Fin is our MVP - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dude1394 · 05-17-2002, 12:27 PM

<< If I'm not mistaken, I thought the post was starting out as Fin for MVP of this series. >>

My bad on that one. I thought it was an end of the year thing. I guess we can say that Fin was MVP of the series, i believe that would still be up for debate. I just don't see Fin do enough for the team to think he was the MVP. At least nash is both scorer and giver of assists. Finley is a jump-shooter and can drive to the hole, but sporadically.

I think I still fall on the side of the guy scoring the most points, getting the most rebounds, going to the hole the most getting beat up the most. If he shooting and basically everything being on their shoulders and still looked like they performed. From the series stats below they looked pretty even except for the FG% and the rebounds. So a cases can certainly be made. Michael did take it upon himself to go to the hoop, hooray. Sorta says we should have told dirk to shoot more threes doesn't it. ;^)

G GS MPG FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Dirk 5 5 45.4 43-107 .402 8-17 .471 33-38 .868 2.40 9.20 11.6 3.2 1.40 .40 3.20 2.60 25.4
Fin 5 5 46.8 42-94 .447 8-25 .320 31-35 .886 1.80 4.20 6.00 2.2 1.20 .40 1.40 2.60 24.6

reeds · 05-17-2002, 01:28 PM

Dude- you cant just look at Dirks numbers- its how he got those numbers. His FG % was terrible. He hurt the Mavs badly in some of those games. The only hoops he was making were layups in a few of those games. Stats can be misleading if you didnt watch the whole game. I am NOT saying you didnt watch, but if you did, You know as well as I do that Dirk was OFF most of the series...

SeomanSnowlock · 05-17-2002, 01:36 PM

As bad as Dirk was during the series, Finley was probably worse during clutch time than Dirk was

dude1394 · 05-17-2002, 01:41 PM

<< Dude- you cant just look at Dirks numbers- its how he got those numbers. His FG % was terrible. He hurt the Mavs badly in some of those games. The only hoops he was making were layups in a few of those games. Stats can be misleading if you didnt watch the whole game. I am NOT saying you didnt watch, but if you did, You know as well as I do that Dirk was OFF most of the series... >>

I went back and looked at the 3-4-5 games. After the 37-28-26 games Fin put together I humbly bow to the FinMeister being the MVP of the Sacremento Series. So I break it down like this for the year. Fin MVP of Sac Series. Dirk MVP of Minn Series and the year.

PLAYER POS MIN FGM-A 3GM-A FTM-A OFF DEF TOT AST PF ST TO BS PTS Game 5
MICHAEL FINLEY G 46 9-18 2-6 6-7 2 4 6 2 3 2 3 0 26
DIRK NOWITZKI F 48 13-25 3-5 3-4 0 12 12 3 1 1 1 1 32

Fin F 51 10-24 4-9 4-4 1 4 5 1 4 1 1 0 28 Game 4
DIRK F 47 9-28 1-5 12-14 5 6 11 7 4 2 4 0 31

Fin 47 13-23 1-3 10-11 2 2 4 5 3 1 0 0 37 Game 3 (WOW)
Dirk 42 6-15 2-3 5-5 1 4 5 2 4 1 3 0 19

SeomanSnowlock · 05-17-2002, 01:54 PM

The problem for the Mavs in the Sacramento series was that everyone hurt the Mavs badly. Especially down the stretch

Hales233 · 05-17-2002, 02:22 PM

you're wrong seoman.

SeomanSnowlock · 05-17-2002, 02:23 PM

You can find numerous instances in key stretches where all of the big three performed poorly.

TheKid · 05-17-2002, 03:13 PM

I went back and looked at the 3-4-5 games. After the 37-28-26 games Fin put together I humbly bow to the FinMeister being the MVP of the Sacremento Series. So I break it down like this for the year. Fin MVP of Sac Series. Dirk MVP of Minn Series and the year.

I can agree with that Dude... That was my point, I was NEVER saying that Dirk isn't the "man" on this team, just in that series he didn't play like that.

Also seoman, you can say the big three hurt us all you want but this I know. DIRK HURT US THE MOST OUT OF THE BIG THREE!!!! Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has bad games, but he CONSISTENTLY hurt us in three of the four games the Mavs lost and Fin hurt us in ONE of the games the mavs lost.

SeomanSnowlock · 05-17-2002, 03:25 PM

TheKid, I know Dirk had a bad series. I know that without a doubt. Finley probably did have the best series. LaFrentz had a pretty good series overall as well.
Unfortunately, none of the key players stepped up during crunch time.

I'm disagreeing with this thread, not just one person's comments.

The Sacramento series was a letdown for all Mavericks involved. It is a tough to say who played worse between the players that played poorly.

I don't think you can look at one series and say that he is our MVP simply because he played "less poorly" than Dirk. You surely can't do that if you pay any attention to the recent past.

Finley is a very good player. Dirk is this team's best player. I don't get anyone basing Finley being the Mavericks MVP based upon the crappy Sacramento series.
Yes, he was probably the Maverick's MVP for the series, but not the Mav's MVP for this season.

TheKid · 05-17-2002, 03:52 PM

That's all this thread was saying. Was that he was the MVP of THIS series.. That's all.

Dude and I just agreed that the entire season it would probably be Dirk. No one is even disputing that. We're talking about this series AND the reason it was bought up was because he was the one everyone expected to be the man. HE was the one everyone expected to step up in this series and lead this team to victory.

This series probably showed how essential he is to the Mavs success because he played so poorly and the Mavs lost. However I keep hearing people say how poorly Fin played, etc. etc. and how he didn't step up in the clutch...

Well this I know for a FACT, if they both played the same way with the exception of the way they both SHOT, meaning Give Dirk Fin's numbers and Give Fin's Dirk's numbers, (Having Dirk have 37-28-26 and shooting over 50% from the field and almost 90% from the free throw line) there would have been ALL TYPES of people on this board saying how Dirk played AMAZING and Nash and Fin didn't step up and they let the team and Dirk down... How do I know, because that's what everyone was saying LAST YEAR after the Mavs lost to the Spurs. Dirk didn't play any better last year in the series against the spurs than Fin played this year against the Kings BUT for whatever reason last year Dirk was GOD and this year Fin didn't do enough to win for the Mavs....

I guess it's what MFFL said.. It's the DIRK DOUBLE STANDARD!!!!

dude1394 · 05-17-2002, 06:50 PM

<< I guess it's what MFFL said.. It's the DIRK DOUBLE STANDARD!!!! >>

There are a couple of issues with Finely over Dirk... Mainly that Finley seemed to have peaked as a player. Unless something new has been uncovered in the playoffs this year and Finley becomes more of a driver/distributor then he will be a 20-24 point scorer. If finley comes back next year with better handles he will become so much more effective. Better defense would help as well.

Dirk however in being a real up and comer. Also being 7 foot certainly gives him a leg up. But in general he has improved every year and we haven't seen a level off yet. That is the biggest reason that he gets cut some slack. Not having played "usa bball" for most of his life, we are also pretty sure that he still has some adjustment to go. Dirk also needs to come in and be able to distribute the ball, get some more low-post game and improve defensively.

so I think the double standard (and there is one) is because of expectations, experience and what seems to be improvement year on year versus what seems for the last year to be a player that may have peaked.

TheKid · 05-18-2002, 12:22 PM

Well Dude, you said there's a double standard so that's all I need to hear. Which is wrong and it's why I'll continue to praise Fin while others want to demean his accomplishments.

seelenjaeger · 05-18-2002, 12:39 PM

you´re absolutely right Kid ... indeed, ít is what all Nellie, Nash, Cuban and even Dirk were telling us all the time: Dirk is here to learn, STILL, to learn from Fin. You cannot simply negate all the years of experience and leadership Finley is carrying in his bag, and both Dirk and the Mavs should be highly happy that Dirk has the chance to learn from one of the best (character wise) guys on the floor ...

Maybe it will be Dirk´s team in leadership in some years, but it is no need to rush this development. Even a guy like Avery Johnson was something like an unanimous co-general when Spurs won their title besides both Duncan and Robinson, so why should we try to fight a battle not even necessary to be fought ...

OzMavs · 05-18-2002, 12:40 PM

While all the fuss is made about Dirk and Nash. Fin is the quiet achiever, I can't imagine the Mavs stepping onto court without him for a long time.

dude1394 · 05-18-2002, 04:17 PM

<< Well Dude, you said there's a double standard so that's all I need to hear. Which is wrong and it's why I'll continue to praise Fin while others want to demean his accomplishments. >>

Even though I do think there is a double standard. Dirk is still the man. If you had to keep any of the big 3 it would have to be dirk.

MavKikiNYC · 05-18-2002, 08:10 PM

Fin was the bright point of the post season, as far as I'm concerned, and he erased the perecption that he doesn't step up in crunch time.

But thank God he didn't haveta play Kobe this year.

aexchange · 05-19-2002, 12:41 PM

<< Fin was the bright point of the post season, as far as I'm concerned, and he erased the perecption that he doesn't step up in crunch time.

But thank God he didn't haveta play Kobe this year. >>

completely agreed. fin did step it up in the playoffs. i'm glad to see him bounce back from game 5 of the spurs series last year. he's a great 3rd piece to have.

ReggieThetaChi · 05-22-2002, 11:56 PM

Everyone knows where I stand on the matter. Dirk is still learning. I see the MVP being not only the player who steps up on the court, but also the locker room leader. One who leads by example, words, and inspirational play on the court. Someone who takes care of his business, doesn't bitch about the officiating, just a basketball player in general who takes his team to a whole new level.

Dirk has the ability to take his team to a whole new level, but until he can learn the locker room leadership aspect to it, he won't be an MVP. I see the players who wear the badge of captain as being the MVP.

Finley is the MVP. Nowitzki is learning the role. Dirk has a hell of a teacher, don't you think?

Bayliss · 05-23-2002, 07:01 PM

<< Finley is the MVP. Nowitzki is learning the role. Dirk has a hell of a teacher, don't you think? >>

And as Fin bashing as this may sound, I'm not baqshing Fin... but the Mavs WILL NOT a championship until Dirk becomes the MVP of our team. Because Fin is not going to get us there.

And lookinng at the numbers of the Sacramento series... I don't know how you could MVP to any of the Mavs. Statisically, Dirk put up better numbers than Fin... but they **all sucked**.

dude1394 · 05-23-2002, 07:56 PM

Finley misses 13 games. Mavs go 12-1... Take Dirks 24 points AND 10 rebounds out of the lineup and we would probably be a 500 team. Finley took many last second shots and they were poor shots (very few times was he willing to drive the hoop for a last shot like Dirk is willing to do) and he made almost none of them.

If Finley improved his handles he could be MVP of the team, but right now he basically is a jump shooter who doesn't post that well because of his handles. Defense is not so great either.

Player G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Dirk Nowitzki 76 76 38.0 .477 .397 .853 1.60 8.40 9.90 2.4 1.09 1.01 1.91 2.90 23.4
Michael Finley 69 69 39.9 .463 .339 .837 1.30 3.90 5.20 3.3 .94 .36 1.70 2.10 20.6
Steve Nash 82 82 34.6 .483 .455 .887 .60 2.50 3.10 7.7 .65 .05 2.79 2.00 17.9

Of the big 3
Dirk leads in Pts, Rebs, Steals, Blocks, 440 FTM, 2nd in FT%, FG%, TO, 3PFG
Finley leads in MPG, TOs, 2nd in Rebs, 2nd in Steals, Blocks, First in no vital statistic.
Nash leads in APG, FG%, FT%, 3PFG made, 2nd in FTM

Looking at the stats it is pretty obvious that Dirk is number 1 on the team, a very good case can be made for Nash to be number 2. I think calling Finley the team MVP is living in the past.

dude1394 · 05-24-2002, 11:50 PM

<< you´re absolutely right Kid ... indeed, ít is what all Nellie, Nash, Cuban and even Dirk were telling us all the time: Dirk is here to learn, STILL, to learn from Fin. You cannot simply negate all the years of experience and leadership Finley is carrying in his bag, and both Dirk and the Mavs should be highly happy that Dirk has the chance to learn from one of the best (character wise) guys on the floor ...

Maybe it will be Dirk´s team in leadership in some years, but it is no need to rush this development. Even a guy like Avery Johnson was something like an unanimous co-general when Spurs won their title besides both Duncan and Robinson, so why should we try to fight a battle not even necessary to be fought ... >>

Quite frankly I'm not sure that Fins "leadership" is all that hot. His numbers have declined 3 years straight. He has not improved the one aspect of his game that we all know is suspect (taking it to the hoop), he also has not improved his handles nor his defense. So in a lot of aspects I think he can be a negative for the younger players. He doesn't have to improve and gets max'd out, so why should dirk or steve improve.

MavsFanFinley · 05-25-2002, 12:08 AM

Well Dude, you said there's a double standard so that's all I need to hear. Which is wrong and it's why I'll continue to praise Fin while others want to demean his accomplishments.

Bump.

dude1394 · 05-25-2002, 01:42 PM

<< Everyone knows where I stand on the matter. Dirk is still learning. I see the MVP being not only the player who steps up on the court, but also the locker room leader. One who leads by example, words, and inspirational play on the court. Someone who takes care of his business, doesn't bitch about the officiating, just a basketball player in general who takes his team to a whole new level.

Dirk has the ability to take his team to a whole new level, but until he can learn the locker room leadership aspect to it, he won't be an MVP. I see the players who wear the badge of captain as being the MVP.

Finley is the MVP. Nowitzki is learning the role. Dirk has a hell of a teacher, don't you think? >>

I agree, Avery Johnson should be MVP.

dude1394 · 05-25-2002, 06:57 PM

<< I went back and looked at the 3-4-5 games. After the 37-28-26 games Fin put together I humbly bow to the FinMeister being the MVP of the Sacremento Series. So I break it down like this for the year. Fin MVP of Sac Series. Dirk MVP of Minn Series and the year.

I can agree with that Dude... That was my point, I was NEVER saying that Dirk isn't the "man" on this team, just in that series he didn't play like that.

Also seoman, you can say the big three hurt us all you want but this I know. DIRK HURT US THE MOST OUT OF THE BIG THREE!!!! Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has bad games, but he CONSISTENTLY hurt us in three of the four games the Mavs lost and Fin hurt us in ONE of the games the mavs lost. >>

If dirk plays below his standards we will obviously be hurt more than nash, finley or anyone else on the team since he accounts for the most points, most rebounds, most FT's, points in the paint. The mavs rely so much on dirk that if he plays evan slightly off, the other players do not step up to compensate.

dude1394 · 05-25-2002, 06:58 PM

<< Dude- you cant just look at Dirks numbers- its how he got those numbers. His FG % was terrible. He hurt the Mavs badly in some of those games. The only hoops he was making were layups in a few of those games. Stats can be misleading if you didnt watch the whole game. I am NOT saying you didnt watch, but if you did, You know as well as I do that Dirk was OFF most of the series... >>

Yea his FG% was as bad as Kobe's have been during the playoffs. But the lakers seem to have other players take up the slack.

dude1394 · 05-25-2002, 07:02 PM

<< Well Dude, you said there's a double standard so that's all I need to hear. Which is wrong and it's why I'll continue to praise Fin while others want to demean his accomplishments. >>

There are double standards throughout life and the NBA. Ben Wallace for example gets a pass on his crappy offense because he rebounds a lot. Dirk doesn't seem to get much of a pass on his defense because of his offense (at least on this board and TNT). Even from an idiot like Danny Ainge who didn't play defense worth a minute.

dude1394 · 05-25-2002, 07:30 PM

<<

<< Dude- you cant just look at Dirks numbers- its how he got those numbers. His FG % was terrible. He hurt the Mavs badly in some of those games. The only hoops he was making were layups in a few of those games. Stats can be misleading if you didnt watch the whole game. I am NOT saying you didnt watch, but if you did, You know as well as I do that Dirk was OFF most of the series... >>

Yea his FG% was as bad as Kobe's have been during the playoffs. But the lakers seem to have other players take up the slack. >>

So how badly would minnesota or sac beat us if dirk wasn't playing. probably by 20 each.

Murphy3 · 05-25-2002, 11:17 PM

<< and Fin hurt us in ONE of the games the mavs lost. >> >>

Once again, whoever said this, i'm not sure what you were watching during he sacramento series.