Biden isn't really an expert, he just plays one on TV - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

kg_veteran · 10-07-2008, 09:38 AM

Biden, the master gasbag

The vice presidential candidate isn't really an expert, he just plays one on TV.

Jonah Goldberg

October 7, 2008 - link

Last Thursday's vice presidential debate was the most revealing, and depressing, event of the entire campaign because it showed how irredeemably fraudulent America's political class is and how superficial the voters who will decide this election are.

Recall, if you will, that going into the debate, the conventional wisdom was that Gov. Sarah Palin would be woefully outgunned by Sen. Joe Biden. A self-touted foreign policy expert and constitutional law professor, Biden joined the Senate some time after the Cretaceous period but well before bell bottoms went out of style.

As we know, the conventional wisdom was wrong. Palin wasn't stellar. But she crushed those low expectations, salvaged her political career and turned herself back into an asset for the McCain campaign.

But what about Biden? Overwhelmingly, the professional political class proclaimed that he blew her away on "specifics" and "knowledge" and "seriousness." The New York Times said Biden avoided making any gaffes, "while showing a clear grasp of the big picture and the details." The Wall Street Journal's Gerald Seib proclaimed on ABC's "This Week" that Biden avoided any "verbal excesses or rhetorical flourishes."

The Associated Press called Biden the "master senator ... rattling off foreign policy details with ease."

And that's true in a sense. Biden was at ease; he easily rattled off a string of falsehoods and gasbaggeries.

According to the master senator, the U.S. and France "kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon." Afterward, according to Biden, "I said and Barack said, 'Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't know -- if you don't, Hezbollah will control it.' " Perhaps Biden meant to say the U.S. and France kicked Syria out of Lebanon. But even this is woefully glib. Syria never fully abandoned Lebanon. And there was no "vacuum" for Hezbollah to fill. The terrorist group was already firmly in control of southern Lebanon and part of the government. No one remembers Biden and Obama fighting for the stupidly impossible NATO move either.

Biden insisted it's "just simply not true" that Obama has said he'd "sit down with [Iranian President Mahmoud] Ahmadinejad," even though in the primaries Biden criticized Obama for exactly that.

Biden bragged about how he and Obama have focused on Pakistan, insisting that "Pakistan's weapons can already hit Israel and the Mediterranean." Um, no. Their missiles don't get halfway there.

The constitutional law professor scornfully mocked Dick Cheney because the vice president "doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president. That's the executive branch." Wrong. Article I defines the Legislature, Article II the executive branch. Both define the role of the VP.

He flatly said that McCain voted with Obama on a tax hike. He didn't. He said McCain's healthcare plan amounted to a tax hike. It doesn't. Biden said we "must" drill for oil, but that ain't how he's voted. He said he's for clean coal, but just this month he passionately insisted to a voter that "we're not supporting clean coal" and vowed "no coal plants here in America." The scrapper from Scranton boasted about bonding with the common folks at a restaurant that's been closed for two decades.

Now, Palin had her own problems. She failed to answer direct questions directly. She offered up some obviously canned one-liners.

But here's the difference. Palin is supposed to be everything Biden isn't, according to liberal pundits and mainstream reporters alike. For weeks they've been saying she's ill-prepared, uninformed and lacks the requisite experience. But that criticism is also an excuse of sorts.

Biden has no excuse. He's been in the majors for nearly 40 years, and yet he sounds like a bizarro-world Chauncey Gardner. The famous simpleton from Jerzy Kosinski's "Being There" (played by Peter Sellers in the film) offered terse aphorisms that were utterly devoid of specific content but nonetheless seemed to describe reality accurately. Biden is the reverse: He offers a logorrheic farrago of "specifics" that have no connection to our corner of the space-time continuum.

In short, he just makes stuff up. But he does it with passionate, self-important intensity. He's like a politician in a movie with a perfect grasp of a world that doesn't exist. He's not an expert, he just plays one on TV.

No one seems to care. He convinced the focus groups he's an expert. The media, with a few exceptions, let it all slide. But imagine if Palin had made any of these gaffes. It would be incontrovertible proof that her critics are right.

Palin "lost" because she's bad at being a dishonest politician. Biden won because he is, after all, a "master senator."

mcsluggo · 10-07-2008, 10:48 AM

Republicans are going to KILL themselves in the long term trying to sell this lemon.

(by the lemon, I mean Palin. obviously)

Nobody buys the arguments, and the salespeople just start to come across looking like cartoon character snake oil scheisters.

Mavdog · 10-07-2008, 10:52 AM

goldberg needs a fact checker himself.

pakistan's missles can reach israel, they have a range of 2000 km.
this story has a map showing the range

mccain's healthcare plan does increase taxes. he will make the coverage taxable income of the employee, to be compensated by a tax credit. at best that will be a wash, most likely it will result in higher tax liability for the worker.

we've been over the cheney stuff, those who support cheney agree with goldberg, those who don't...

palin looked like a person out of her league because she is. for all of biden's misstatements he clearly has a better grasp of the issues than palin.

the chauncey gardner reference is pretty funny. "I like to watch.."

kg_veteran · 10-07-2008, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

Republicans are going to KILL themselves in the long term trying to sell this lemon.

(by the lemon, I mean Palin. obviously)

Nobody buys the arguments, and the salespeople just start to come across looking like cartoon character snake oil scheisters.

I'm glad you can speak for everybody. Notably, no rebuttal about Biden.

92bDad · 10-07-2008, 11:06 AM

Between McCain and Obama, nobody can argue that McCain has the edge in terms of experience, in terms of National Defense, and given the facts coming out regularly about the financial crisis, it's now easy to see that McCain has the edge on the economy.

What Obama has is the Media...win the media and you win the hype. Outside of that, I can't find a single redeaming quality in Obama.

Between Biden and Palin, yes, Biden is the more season politician. He, like Obama has figured out how to smooze the media and pull the wool over undecided voters.

Palin on the other hand has more experience as an executive leader...actually she has more experience than all three of the other candidates. Is she 'Worldly' experienced? Is she experienced on smoozing as other politicians...sure she could use some work, but if her negative is that she has more integrity and is more honest than Biden...then sure, I'ld vote for Palin.

For some reason, I see a country of Sheep who are following the liberal mis-representations all the way to election day. It's a bit sad, and I can only Pray that this is NOT the first stage towards the destruction of America.

For the conservative movement to truly work and rebel against the Liberal Communism, we must work to put Conservative values back into our education system. But I'm not sure this is possible...we live in a society of the quick fix, no longer do we have true patriots that are willing to sacrifice for the good of tomorrow.

This is not generation "X" or "Y"...but rather Generatiion ME.

This is the generation that lives the motto:

"Ask not what you can do for your country, but ask your country what it can do for you...and if you don't like it, then demand it as a right of entitlement"

kg_veteran · 10-07-2008, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavdog

goldberg needs a fact checker himself.

pakistan's missles can reach israel, they have a range of 2000 km.
this story has a map showing the range

That map is wrong. It's more like 2000 miles from Pakistan to Israel.

More on the rest later. Have to run to a meeting...

mcsluggo · 10-07-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 92bDad

Between McCain and Obama, nobody can argue that McCain has the edge in terms of experience, in terms of National Defense, and given the facts coming out regularly about the financial crisis, it's now easy to see that McCain has the edge on the economy.

What Obama has is the Media...win the media and you win the hype. Outside of that, I can't find a single redeaming quality in Obama.

Between Biden and Palin, yes, Biden is the more season politician. He, like Obama has figured out how to smooze the media and pull the wool over undecided voters.

Palin on the other hand has more experience as an executive leader...actually she has more experience than all three of the other candidates. Is she 'Worldly' experienced? Is she experienced on smoozing as other politicians...sure she could use some work, but if her negative is that she has more integrity and is more honest than Biden...then sure, I'ld vote for Palin.

For some reason, I see a country of Sheep who are following the liberal mis-representations all the way to election day. It's a bit sad, and I can only Pray that this is NOT the first stage towards the destruction of America.

For the conservative movement to truly work and rebel against the Liberal Communism, we must work to put Conservative values back into our education system. But I'm not sure this is possible...we live in a society of the quick fix, no longer do we have true patriots that are willing to sacrifice for the good of tomorrow.

This is not generation "X" or "Y"...but rather Generatiion ME.

This is the generation that lives the motto:

"Ask not what you can do for your country, but ask your country what it can do for you...and if you don't like it, then demand it as a right of entitlement"

Sometimes I honestly wonder if you are doing some sort of "performance art"... playing a character in a grand skit where the rest of us are just stage-props.

Mavdog · 10-07-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 92bDad

Between McCain and Obama, nobody can argue that McCain has the edge in terms of experience, in terms of National Defense, and given the facts coming out regularly about the financial crisis, it's now easy to see that McCain has the edge on the economy.

What Obama has is the Media...win the media and you win the hype. Outside of that, I can't find a single redeaming quality in Obama.

Between Biden and Palin, yes, Biden is the more season politician. He, like Obama has figured out how to smooze the media and pull the wool over undecided voters.

Palin on the other hand has more experience as an executive leader...actually she has more experience than all three of the other candidates. Is she 'Worldly' experienced? Is she experienced on smoozing as other politicians...sure she could use some work, but if her negative is that she has more integrity and is more honest than Biden...then sure, I'ld vote for Palin.

For some reason, I see a country of Sheep who are following the liberal mis-representations all the way to election day. It's a bit sad, and I can only Pray that this is NOT the first stage towards the destruction of America.

For the conservative movement to truly work and rebel against the Liberal Communism, we must work to put Conservative values back into our education system. But I'm not sure this is possible...we live in a society of the quick fix, no longer do we have true patriots that are willing to sacrifice for the good of tomorrow.

This is not generation "X" or "Y"...but rather Generatiion ME.

This is the generation that lives the motto:

"Ask not what you can do for your country, but ask your country what it can do for you...and if you don't like it, then demand it as a right of entitlement"

what you are saying is that those who support obama/biden are people who can't think for themselves, while those who support mccain/palin do.

wow.

you sure can throw out some gross unsubstantiated, and frankly insulting, assumptions.

people who support mccain do so because they have read his positions, looked at the man, and made their decisions.

the same is true about the people who support obama.

try to use a bit of respect....it will do you good.

mcsluggo · 10-07-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I'm glad you can speak for everybody. Notably, no rebuttal about Biden.

... as if those arguments haven't been discussed ad nausem in the OTHER thread about this topic...

but anyway, here goes. The article points out two factual errors by Biden:

-- saying Hezboullah, when he clearly meant to say Syria
-- saying Article 1 instead of Article 2

the rest are ALL shades of grey arguments with conflicting studies pointing to conflicting (and in all cases convenient) findings on issues, and weaseling on the edges of issues (it is all about sematics)

It is true, all debators are guily of this sort of weaselry... and Biden and Palin are no exeptions, as nobody expected to be.

BUT on the broader issue... the semantics arguing and ticky tacky and whiney debate about how the punditry is givig Biden a pass while reaming Palin..etc...etc...etc... is pure smokescreen, so let me put the black and white question in stark terms:

Do you blieve that Sarah Palin posesses as high or greater a level of understanding of national and international policy issues as Joe Biden?

it is a simple Yes (she does) or No (she does not) question.

92bDad · 10-07-2008, 12:20 PM

Mavdog, for you I have respect...not sure we see eye to eye on issues and you have a way of being more articulate than I do.

But in general, the people I have had face to face discussions and even folks that I have interacted with on message boards...are acting like sheep.

Yes, there are some in the McCain camp that fall into this trap as well.

But when I look at both camps, I see a huge divide in the amount of half-truths coming out.

To substantiate, I simply ask readers to go back and review old threads and posts, as well as the links...no need to Double post reference material.

This is purely an opinion piece and yes it is MY opinion.

Part of this frustration is a compilation of many forums (Other boards, other Cyber venues, Radio, TV, newspaper, one on one's) -

In general, I see a willingness from the McCain/Palin camp and supporters to admit mistakes, to admit shortcomings, to admit that they are not perfect and that they are a work in progress. There is a level of humility which I find respectful and trustworthy.

Meanwhile from the Obama/Biden camp, I find a smugness, an attitude that they know better than me and everyone else, I get a sense of etitlement out that camp, I don't see ANY humility, from the Obama or Biden as well as the majority of their supporters that I have encountered. I get the sense that they are in a game, a competition that results in a winner...rather than someone committed to serving the country. I am seriously offended with the Liberal media and the treatment they have given those who believe differently than they do...namely conservatives.

So yes, I am a bit disrespectful...it is NOT intended towards thow who have taken the time to build up their own individual value system and actually worked through the issues to find that they support their respective candidate. However, I find very few who have actually done this...those I communicate with who go through point by point, find that they change their support and move to the McCain/Palin camp.

It's clear that Obama doesn't want to reach the informed voter, rather he panders to the youth...because for the most part, their life experience is limited and their understanding of the issues, generally speaking is weaker than older generations. When I was 18, I was Naive...I didn't vote, because I didn't care...a few years later I did vote...but I voted Independant and it cost this nation...a few years later I voted Republican and I have voted Republican ever since.

I respect the integrity out of the McCain/Palin camp...while I feel lied too by the Obama/Biden camp.

I believe that a vast number of voters are making decisions that are not based on the qualities within the candidates. They are soundbite voters who don't dig into the issues to be an informed voter, making a decision that they can live with.

Sometimes, I believe that voters should have to pass some type of exam before they can register...this is not plausible, but it would be nice to know that those voting actually know what they are voting for.

This is a reflection of the controversy brewing in Ohio, with those who support Obama taking advantage of the registration rules in Ohio. They are going out, picking up homeless people, giving them rides to anywhere they want...provided they register and vote that day.

This is the same type of voter fraud that Obama was involved in within Chicago...it's flat out wrong.

Yes, this is a mini-rant...but the guy is crooked and it's as if nobody is listening.

I have yet to hear one person in the Obama camp admit to an Obama fault...while I have heard countless times from countless people the flaws within the McCain/Palin camp.

Please share with us...what do Obama/Biden people see as a weakness in Obama/Biden?

kg_veteran · 10-07-2008, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

... as if those arguments haven't been discussed ad nausem in the OTHER thread about this topic...

but anyway, here goes. The article points out two factual errors by Biden:

-- saying Hezboullah, when he clearly meant to say Syria
-- saying Article 1 instead of Article 2

More than that, but those were two big ones. Of course, the reason that those errors are so glaring is that he is a supposed expert on those two topics (foreign policy and constitutional law).

Quote:

BUT on the broader issue... the semantics arguing and ticky tacky and whiney debate about how the punditry is givig Biden a pass while reaming Palin..etc...etc...etc... is pure smokescreen

I see. You don't want to discuss it, so you just try to belittle the opposing point of view and declare it a smokescreen. Why not just say you have nothing to say?

Quote:

, so let me put the black and white question in stark terms:

Do you blieve that Sarah Palin posesses as high or greater a level of understanding of national and international policy issues as Joe Biden?

it is a simple Yes (she does) or No (she does not) question.

That's a loaded question. What I believe is that Sarah Palin possesses as high a level of understanding on foreign policy issues as Obama does. Both of them have been brought up to speed by advisers, and neither of them has much in the way of actual foreign policy experience.

Now, if you want to compare tickets, I'll take McCain/Palin all day.

mcsluggo · 10-07-2008, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

That's a loaded question. What I believe is that Sarah Palin possesses as high a level of understanding on foreign policy issues as Obama does.

I think that there is nothing more that either of us need say to each other on this subject. THe gulf is too wide, and frankly I am completely unable to view this position in any way other than either based in self deception or straight stupidity.

(for the record I don't get the impression that you are stupid)

kg_veteran · 10-07-2008, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

I think that there is nothing more that either of us need say to each other on this subject. THe gulf is too wide, and frankly I am completely unable to view this position in any way other than either based in self deception or straight stupidity.

(for the record I don't get the impression that you are stupid)

Since you view me as self-deceived, please enlighten me.

What is it about Obama's career that you believe provides him with foreign policy experience that he could use as President? Further, what is it about Obama's foreign policy experience that you think demonstrates his readiness to be President?

As for your prior question about Palin vs. Biden, I think Biden obviously has more experience and knowledge. No one is seriously debating that. The question is, does that translate into wise judgments that will benefit the United States? In that light, my question to you is this: What is it about Joe Biden's track record on foreign policy that makes you think he will make sound decisions or give sound advice to Obama if he were the vice president? Is it his opposition to missile defense or aid to the Contras during the Reagan years? Is it his opposition to the first Gulf War? His support of the Iraqi invasion? What is it, exactly?

chumdawg · 10-07-2008, 10:37 PM

KG, you would have to define what you mean by "foreign policy experience." Underlining yours.

kg_veteran · 10-08-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

KG, you would have to define what you mean by "foreign policy experience." Underlining yours.

No, I wouldnt, because I gave him the opportunity to define what Obama's foreign policy experience was.

kg_veteran · 10-08-2008, 10:41 AM

This seems like a good place to stick this excerpt from Camille Paglia, a professed Democrat:

Quote:

One of the most idiotic allegations batting around out there among urban media insiders is that Palin is "dumb." Are they kidding? What level of stupidity is now par for the course in those musty circles? (The value of Ivy League degrees, like sub-prime mortgages, has certainly been plummeting. As a Yale Ph.D., I have a perfect right to my scorn.) People who can't see how smart Palin is are trapped in their own narrow parochialism -- the tedious, hackneyed forms of their upper-middle-class syntax and vocabulary.

As someone whose first seven years were spent among Italian-American immigrants (I never met an elderly person who spoke English until we moved from Endicott to rural Oxford, New York, when I was in first grade), I am very used to understanding meaning through what might seem to others to be outlandish or fractured variations on standard English. Furthermore, I have spent virtually my entire teaching career (nearly four decades) in arts colleges, where the expressiveness of highly talented students in dance, music and the visual arts takes a hundred different forms. Finally, as a lover of poetry (my last book was about that), I savor every kind of experimentation with standard English -- beginning with Shakespeare, who was the greatest improviser of them all at a time when there were no grammar rules.

Many others listening to Sarah Palin at her debate went into conniptions about what they assailed as her incoherence or incompetence. But I was never in doubt about what she intended at any given moment. On the contrary, I was admiring not only her always shapely and syncopated syllables but the innate structures of her discourse -- which did seem to fly by in fragments at times but are plainly ready to be filled with deeper policy knowledge, as she gains it (hopefully over the next eight years of the Obama presidencies). This is a tremendously talented politician whose moment has not yet come. That she holds views completely opposed to mine is irrelevant.

Mavdog · 10-08-2008, 11:31 AM

clearly palin is not dumb, someone who acheives what she has must have intelligence.

that does not mean that she is qualified, nor does that mean that she is the correct person for the office.

anyone who saw the debate with biden has to conclude that her depth of knowledge on the issues is very shallow, and that she does not have a strong grasp of how the country should confront the challenges facing us.

folksiness and humour only go so far "don't ya know".

kg_veteran · 10-09-2008, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavdog

clearly palin is not dumb, someone who acheives what she has must have intelligence.

that does not mean that she is qualified, nor does that mean that she is the correct person for the office.

anyone who saw the debate with biden has to conclude that her depth of knowledge on the issues is very shallow, and that she does not have a strong grasp of how the country should confront the challenges facing us.

folksiness and humour only go so far "don't ya know".

Getting back to the point of the thread, though -- are you saying you'd prefer Biden because of his superior experience?

FWIW, I appreciate the fact that you continue to converse rather than call me self-deceived.

Mavdog · 10-09-2008, 11:00 AM

I prefer biden for a variety of reasons, the first and most important being that I view palin as extreme in her ideology.

the experience of biden is certainly a positive, although I see it as experience of being a public servant more than his experience with the issues. biden's knowledge of how things function should be an asset in serving as vp.