent, otherwise you'd end up believing all Americans were criminals or at least biased racists when it comes to imprisonment, which we all know you are not.

[madape]

Don't feed me that horseshit. Mahmoud abdul rauf wouldn't have been booed if he hand't shown outward disrespect to the American flag... and don't beleive the crap he's spewing that not standing during the anthem is behavior dictated by his religion. There are hundreds of thousands of muslims in this country who LOVE America and who would be proud to stand and salute the flag. There is nothing in the Quran that prohibits the man from standing during the anthem. period. And you are a fool for beleiving that line of crap. This was a choice he made because he hated what the American flag stood for. He hated America for political reasons ONLY. It's perfectly acceptable to boo someone for being an America hating asshole, which is what this bitch is.

What you can't do is boo people for being born, which essentially what people do when they disrespect someone based on the color of thier skin. I wouldn't expect a European to understand that, of course. The only civil rights that seems to matter in Europe are those of the murderous jihadists. All I can say to that is "good luck" with all that. Just don't look for America for sympathy when someone stabs a 30 page manifesto into your daughter's dead body.

[mavsman]

You still owe me the answer as to why Dirk has been booed back in march 03, even in Dallas. Maybe it had something to do with him being born German? And in fact I would expect an American to be able to answer that, cause I don't generalize, I leave that to the nazis and the mulletheads. Good luck to you and your black and white shades. Btw, why wouldn't you touch those imprisonment stats?

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: mavsman
There is absolutely no difference. The basic reason for hate is fear. Fear of what you don't know. Whether it's a different color of skin or a different religion (in Abdul-Rauf's case Islam). It doesn't matter. What I wanted to say is that I utterly despise those wankers in Madrid as much as the neo-nazis that frequent the italian soccer-league games, but you just can't extrapolate from such a small group of idiots to a whole continent, otherwise you'd end up believing all Americans were criminals or at least biased racists when it comes to imprisonment, which we all know you are not.

There is no difference? What in the hell are you talking about? I would have been just as pissed if it would have been a white Baptist male named Tom Smith. It is not about fear. It is about Abdul-Rauf having absolutely no respect for the nation that has done so much for him....a nation that has allowed him to make a freaking living throwing a little ball through a hoop.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: mavsman
You still owe me the answer as to why Dirk has been booed back in march 03, even in Dallas. Maybe it had something to do with him being born German? And in fact I would expect an American to be able to answer that, cause I don't generalize, I leave that to the nazis and the mulletheads. Good luck to you and your black and white shades. Btw, why wouldn't you touch those imprisonment stats?

When was Dirk booed? You're not exactly specific when you say March 03.

[mavsman]

It started against the Clippers. But, hey, it doesn't stop there: Looka here (scroll down to #9), or here if you can read German, but there's always babelfish. I still don't get why you want to build barriers when they aren't even existing. The differences are not between cultures, but between idiots and people in the know.

[dude1394]

Speaking of all this. Has anyone noticed that ALL(at least I think all) of the mavs have their hands over their hearts during the national anthem these days? It's been pretty durn cool. I don't know if it's a team decided thing or what,but the suns didn't do it so I don't think it's an NBA thing.

[madape]

I really have no idea what you're talking about mavsman. I've never heard of anyone booing Dirk. Certainly not "just because he's German". Like I said, there are some wacko racists in America, just as there are in Europe. But it's becoming clear to me that racism, anti-semitism and intolerance are running rampant in parts of Europe. America grew out of that bit of ignorance years ago. There is no way in HELL an American crowd would ever make monkey sounds at black people. It's just not socially acceptable here. Likewise, it's not socially acceptable to call Dirk a Nazi. I would anticiapte that if anyone ever taunted him during a game by calling him Hitler, or kraut, that person would promplty get his ass kicked.. or at least be escorted out of the arena by security. That shit doesn't fly here in America as it does in the hallowed ground of Europe. It's a moral gap, I suppose. But don't let the Europeans tell you that. To them, America is the backwoods empire run by idiots and racists. Excuse me if I don't hold the same opinion.

[Fidel]

Big fuss about nothing. The regular soccer crowd in europe is completely different from the regular NBA attendance (especially that in the expensive lower bowls where someone might get attention if he called Dirk a Nazi or something during a game). At soccer games there are so called "fan blocks" in the arena. Those sections don´t have seats, which means everybodys standing the whole game. The places are very cheap. The people in those fan blocks stricly support the home team (might be a national team or a club team). Some of them are just hardcore soccer fans, some of them are ultras which takes it a step further, and some of them are hooligans who aren´t really interested in the game but mostly in violence. Well and some of the ulras or hools also happen to be nationalists and/or racists. You´ll find those people in every country in the world. The difference regarding the topic of this thread is that those kind of people in the US don´t use sporting events/teams as a stage to act stupid and as an object of identification. They wouldn´t get into an NBA arena anyways. That has allways been a difference between US and European sport. The european fan scene (in soccer but also in other sports) is much more radical and violent. And also much more "working class" then your average NBA attendance.

Edit: and this whole thing in itself is just laughable. Fans, clubs, players and media in the UK are among the most fanatic, radical and rassistic in Europe. Not too long ago a couple of players from leeds United (two of them were national players) beat the shit out of an vietnamese. English fans are among the most radical and nationalistic in europe. That´s where the whole hooligan thing comes from. English clubs were banished for five years from european play in the 80`s because of some incindents with fans that culminated in the catastrophe in Brüssel in 1985. It was the euro club champions final between italian Juventus and english FC Liverpool. English hooligans broke into the italian fan block. In the resulting brawl and mass panic 39 people were killed.

[mavsman]

Good thing you heard nothing about Dirk being booed, madape. I wish I hadn't as well. Has been discussed here, but I'm not in a google mode tonight. I'm also glad that an American crowd would never make monkey sounds, but, hey, the goalkeeper of the German national soccer team has to live with that and with bananas being thrown at him for the last 8 years. And he's as blonde as they come. It has nothing to do with people being racists, but - as I said - with people being idiots. And idiots come in all facets and with all passports. Btw, I didn't see it on TV, was there a fight between players and the crowd in Detroit today? Guess you'd make a topic out of it had that happened in Europe, or am I wrong here?

[Fidel]

Just a snippet from Marc Steins column about the Pistons-Idiana fight. Stein obviously knows what the euro soccer hooliganism is about:

You can expect organizational sanctions for the Pistons, whose fans -- not all of them, of course, but far too many -- behaved disgracefully. Much of the behavior was actually worse than soccer hooliganism, because soccer hooligans are often plain, old hooligans who pretend to be soccer fans just to have an outlet to cause trouble.

So what to learn from the fight in Detroit? There are obviously some idiots in every sports arena around the world. Maybe the next attempt to bash europe and/or germany will be more successfull.

[mavsman55]

mavsman, You have to realize what you're standing for here. The booing of Mahmoud Abdul Rauf had nothing to do with him being a muslim. It had much to do, however, with him turning his back on the flag of the country that has done so much for him. It's Anti-American, and as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't deserve to be playing for a country if he won't show any dang respect for it.

[madape]

The criticism is based on the social acceptance of racism as a massive level in Europe. I understand that alchohol riles people up and causes them to be aggressive and confrontational. What it doesn't do is turn people into racist bigots. Those are qualities ingrained in someone's consiousness. Either you are a racist or you aren't. Alchohol has nothing to do with someone having the opinion that blacks are monkeys worth ridicule. Sadly, many in Europe haven't learned the difference between blacks and humans. More importantly, those who do know the difference don't care enough to speak out.

[Arne]

Oh my god...madape, you don't know what you are talking about. The difference is only that it's a lot easier to go to a soccer game, than it is to go to a NBA game. In Europe people who live on the street (and won't call themselfs intellectuals....) and haven't got any money can go to a game for something like 5 Dollars. It's obvious that people like them are more likely to do such aweful things.

The second point is, that you're a lot more anonymous, when you're in at a soccer game, than at a NBA game. The cameras won't catch you.

And above all:



It's really, really cheap to judge Europe just because of sport events. You should know better.