Chris Paul open to trade to Contender. - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

jthig32 · 07-22-2010, 11:16 AM

If Chris Paul is traded before the coming season for a package of cap relief, picks and young talent, the Mavs are going to have some serious, serious egg on their faces.

I don't think it's very likely, but this has me feeling a little uneasy.

LonghornDub · 07-22-2010, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

If Chris Paul is traded before the coming season for a package of cap relief, picks and young talent, the Mavs are going to have some serious, serious egg on their faces.

I don't think it's very likely, but this has me feeling a little uneasy.

What else could they have done? Word is they offered literally everything short of Dirk several times, including right before they greenlighted the Chandler trade. If the Hornets change their mind now, and they end up trading him to someone else for cap relief, I'm just not sure what else the Mavs could have done?

MavsX · 07-22-2010, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

What else could they have done? Word is they offered literally everything short of Dirk several times, including right before they greenlighted the Chandler trade. If the Hornets change their mind now, and they end up trading him to someone else for cap relief, I'm just not sure what else the Mavs could have done?

i think the only thing the mavs could have done is waited..and then we would be where we are now with the damp chip.

jacktruth · 07-22-2010, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

What else could they have done? Word is they offered literally everything short of Dirk several times, including right before they greenlighted the Chandler trade. If the Hornets change their mind now, and they end up trading him to someone else for cap relief, I'm just not sure what else the Mavs could have done?

Yea, and the fact is, we are a better team with Chandler than we were with Damp, and we have the Chandler chip for next year, so it's hard to complain.

Underdog · 07-22-2010, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

What else could they have done? Word is they offered literally everything short of Dirk several times, including right before they greenlighted the Chandler trade. If the Hornets change their mind now, and they end up trading him to someone else for cap relief, I'm just not sure what else the Mavs could have done?

I bet three years from now some revisionist on this forum is going to bitch about how Mark Cuban turned down CP3 for DUST - mark my words...

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-22-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I bet three years from now some revisionist on this forum is going to bitch about how Mark Cuban turned down CP3 for DUST - mark my words...

must spread rep

jthig32 · 07-22-2010, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

What else could they have done? Word is they offered literally everything short of Dirk several times, including right before they greenlighted the Chandler trade. If the Hornets change their mind now, and they end up trading him to someone else for cap relief, I'm just not sure what else the Mavs could have done?

I don't think it matters. The bottom line is it's up to them to read the market correctly. It may not be completely fair, but if you fold your hand with Damp and then a weak later Paul is traded for cap relief, you deserve to be questioned and criticized.

Underdog · 07-22-2010, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't think it matters. The bottom line is it's up to them to read the market correctly. It may not be completely fair, but if you fold your hand with Damp and then a weak later Paul is traded for cap relief, you deserve to be questioned and criticized.

But if you hold onto Damp and still don't get Paul, then you deserve to be crucified...

Better to blow your load early than to go to sleep with blue balls...

FINtastic · 07-22-2010, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't think it matters. The bottom line is it's up to them to read the market correctly. It may not be completely fair, but if you fold your hand with Damp and then a weak later Paul is traded for cap relief, you deserve to be questioned and criticized.

The only thing that's supposedly changed is that Chris Paul has demanded to be traded. How are the Mavericks supposed to know what goes on in Chris Paul's head?

jthig32 · 07-22-2010, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

But if you hold onto Damp and still don't get Paul, then you deserve to be crucified...

Better to blow your load early than to go to sleep with blue balls...

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

The only thing that's supposedly changed is that Chris Paul has demanded to be traded. How are the Mavericks supposed to know what goes on in Chris Paul's head?

Again, not saying it's an easy decision or even completely fair to criticize them.

But the entire focus of the Mavs front office is to stay in position to acquire a superstar if one ever comes available. And if one comes available so quickly, and the difference in not getting him ends up being that they traded Damp a week too soon, I don't really see how it makes sense to let them off the hook for that. Again, it's their job to read the market.

I imagine it's all moot, because I have to believe they talked to New Orleans and were told that either:

A. They're not ever, under any circumstances trading Chris Paul, no matter what he says (most likely).

B. If they do ever trade Paul, they're looking for more young talent than the Mavs have, and aren't that interested in a salary dump (seems plausible)

C. They don't really see much distinction between the instant expiring of Damp and a true expiring like Chandler (possible, I suppose).

I can't believe the Mavs traded Damp before getting concrete proof that one of those three scenarios was true.

LonghornDub · 07-22-2010, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't think it matters. The bottom line is it's up to them to read the market correctly. It may not be completely fair, but if you fold your hand with Damp and then a weak later Paul is traded for cap relief, you deserve to be questioned and criticized.

I wouldn't just say it's not completely fair, I'd say it's completely unfair to expect them to do anything more than make repeated efforts to offer everything we have except the one guy who we're keeping.

There's reading the market, and then there's reading minds. When the Hornets tell you "no" over and over and over and you've offered everything you've got, it'd be unreasonable to sit around and insist to yourself that they still might change their mind anytime soon. It's especially unreasonable when you have an asset whose trade value only lasts for so much longer.

You hope (maybe even expect) they change their mind awhile down the road, but it'd be unreasonable under these circumstances to prepare for the contingency that a week or two later they do a complete 180.

FINtastic · 07-22-2010, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I wouldn't just say it's not completely fair, I'd say it's completely unfair to expect them to do anything more than make repeated efforts to offer everything we have except the one guy who we're keeping.

There's reading the market, and then there's reading minds. When the Hornets tell you "no" over and over and over and you've offered everything you've got, it'd be unreasonable to sit around and insist to yourself that they still might change their mind anytime soon. It's especially unreasonable when you have an asset whose trade value only lasts for so much longer.

You hope (maybe even expect) they change their mind awhile down the road, but it'd be unreasonable under these circumstances to prepare for the contingency that a week or two later they do a complete 180.

This.

I think the Mavs have done as much homework on the Paul situation as anyone can reasonably expect. The probability that New Orleans would suddenly do an about-face before the season is so low that it's irrational to make your plans based off that.

mavErika · 07-22-2010, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I wouldn't just say it's not completely fair, I'd say it's completely unfair to expect them to do anything more than make repeated efforts to offer everything we have except the one guy who we're keeping.

There's reading the market, and then there's reading minds. When the Hornets tell you "no" over and over and over and you've offered everything you've got, it'd be unreasonable to sit around and insist to yourself that they still might change their mind anytime soon. It's especially unreasonable when you have an asset whose trade value only lasts for so much longer.

You hope (maybe even expect) they change their mind awhile down the road, but it'd be unreasonable under these circumstances to prepare for the contingency that a week or two later they do a complete 180.

I could add two more things that speak for the front office (if I remember the the chronology of events correctly):

- first the Hornets GM Bower was fired in part because he wouldn't stop entertaining the idea of getting Paul his wish and trade him away (btw, without him being as obviously disgruntled as he is now, NO then would have had much more leverage in trade talks than now)
- then TC was almost included in a three-team trade and shipped to Toronto, so when the Mavs jumped in at this point to acquire him and dump Carroll and Najera in the process (maybe the last chance to do so), vague pledges to finish the deal at some point later in the offseason wouldn't have been enough for Charlotte to walk away from that trade

With the secondary goal on mind of dumping some bad contracts to increase their willingness to acquire new ones in a future trade, and seemingly no way of getting a (Super-)Star player this offseason, the MBT had no longer control over the timing of such a deal, or at least not enough incentive to keep control over it.

dude1394 · 07-25-2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I wouldn't just say it's not completely fair, I'd say it's completely unfair to expect them to do anything more than make repeated efforts to offer everything we have except the one guy who we're keeping.

There's reading the market, and then there's reading minds. When the Hornets tell you "no" over and over and over and you've offered everything you've got, it'd be unreasonable to sit around and insist to yourself that they still might change their mind anytime soon. It's especially unreasonable when you have an asset whose trade value only lasts for so much longer.

You hope (maybe even expect) they change their mind awhile down the road, but it'd be unreasonable under these circumstances to prepare for the contingency that a week or two later they do a complete 180.

What is even more unfair is that even in trading the dampier chip for chandler instead of AlJefferson (who I still like better than chandler) they kept their powder dry on being able to do the deal. I find this criticism unwarranted.

dude1394 · 07-25-2010, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't think it matters. The bottom line is it's up to them to read the market correctly. It may not be completely fair, but if you fold your hand with Damp and then a weak later Paul is traded for cap relief, you deserve to be questioned and criticized.

I have to agree with you that it is not being fair. It's impossible to be a mind reader. Just like the Orlando deal last year, stuff happens and you are sitting there with damp all over your face. Should they have known Gortat would be matched???

In the same breath should they know that NO is going to do this? If it's better for NO's to wait a year then they wait a year. It's completely their call and arbitrary, I don't see much market read at all for this. The mavs obviously had some inkling that this might happen as they tried the kitchen sink approach earlier but NO's were not buying. Who would know CP3 more than they do and yet they didn't see this coming.

Knowing the market doesn't mean every stock pick is correct.

SMC0007 · 07-22-2010, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

What else could they have done? Word is they offered literally everything short of Dirk several times, including right before they greenlighted the Chandler trade. If the Hornets change their mind now, and they end up trading him to someone else for cap relief, I'm just not sure what else the Mavs could have done?

+

SMC0007 · 07-22-2010, 04:17 PM

dbl

dude1394 · 07-25-2010, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

If Chris Paul is traded before the coming season for a package of cap relief, picks and young talent, the Mavs are going to have some serious, serious egg on their faces.

I don't think it's very likely, but this has me feeling a little uneasy.

why is that? You cannot blame the mavs for waiting until he does/doesn't make up his mind? Are you talking about the dust chip or something?

jcm28 · 07-22-2010, 11:19 AM

Lol, its funny how we all called him cristina but now we want him over here.

Zki41 · 07-22-2010, 12:33 PM

I think we have a better chance than most may think in terms of getting a trade done. I've heard LA, Orlando, New York, Portland, and Dallas in the competition.

LA doesn't have any true young/talents or expirings. Odom, Bynum, Pau, Bryant, Artest are all on long term contracts. Either the Hornets are not interested, or the Lakers would not give in this instance.

New York has lots of young talent, but in order to match match the potential salary dump of Okafor and Posey, they would literally have to shell out their whole team, full of young talent. That's Gallinari, Chandler, Walker, Randolph, Douglas, Azubuke, Turiaf, etc. I'm not sure it's reasonable for them to part with that for Chris Paul cause they would not have a team outside Chris Paul and Stoudemire. They have no picks either. I think they maintain cap flexibility and a roster of young talent and try to pick up Parker and Anthony in free agency and Paul when he gets to that point.

Portland I haven't done my research on, too lazy too right now.

Orlando has talent, but some of it is redundant, and none of them are cap-friendly, affordable short-term contracts other than Pietrus (who is their only expiring). Also, one of their biggest pieces, Nelson, is probably something New Orleans isn't looking for. They already have a point guard, no need to take on a huge financial burden. They may be interested in Bass and Gortat and Pietrus ... though I think the ceiling on those players has become somewhat evident. I doubt they want any piece of Vince Carter or Rashard Lewis. J.J. Redick is also another attractive option. The problem is even if B/G/P/J are good options, Orlando has no expirings to make up the other half of the salary they would have to give back and that's probably a deal breaker.

As for Dallas.

I would try to push:

Paul/Okafor/Posey

for

Roddy/Chandler/Ajinca/Stevenson/Terry/Barea, two firsts and cash for a potential Jason Terry buy out after this season.
(Also, this has to be after September 13th so Chandler/Ajinca can be traded with other players)

I really want to hold on to Butler since we need him to be that third option on offense. While I would go for Paul regardless, Paul + Dirk + offensive role players may not be able to get the job done. We may end up having to put in his contract and keep Terry :/

Paul/Kidd
Butler/DoJo
Marion/Posey
Dirk/x
Haywood/Okafor/Mahinmi

I think Okafor and Posey are not very bad acquisitions.

Posey means we will have a good defensive role player on the floor at all times. Posey can shoot from behind the arc as well, giving us a little bit of variety at that spot. Marion is obviously better for the garbage points.

Okafor, while not the most athletic player, would do well as a back up center, especially since all we really need him to do is rebound and get easy points. Obviously, he's overpaid, but thats the price to get Paul.

jthig32 · 07-22-2010, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zki41

As for Dallas.

I would try to push:

Paul/Okafor/Posey

for

Roddy/Chandler/Ajinca/Stevenson/Terry/Barea, two firsts and cash for a potential Jason Terry buy out after this season.
(Also, this has to be after September 13th so Chandler/Ajinca can be traded with other players)

Doesn't work. You can't trade Chandler and Ajinca as part of a package.

You can trade Chandler straight up for Okafar, and then Butler/Stevenson/Barea/Roddy (and copious amounts of picks and cash) for Paul and Posey.

I don't think you're getting them to take Terry.

chumdawg · 07-22-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Doesn't work. You can't trade Chandler and Ajinca as part of a package.

Why not?

jthig32 · 07-22-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Why not?

You have to wait two months after acquiring a player in a trade to trade him again as part of a package

chumdawg · 07-22-2010, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

You have to wait two months after acquiring a player in a trade to trade him again as part of a package

That's exactly what he said.

MavsX · 07-22-2010, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Why not?

even i knew that! and i don't know dick about the cba or the trade exception..hell i don't even know what the MLE is for...luxury tax? forgettabout it!

mac222b · 07-22-2010, 01:09 PM

Portland would be sending Batum, Fernandez, Bayless, picks & Pryzbilla& Andre Miller for contracts. that only get's them to around 21 million. not enough to include Okafor. i suppose they could include Oden as well. No could have the option whether or not to extend the qualifying offer next year.
New York cant trade any of those new guys, except for straight up, for a while.
for Orlando, VC is a team team option after this season. not sure whats guaranteed but his IS an attractive expiring--17mil. they would probably send Gortat, Anderson, VC, Pietrus and picks and could take back 2 bad contracts. can Reddick be traded yet?
Dallas could offer Roddy, Chandler, Stevenson, Jet, JJB, picks and cash.
but they would probably have to include Butler.
if NO doesnt care as much about dumping Posey then it opens up the bidding a bit.
i could see Portland being the team to beat. Batum is very well regarded, even though he's not a big name. Oden,Batum, Fernandez, Bayless. or Roddy, Caron, JJB, Dojo(?)
all things being relatively equal Portland probably wins out. they get to send CP out of the division and get back Batum at a position of need and other young cheap options. as well as some flexibility w/ Oden.
wouldve been nice to have the Dust to instantly erase 13 million...

Windmill360 · 07-22-2010, 02:08 PM

We can, but we would have to wait a while.

jacktruth · 07-22-2010, 02:48 PM

CP3 was late on announcing his refusal to play. He said once that he wanted to be traded, but it he upped that to a demand since the Miami Heatstakes. The Mavs case was stronger with the Damp chip, but it's harder now.

Portland is a good team, but they don't have near the committment to be a winner that Dallas has.

Basically, I think Dallas is the best place for Paul, but because he waited it's less likely that this is where he ends up.

sike · 07-22-2010, 04:40 PM

I'm interested in his reason for mentioning the Mavs as one of his possible teams...

SMC0007 · 07-22-2010, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I'm interested in his reason for mentioning the Mavs as one of his possible teams...

Same reason every big player uses us...

sike · 07-22-2010, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Same reason every big player uses us...

I suppose you mean he is just mentioning us to "use" us to get the attention of the team he actually wants to play for?

sike · 07-22-2010, 04:49 PM

After giving up all that talent for Paul (Butler, Roddy, picks, etc), I'm still not sure if the team as enough offensive punch to battle with the big boys of the league. Other than Paul and Dirk, who can score?

jthig32 · 07-22-2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

After giving up all that talent for Paul (Butler, Roddy, picks, etc), I'm still not sure if the team as enough offensive punch to battle with the big boys of the league. Other than Paul and Dirk, who can score?

Jet. And Kidd hits open threes.

A starting five of Paul, Kidd, Marion, Dirk, Haywood with Okafor, Posey and Jet coming off the bench is a title contender.

When you're pairing two of the top ten players in the NBA together, all you need after that is the right role players.

sike · 07-22-2010, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Jet. And Kidd hits open threes.

Its been proven in recent playoff series that those two cannot be counted upon to play consistent 3rd fiddle. Unless you think Paul makes them better playoff performers.

Quote:

When you're pairing two of the top ten players in the NBA together, all you need after that is the right role players.

thats the theory...

jthig32 · 07-23-2010, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Its been proven in recent playoff series that those two cannot be counted upon to play consistent 3rd fiddle. Unless you think Paul makes them better playoff performers.

How could he not? The problem last year was that there was no second fiddle.

And I don't really take one playoff series as definitive proof of anything.

sike · 07-23-2010, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

How could he not? The problem last year was that there was no second fiddle.

And I don't really take one playoff series as definitive proof of anything.

eh. I've seen more than enough playoff series where JT didn't show up as needed and Kidd just can't do much of anything in the half court other than spot up.

I'd do the move bc it would bring in a top 5(?) talent...but I'm not sold it would be a dynamic roster.

SMC0007 · 07-23-2010, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

How could he not? The problem last year was that there was no second fiddle.

And I don't really take one playoff series as definitive proof of anything.

There was more than one problem last year, that is for sure. To pinpoint it all down to not having a second fiddle is ridiculous.

dude1394 · 07-25-2010, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

After giving up all that talent for Paul (Butler, Roddy, picks, etc), I'm still not sure if the team as enough offensive punch to battle with the big boys of the league. Other than Paul and Dirk, who can score?

The closing offense for the last decade has been the dirk/jet pnr. Throw in some josh howard sometimes. Now think of the dirk/paul pnr..where paul is a infinitely better distributor/scorer and driver than jet is. It's so not close that it's scary.

Jkiddo wasn't going to do anything but spot up 3 anyway. Get the center moving and the 3 moving and you've got something going on. They don't have to be isolation scorers with paul running it.

sefant77 · 07-22-2010, 05:15 PM

Knicks or Blazers.

rabbitproof · 07-22-2010, 05:19 PM

Unless we get Paul, I can only treat this development with disgust. DIS-GUST, I SAY!!

1) I think the Mavs are below average at trading. Kidd-Harris is a wash (when Kidd was forcing the trade to us). Stack chip fetched us Marion, whose contract is the new JET. Super-expiring Damp went for an expensive one-year rental on Chandler and a center we're trying to trade already.

2) This is some proof of where Dallas stands, for all the talk of being a big market, amongst the minds of the players. People like living on the coasts. People like New York, California and Florida. That's where the international cities, ad agencies, media HQs and other celebs reside. If you want to make it to the cover of any major magazine regularly, you rep the coast.

EDIT: by major, I mean something that transcends sports. Time magazine, etc.