The Rick Carlisle appreciation thread

[markus1234]

07 GSW series is on Avery
06 FINALS meltdown is on Avery

period.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by markus1234

07 GSW series is on Avery
06 FINALS meltdown is on Avery

period.

Play harder...play like me!

I do believe however that Avery is our best chance to land deron, Dwight.

In Avery I trust.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by markus1234

Sad article...very sad.

Just imagine Rick as a MAVS coach between 2005 and 2008.

2007-08 Boston Celtics

2006-07 San Antonio Spurs

2005-06 Miami Heat

2004-05 San Antonio Spurs

We had a german Porsche producing ridiculos PER and we gave the keys to a freakin Avery Johnson....



Pop's mascot, nothing more. He was not even ready to ride bike....

He made Duncan a 4 x champ, he made Wade a champ, and he almost screwed up Dirk's career completely.

I would have KILLED to have Carlisle coaching this team in 2005-2008. I remember in '07 nearly pullling my hair out with rage because the Mavs chose to stick with Avery when Carlisle was readily available.

07 GSW series is on Avery
06 FINALS meltdown is on Avery

period.

Amen. Beyond that, to this day I still think the Mavs could've made another title run in 2008 if they had a competent coach. I think that roster was actually BETTER than the 2007 roster which won us 67 games. But Avery insisted on consistently playing Brandon Bass at center. That decision alone I think cost us about 6 games that year, not to mention Avery's time-honored tradition of relying on the scrubs like Stackhouse and Devean George to carry the team's offensive burden. And if all of that wasn't enough, his insufferable personality made sure that the environment in the locker room was toxic.

That season was maybe the closest I've ever come to completely checking out as a fan because I just knew the Mavs were wasting their opportunities for a championship on Avery. Meanwhile, Carlisle was sitting right there without a coaching job working for ESPN.

The fact that we got Carlisle that offseason and did eventually win a championship eases a lot of the pain from those memories. Still, I can't help sigh and wonder what could have been. If we'd had Carlisle in 06 and 07, the Mavs might very well have three titles today. Oh well.

Oh, and while we're on this subject, I'll take this opportunity to brag shamelessly.

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Amen. In all honesty, if I were Cuban, after last season I would've fired Avery and gone after Rick Carlisle. Avery's stagnant, incompetent, practically Van Gundyan offense was enough for me to want to see him gone.

http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?p=771143

To my knowledge, this is my earliest mention of my desire to have RC coach this team. Roughly 7 months before he signed on as coach. FTW!

[b_o_r]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I would have KILLED to have Carlisle coaching this team in 2005-2008. I remember in '07 nearly pullling my hair out with rage because the Mavs chose to stick with Avery when Carlisle was readily available.



Amen. Beyond that, to this day I still think the Mavs could've made another title run in 2008 if they had a competent coach. I think that roster was actually BETTER than the 2007 roster which won us 67 games. But Avery insisted on consistently playing Brandon Bass at center. That decision alone I think cost us about 6 games that year, not to mention Avery's time-honored tradition of relying on the scrubs like Stackhouse and Devean George to carry the team's offensive burden. And if all of that wasn't enough, his insufferable personality made sure that the environment in the locker room was toxic.

That season was maybe the closest I've ever come to completely checking out as a fan because I just knew the Mavs were wasting their opportunities for a championship on Avery. Meanwhile, Carlisle was sitting right there without a coaching job working for ESPN.

The fact that we got Carlisle that offseason and did eventually win a championship eases a lot of the pain from those memories. Still, I can't help sigh and wonder what could have been. If we'd had Carlisle in 06 and 07, the Mavs might very well have three titles today. Oh well.

Oh, and while we're on this subject, I'll take this opportunity to brag shamelessly.


http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?p=771143

To my knowledge, this is my earliest mention of my desire to have RC coach this team. Roughly 7 months before he signed on as coach. FTW!

-A lot of revisionist history going on here. The Mavs til this day have a hard time containing Chris Paul/speedy PG in general, yet Carlisle would have taken them to victory. Just face facts, the Hornets and Warriors were a bad match up for the Mavericks.
-The Heat series was a different animal by itself.
-Carlisle has a history of relying on scrubs as well.
-It was Avery/Harris who laid the foundation of the defensive culture of the team and the slowing down of the offense.
-It was Avery who got on Dirk to develop a low post game.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by markus1234

07 GSW series is on Avery
06 FINALS meltdown is on Avery

period.

Well said. I was shocked that he wasn't fired after gsw. And THEN he gets a great point guard who he said he wanted and then sits him. We may have jkiddo to thank for getting rid of Avery.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by b_o_r

-A lot of revisionist history going on here. The Mavs til this day have a hard time containing Chris Paul/speedy PG in general, yet Carlisle would have taken them to victory. Just face facts, the Hornets and Warriors were a bad match up for the Mavericks.
-The Heat series was a different animal by itself.
-Carlisle has a history of relying on scrubs as well.
-It was Avery/Harris who laid the foundation of the defensive culture of the team and the slowing down of the offense.
-It was Avery who got on Dirk to develop a low post game.

What do speedy PG's and the Warriors series have to do with each other?

It's your opinion that Carlisle would NOT have restored balance to the team and brought an emphasis on defense? Were you paying attention at all last year?

Avery should get some credit for the work he did here (you can't deny the effort he got out of the entire roster for two seasons), but that's going to happen when you flame out the way he did. But no matter what you think of Avery, trying to argue that Carlisle wouldn't have gotten better results during those years is absurd. Carlisle has clearly proven to be one of the very best tactical coaches in the NBA.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by b_o_r

-A lot of revisionist history going on here. The Mavs til this day have a hard time containing Chris Paul/speedy PG in general, yet Carlisle would have taken them to victory. Just face facts, the Hornets and Warriors were a bad match up for the Mavericks.

I call b.s. You can say that I was wrong if you want, but "revisionist" implies that I changed my opinion after the fact. I've been very consistent in my anti-Avery/pro-Carlisle stance, going back to 2006-2007. And yes, those teams were bad matchups, but that doesn't justify the general awful, piss-poor, boneheaded nature of Avery's coaching.

-The Heat series was a different animal by itself.

Was it really? I saw the same thing happen against Golden State. Dirk got doubled on every possession, and Avery didn't know how to respond. Okay, the officiating was terrible and Wade was playing out of his mind, but all in all the way the events played out were pretty similar.

-Carlisle has a history of relying on scrubs as well.

Huh? You'll have to be more specific on that one. I'll grant you that he probably relied on Barea way too much, but that doesn't even begin to compare to Avery's ridiculous love for people like Stackhouse and George, among others. In fact, I remember one of the most noticeable things Carlisle did in his first season here was take Stackhouse out of the rotation completely.

-It was Avery/Harris who laid the foundation of the defensive culture of the team and the slowing down of the offense.

Sure, Avery deserves credit for putting more of an emphasis on defense than Nellie did (which of course was none at all.) But people made WAY too big a deal out of that. It doesn't take a genius to tell your players, "hey guys, play defense!" If there was something remarkable about his defensive schemes, I sure didn't see it. But sure, he gets credit for not being Nellie.

And I'm sorry, but "slowing down the offense" isn't exactly a selling point for Avery.

-It was Avery who got on Dirk to develop a low post game.

Now THAT is revisionist history. It's true that Avery tried his damnedest to morph Dirk into Tim Duncan and choke the inspiration out of him. But if you're giving Avery credit for Dirk's fade-away jumper, I'm just going to sit here and laugh.

[endrity]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I call b.s. You can say that I was wrong if you want, but "revisionist" implies that I changed my opinion after the fact. I've been very consistent in my anti-Avery/pro-Carlisle stance, going back to 2006-2007. And yes, those teams were bad matchups, but that doesn't justify the general awful, piss-poor, boneheaded nature of Avery's coaching.




Was it really? I saw the same thing happen against Golden State. Dirk got doubled on every possession, and Avery didn't know how to respond. Okay, the officiating was terrible and Wade was playing out of his mind, but all in all the way the events played out were pretty similar.



Huh? You'll have to be more specific on that one. I'll grant you that he probably relied on Barea way too much, but that doesn't even begin to compare to Avery's ridiculous love for people like Stackhouse and George, among others. In fact, I remember one of the most noticeable things Carlisle did in his first season here was take Stackhouse out of the rotation completely.



Sure, Avery deserves credit for putting more of an emphasis on defense than Nellie did (which of course was none at all.) But people made WAY too big a deal out of that. It doesn't take a genius to tell your players, "hey guys, play defense!" If there was something remarkable about his defensive schemes, I sure didn't see it. But sure, he gets credit for not being Nellie.

And I'm sorry, but "slowing down the offense" isn't exactly a selling point for Avery.



Now THAT is revisionist history. It's true that Avery tried his damnedest to morph Dirk into Tim Duncan and choke the inspiration out of him. But if you're giving Avery credit for Dirk's fade-away jumper, I'm just going to sit here and laugh.

I am with Spiral on this one. Iirc we used to debate a lot about what happened in the GSW series. And the one thing that was clear was that Avery had no offensive plan at all. He relied on isolations every single possession, and when Dirk was double or triple teamed the rest of the team had no idea how to rotate and get open shots. That is a huge difference right there between the two coaches.

On defense, I can say that Rick's team last year played amazing defense during our comebacks. But because he had Tyson and because he had Casey as an assistant I'll go ahead and call this a tie. But Rick's teams in Indiana and Detroit were known for their D, so it's hardly something that Avery has on Rick.

Dirk and player development in general. This is another slam dunk for Rick. The way they managed Kidd. The development of Harris v. Barea. But honestly telling Dirk to play like Duncan ultimately just took a lot of what makes Dirk great. You saw it last year that he was at his best when he had the ball at the 3pt line, drove, spun and kept his defender on his toes all the time. Dirk's post game was developing as early as 03, when he often started to receive the ball on the elbow for isos. go look at some of those Sacramento games from those years.
If anything is true about Dirk and all the other great players it's that they are ultimately their own biggest critic and motivator. I haven't seen anything from Dirk to make me think otherwise.

[endrity]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I call b.s. You can say that I was wrong if you want, but "revisionist" implies that I changed my opinion after the fact. I've been very consistent in my anti-Avery/pro-Carlisle stance, going back to 2006-2007. And yes, those teams were bad matchups, but that doesn't justify the general awful, piss-poor, boneheaded nature of Avery's coaching.




Was it really? I saw the same thing happen against Golden State. Dirk got doubled on every possession, and Avery didn't know how to respond. Okay, the officiating was terrible and Wade was playing out of his mind, but all in all the way the events played out were pretty similar.



Huh? You'll have to be more specific on that one. I'll grant you that he probably relied on Barea way too much, but that doesn't even begin to compare to Avery's ridiculous love for people like Stackhouse and George, among others. In fact, I remember one of the most noticeable things Carlisle did in his first season here was take Stackhouse out of the rotation completely.



Sure, Avery deserves credit for putting more of an emphasis on defense than Nellie did (which of course was none at all.) But people made WAY too big a deal out of that. It doesn't take a genius to tell your players, "hey guys, play defense!" If there was something remarkable about his defensive schemes, I sure didn't see it. But sure, he gets credit for not being Nellie.

And I'm sorry, but "slowing down the offense" isn't exactly a selling point for Avery.



Now THAT is revisionist history. It's true that Avery tried his damnedest to morph Dirk into Tim Duncan and choke the inspiration out of him. But if you're giving Avery credit for Dirk's fade-away jumper, I'm just going to sit here and laugh.

I am with Spiral on this one. Iirc we used to debate a lot about what happened in the GSW series. And the one thing that was clear was that Avery had no offensive plan at all. He relied on isolations every single possession, and when Dirk was double or triple teamed the rest of the team had no idea how to rotate and get open shots. That is a huge difference right there between the two coaches.

On defense, I can say that Rick's team last year played amazing defense during our comebacks. But because he had Tyson and because he had Casey as an assistant I'll go ahead and call this a tie. But Rick's teams in Indiana and Detroit were known for their D, so it's hardly something that Avery has on Rick.

Dirk and player development in general. This is another slam dunk for Rick. The way they managed Kidd. The development of Harris v. Barea. But honestly telling Dirk to play like Duncan ultimately just took a lot of what makes Dirk great. You saw it last year that he was at his best when he had the ball at the 3pt line, drove, spun and kept his defender on his toes all the time. Dirk's post game was developing as early as 03, when he often started to receive the ball on the elbow for isos. go look at some of those Sacramento games from those years.
If anything is true about Dirk and all the other great players it's that they are ultimately their own biggest critic and motivator. I haven't seen anything from Dirk to make me think otherwise.

[endrity]

. double post

[endrity]

.triple post

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Still, I can't help sigh and wonder what could have been. If we'd had Carlisle in 06 and 07, the Mavs might very well have three titles today. Oh well.

One should also realize that it was exactly the time when Duncan became "the best PF ever"...

2006-07 San Antonio Spurs

2004-05 San Antonio Spurs

and separated himself from Dirk. Dirk had 0 and Duncan 4...




ps: The GSW series was not only bout our ISO offense.

- starters sat out last reg. season games, had no rhythm
- starters did not play against GSW (if i remember right). Huge mistake.
- we signed (totally useless) Kevin Willis shortly before the playoffs
- Avery benched Damp and played small ball in game 1
and so on.

And the MIA series ?

-hotel panic
-Quis was our best Wade defender (Avery did not play him, did not like him)
-totally outcoached during games/tiemouts/half times.
and so on.

[Skywalker]

Rick Carlisle is the 5th Best Coach in NBA History

By: SAM QUINN | September 10th, 2016, 5:30 AM

Throughout the offseason, we will rank the top 15 coaches in NBA history. Want the whole list? Click here.

Total Seasons: 14

Total Championships: 1

Regular Season Record: 661-471

Regular Season Winning Percentage: .584

Playoff Record: 58-62

Playoff Winning Percentage: .483

Why he’s great: The internet seems to think that he’s some kind of warlock. I’m inclined to agree. He dragged the 2014 champion Spurs to seven games with a 64-year-old Vince Carter as his best perimeter player. The Heat barely avoided a sweep against them in the Finals. Carlisle has no preconceived notions about what kind of basketball is best. He takes stock of his roster and figures out exactly what style can win with what he has.

It’s amazing to say considering he’s won a championship and has a 58.4 percent winning percentage. But, Carlisle has actually had horrible luck as a coach. He was bizarrely fired after only two years (in which he won 50 games each) coaching a Pistons team without an All-Star. And, then he fell victim to Larry Bird’s famous theory that coaches grow stale in Indiana. He averaged 47 wins over a six-year span in which he was fired twice.

He then wound up in Dallas, won a championship, and was rewarded by watching his team broken up and spending the next five years perpetually this close to adding another superstar. Had he found a more stable, traditional landing spot for a great coach he’d likely have two or three more rings by now.

He’ll have to settle for the title of basketball’s most versatile coach. He stifled LeBron in the Finals by using an unconventional zone defense. No team has been able to copy it since. He stole a game from the 2016 Thunder by playing at a glacial pace and hoping variance could swing things his way in such a small sample size. No matter what the obstacle, Rick Carlisle has always found a seemingly impossible strategy to overcome it. Had things gone differently, he might have become the greatest coach in NBA history.

Why he’s not higher: For all of the things Carlisle does well, he’s never been particularly good at developing young players. The Indiana roster he left behind had virtually no up-and-comers for his replacement to inherit and took years to rebuild. And, his Dallas benches have often relied on veterans nobody else wanted because he hasn’t found younger guys to fill those roles. The ultimate example is Jae Crowder. Carlisle couldn’t find a use for him, but Brad Stevens almost immediately turned him into a borderline All-Star.

And while his accomplishments are extraordinary when examined in context, the fact remains he has won only one championship. Everyone above him on this list has at least five. Carlisle is as high as he can possibly be considering the circumstances, but it just wouldn’t be fair to put him above anyone in the top-four.

http://thesportspost.com/nba-greates...#axzz4MKm19ouv

[Bryan_Wilson]

Really love the pro-love for RC there. My only complaint....

Why he’s not higher: For all of the things Carlisle does well, he’s never been particularly good at developing young players. The Indiana roster he left behind had virtually no up-and-comers for his replacement to inherit and took years to rebuild. And, his Dallas benches have often relied on veterans nobody else wanted because he hasn’t found younger guys to fill those roles. The ultimate example is Jae Crowder. Carlisle couldn’t find a use for him, but Brad Stevens almost immediately turned him into a borderline All-Star.

While I do think that in RC's system sometimes the wing players just stand in the corner and are largely ignored for stretches. This Crowder stuff is getting out of hand. He's a quality player for sure but borderline all star? His PER was 15.8 last year, the league average is 15 every year. Parsons on one leg half the time he was on the floor was a 16.2. Monta who is the go to for borderline all star talks has had several seasons where he was 16.5-19.0 and not made the all star. a dude who barely is above the league average in PER is not a borderline all star to me. And outside of Crowder I can't really recall a young player who RC did not develop who left and became something memorable.

And fwiw just to clarify, the worst player who made the all star game last year in the east would prolly be isaiah thomas(21.5) or al horford(19.3). Both well above the league average area where Crowder is.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Really love the pro-love for RC there. My only complaint....



While I do think that in RC's system sometimes the wing players just stand in the corner and are largely ignored for stretches. This Crowder stuff is getting out of hand. He's a quality player for sure but borderline all star? His PER was 15.8 last year, the league average is 15 every year. Parsons on one leg half the time he was on the floor was a 16.2. Monta who is the go to for borderline all star talks has had several seasons where he was 16.5-19.0 and not made the all star. a dude who barely is above the league average in PER is not a borderline all star to me. And outside of Crowder I can't really recall a young player who RC did not develop who left and became something memorable.

And fwiw just to clarify, the worst player who made the all star game last year in the east would prolly be isaiah thomas(21.5) or al horford(19.3). Both well above the league average area where Crowder is.

LMFAO! Jae Crowder is the reason Carlisle isn't higher? Jesus people can be dumb.

Yeah, Brad Stevens let Crowder blossom his team into a first round exit shooting 28% from the field and 24% from the three. What a developer.

[Melonhead]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

LMFAO! Jae Crowder is the reason Carlisle isn't higher? Jesus people can be dumb.

Yeah, Brad Stevens let Crowder blossom his team into a first round exit shooting 28% from the field and 24% from the three. What a developer.

The last paragraph was explicit in why he ultimately isnt higher.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Melonhead

The last paragraph was explicit in why he ultimately isnt higher.

Not if Crowder is your example. That is just explicitly dumb.

Crowder has two positive attributes...he can handle the ball and is a good defender.

Negatives? Not a good passer, not very athletic, can't shoot, and is rather small (like 6'4 1/2 without shoes).

[BPo001]

http://thesportspost.com/nba-top-50-...#axzz4MWVbMMcb

This website thinks pretty highly of Crowder. Comes in at #34 ahead of his all star teammate, Isiah Thomas.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by BPo001

http://thesportspost.com/nba-top-50-...#axzz4MWVbMMcb

This website thinks pretty highly of Crowder. Comes in at #34 ahead of his all star teammate, Isiah Thomas.

Throughout the offseason, we will rank the top 50 players in the NBA. To be clear, these are the 50 best players for the 2016-17 season. Regardless of team situation, past performance or future potential. If you’re trying to win a championship in 2016-17, these are the 50 players you’d want most. Here’s how far we’ve gotten
Read more at http://thesportspost.com/nba-top-50-...u0gpcLPfjAs.99

I have so many issues with this list it prolly could have it's own thread. But just at first glance the things that irked me were... 4 Celtics players in top 50. Ben Simmons is in top 50 even though it clearly says not taking in potential or past only present ability... well he hasn't played one second of NBA regular season and he's already top 50. And the worst part... they omitted the goat. I even hit ctrl + f and typed "Dirk" just to make sure I wasn't seeing things.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by BPo001

http://thesportspost.com/nba-top-50-...#axzz4MWVbMMcb

This website thinks pretty highly of Crowder. Comes in at #34 ahead of his all star teammate, Isiah Thomas.

That website is awful.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by BPo001

http://thesportspost.com/nba-top-50-...#axzz4MWVbMMcb

If you’re trying to win a championship in 2016-17, these are the 50 players you’d want most.
.
.
10. James Harden

[BPo001]

Not saying I agree with that list at all, but I happen to stumble across it after reading that article on Rick. I'd take 37 year old Dirk over some players on that list.

[Marvin Jackson]

Avery Johnson was a better coach. He won 58, 60 and 67 games in his three seasons.
He also really won that title in 06 but Stern was rigging it against Cuban because of the hate there.

Avery also coached a better defense.


Carlisle is the only coach in NBA history to lose 5 straight First Rounds in the playoffs and still keep his job.

I looked it up.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Well said. I was shocked that he wasn't fired after gsw. And THEN he gets a great point guard who he said he wanted and then sits him. We may have jkiddo to thank for getting rid of Avery.

So Don Nelson building the Mavericks and having a personal vendetta against Mark Cuban in 07 means nothing. Not only that, but he purposely built the Warriors that season to beat one team and that was the Mavericks. Also Don purposely played to get the 8 seed to face Mark Cuban to get sweet revenge.

Avery had nothing to do with Don Nelson owning mark Cuban.

I guess some of you don't look at things logically.

I guess David Stern Riggin' the 06 Finals against Mark Cuban to get sweet revenge on mark means nothing you you guys.

Even Dirk was telling Mark to shut the hell up and stop aggervating the Commissioner David Stern after those playoffs.


The Mavs always got horrible calls from the refs from 01-08 really. All the way until Mark Cuban began to shut up.

Problem is now the team just sucks since 08 with the one exception in 2011 where the NBA stacked up the Mavericks to get back at Lebron James. Cuban and Carlisle had nothing to do with that. A monkey could've coached that stacked defensive lineup to a Title.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by jthig32

What do speedy PG's and the Warriors series have to do with each other?

It's your opinion that Carlisle would NOT have restored balance to the team and brought an emphasis on defense? Were you paying attention at all last year?

Avery should get some credit for the work he did here (you can't deny the effort he got out of the entire roster for two seasons), but that's going to happen when you flame out the way he did. But no matter what you think of Avery, trying to argue that Carlisle wouldn't have gotten better results during those years is absurd. Carlisle has clearly proven to be one of the very best tactical coaches in the NBA.

Carlisle has never had a 60+ win season.

Carlisle would've put 5'9 Barea on the ultra Athletic 6'3 220 pound Baron Davis.

[Marvin Jackson]

Also Avery beat the Spurs who were a 64 win Spurs team and All the Big three were in the middle of their PRIMES. He beat them in 7 games in what was probably the best Mavericks series in Team History. He even did so with the commissioner David Stern trying to rig it against Mark Cuban.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

Avery Johnson was a better coach. He won 58, 60 and 67 games in his three seasons.

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

Carlisle has never had a 60+ win season.

Counterpoint:

[Marvin Jackson]

[QUOTE=Underdog;1408853]Counterpoint:

[IMG]QUOTE]

That's like saying Robert Horry is better than Charles Barkley. It's not a real basketball argument.

there were completely different circumstances with the 05-08 Mavericks as with the 08-16 Mavericks.

Like for one was Carlisle ever going against his coaching mentor in a series Larry Bird. no he wasn't. But Avery was nearly every series with Don Nelson and Greg Popovich. Those people raised him. It's hard to beat you're mentor when they taught you everything and also when the commissioner is rigging games against your owner because your owner is outspoken and criticizes the league and commissioner constantly form 01-08.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

That's like saying Robert Horry is better than Charles Barkley.

No it isn't -- Horry was a role-player who hitched on with some great stars, Barkley was a star who didn't have enough Robert Horrys... Apples & oranges.

Avery was a head coach who lost the Finals with Dirk & Co, Carlisle is a head coach who won the Finals with Dirk & Co... Apples & apples.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by Underdog

No it isn't -- Horry was a role-player who hitched on with some great stars, Barkley was a star who didn't have enough Robert Horrys... Apples & oranges.

Avery was a head coach who lost the Finals with Dirk & Co, Carlisle is a head coach who won the Finals with Dirk & Co... Apples & apples.

It's not apples to apples. Avery had 3 seasons. Carlisle had 9 seasons with the Mavs. Also Avery was going against David Stern who was trying to get even with Mark Cuban. After that Mark Cuban and David Stern buried the hatchet. It was an easier path for Carlisle. Much easier. He didn't have David Stern rigging it against him and infact David Stern and Mark Cuban became friends around 2010.

Notice how they didn't send LeBron to the foul line 25 times per game like they did Wade in the 06 Finals. It's because they weren't rigging it against the Mavericks in 11 like they did in 06. So it's not Apples to Apples. It's apples to oranges. RC wouldn't never beat the Miami Heat and David Stern sending Wade to the FTL 25 times per game.

Also David Stern would do the same thing for Tim Duncan everytime the Mavs played the Spurs. Duncan would barely get touched and get 18 free throws per game against the Mavs. It was silly. Yet Still Avery somehow beat Duncan, Popovich and the Spurs in 06. He beat the best coach in the GAME. He beat his old team. Avery was the coach that taught Dallas how to first beat San Antonio and taught them what they like to do.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

It's not apples to apples. Avery had 3 seasons. Carlisle had 9 seasons with the Mavs. Also Avery was going against David Stern who was trying to get even with Mark Cuban. After that Mark Cuban and David Stern buried the hatchet. It was an easier path for Carlisle. Much easier. He didn't have David Stern rigging it against him and infact David Stern and Mark Cuban became friends around 2010.

Notice how they didn't send LeBron to the foul line 25 times per game like they did Wade in the 06 Finals. It's because they weren't rigging it against the Mavericks in 11 like they did in 06. So it's not Apples to Apples. It's apples to oranges. RC wouldn't never beat the Miami Heat and David Stern sending Wade to the FTL 25 times per game.

Also David Stern would do the same thing for Tim Duncan everytime the Mavs played the Spurs. Duncan would barely get touched and get 18 free throws per game against the Mavs. It was silly. Yet Still Avery somehow beat Duncan, Popovich and the Spurs in 06. He beat the best coach in the GAME. He beat his old team. Avery was the coach that taught Dallas how to first beat San Antonio and taught them what they like to do.

David Stern cannot melt steel beams.

[Marvin Jackson]

Avery was switched out for Carlisle because Avery got into a huge verbal shouting match with Mark Cuban. Ego's. Had nothing to do with basketball or x's and o's.

Carlisle has lost his fair share of first rounds. I remember one time they lost to a 7th seed Spurs team.

The true mark of a great coach is what they do when their SuperStar isn't there "Dirk".

Most of you Carlisle fans will be eating a lot of crow when Dirk is gone and then you see that he's a garbage coach that can't even develop talent or switch things up to get wins.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

The true mark of a great coach is what they do when their SuperStar isn't there "Dirk".

By that standard, Phil Jackson is garbage.

[Marvin Jackson]

Has Phil Jackson ever been without a SuperStar? I'm pretty sure he's gone games at a time without Shaq or Kobe. I've seen him make players like Kawme Brown look good for season. players like Samaki Walker aswell. When he lost MJ in 94 they still won 55 games in a great East and went to the Second round game 7 vs the Knicks. I don't know if you remember back then. He just simply turned BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant into All Stars that season. He stepped up when they lost their best player ever and the best player in league history.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

Has Phil Jackson ever been without a SuperStar? I'm pretty sure he's gone games at a time without Shaq or Kobe. I've seen him make players like Kawme Brown look good for season. players like Samaki Walker aswell. When he lost MJ in 94 they still won 55 games in a great East and went to the Second round game 7 vs the Knicks. I don't know if you remember back then. He just simply turned BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant into All Stars that season. He stepped up when they lost their best player ever and the best player in league history.

Yeah, making BJ Armstrong or Horace Grant into All-Stars is impressive, but who ended Phil's coaching career? Jose Juan Barea... That takes some damn fine coaching to pull off.

[Marvin Jackson]

So you're going to look at an entire body of work and then judge it all by 4 games. Of which those four games the person you're judging was on the way out anyway and was in contract complications with management as well as kobe and pau.

Phil sports a 72% winning percentage in the playoffs. He's won 6 times as many playoff series as rc and 11 times as many Championships.

Don't you dare question Phil Jacksons coaching resume.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

Don't you dare question Phil Jacksons coaching resume.

I don't recall Phil Jackson ever turning a scrub like JJB into a fine-tuned weapon that could sweep a 2x defending champion...Sounds like a hack coach, according to your metric.

[Marvin Jackson]

Barea was good from day one. Go look at the stats per minute. He just needed some time. Avery is the one that coached him up in the NBA and also he was already a scoring pg that led his conference in NCAA in scoring. Barea didn't get a lot of time with Avery but when he would he would always get like 10 points and 10 assists real quick in just a half or so. That team had Terry, Harris, and several other guards. Also Stackhouse, Daniels, and even Mo Ager. They were stacked at guard.

Also Avery didn't play the two point guard game plan like Carlisle does every game.

Barea was already good. You can ask him. He just needed time. Also I wouldn't say that he was the reason they beat the Lakers. I would say it was because of Dirk and his 75% TS % which was a record for a series. The Lakers had never faced a shooting 7 footer like Dirk before. That was a good team and stacked team. Stevenson played rough and tough defense on Bryant and shut him down. Also Brewer's length was key in the series in slowing Bryant down.

Kobe and Gasol were fueding when you look at the flip side of it as was Byum. Phil was on the way out also too because he was feuding with management.


Dirk is the one that put them away.

So I don't know what you were watching.

x's and o's Phil would demolish rick carlisle who is just running a shell offense and also sometimes runs his old Indiana pacer offense that he learned while an assistant at Indiana in the mid 90's while he was getting beat by Phil Jackson and the Chicago Bulls.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

Barea was good from day one. Go look at the stats per minute. He just needed some time. Avery is the one that coached him up in the NBA and also he was already a scoring pg that led his conference in NCAA in scoring. Barea didn't get a lot of time with Avery but when he would he would always get like 10 points and 10 assists real quick in just a half or so. That team had Terry, Harris, and several other guards. Also Stackhouse, Daniels, and even Mo Ager. They were stacked at guard.

Also Avery didn't play the two point guard game plan like Carlisle does every game.

Barea was already good. You can ask him. He just needed time. Also I wouldn't say that he was the reason they beat the Lakers. I would say it was because of Dirk and his 75% TS % which was a record for a series. The Lakers had never faced a shooting 7 footer like Dirk before. Also Peja and Terry were lights out. That was a good team and stacked team. Stevenson played rough and tough defense on Bryant and shut him down. Also Brewer's length was key in the series in slowing Bryant down.

Kobe and Gasol were fueding when you look at the flip side of it as was Byum. Phil was on the way out also too because he was feuding with management.


Dirk is the one that put them away.

So I don't know what you were watching.

x's and o's Phil would demolish rick carlisle who is just running a shell offense and also sometimes runs his old Indiana pacer offense that he learned while an assistant at Indiana in the mid 90's while he was getting beat by Phil Jackson and the Chicago Bulls.

I don't know what you've been watching -- Rick Carlisle turning Barea into a Bynum-killer tops anything that Phil the Fraud has ever done... And don't go using all of Jackson's trophies as proof that he's a better coach either, since I'm not allowed to use Carlisle's trophy to prove that he's better than Avery... Nobody cares about rings because Robert Horry, duh.

Basically Rick Carlisle is the best coach in NBA history because of Barea.... Whatever Dirk achieved in that series doesn't matter because being able to develop a scrub is the only true measure of coaching. That's why all the greats flock to the bottom-feeders, duh.

[Marvin Jackson]

Barea was already good when he played for Avery Johnson. When he would get minutes he would always get a quick 10 points and 7-8 assists in like 20 minutes.

Also if you think a coaches claim to fame is Barea than I don't know what to say. Barea is a 10ppg player that averages about 25 minutes a game on 42% shooting.

That's nothing to really shout about.

Don Nelson taught Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Mike Finley, Monta Ellis and Steph Curry. Not even counting Tim Hardaway, Chris Webber, Billy Owens, Mitch Richmond Latrell Sprewell, Terry Cummings, Sidney Moncrief, Anthony Mason and many others.