Back To Big Z

[XERXES]

I know that some of us love Z and some of us are less enamored...but I think we can all agree that he is an improvement over ANYTHING currently on the roster at the 5 spot...

So, (this is a question for PE, KG, and the like) can we help the Cavs match Utah's ridiculous offer for Boozer by helping them rid themselves of Z's contract? According to the Cleveland papers, they really want to match the offer on Boozer - but they see trading Z as one of their only opportunities to free up the cash...

Would it work?

[SeriousSummer]

Reply, I'm not a professional capologist, but this is an easy question. The answer is a qualified yes--in two possible ways.

1. Trades have to match within 15% plus 100,000. So, since Z makes about $14 million, we could do a trade with Cleveland where we sent back 85% of his salary (about $11.9 million) less 100k or about $11.8 million. If his salary were exactly $14 million (it's not) then that woudl increase Cleveland's cap room by $2.2 million. That's not enough to match Utah, but I suppose it's a start. Cleveland might be able to get enough cap room by waiving a player or two.

2. We could involve another team that has cap room (Atlanta looks like the most likely suspect). For example, if Z comes to us, then we could ship Laettner to Cleveland (saving them $7 million in cap room) and Stackhouse to Atlanta (because we have to give up as much salary as we take in [plus or minus 15% and $100k). Atlanta has to give up something to make it a trade, so they give us a second round draft choice.

In sum:

Dallas gives up:
Laettner and Stackhouse
Dallas gets:
Z

Cleveland gives up:
Z
Cleveland gets:
Laettner (and cap room)

Atlanta gives up:
Second round draft choice
Atlanta gets:
Stackhouse

[SeriousSummer]

The dreaded double post.

[V2M]

Without Boozer's salary, I've heard Cleveland is already $2M under the cap. They could send a player or two to Houston in exchange for their TE which I believe is $6.9M (from their Glen Rice trade last year).

That may be enough but if not, they could certainly trade Z and recover another $2.2M as explained already by SeriousSummer.

And btw, I'm one of those not too enamored by Z. He may be an upgrade over what we have now but certainly not a long-term solution.

[DubOverdose]

I think Stackhouse is staying. Cuban said that he will be important because he gets in to the paint and makes it to the line

[kg_veteran]

Serious - Good explanation. The only hitch I see in your example is that you have the Mavs trading both Laettner and Stackhouse together in a package (even though they wind up with different teams). That's prohibited until August 24 -- too late for the Cavs to match.

The Mavs could, however, send Walker to Atlanta and have Atlanta send a player back to Cleveland (such as Jason Terry). That would clear enough space, I think. If they wanted to be sure, they could use an even lower-priced player like Chris Crawford.

[SeriousSummer]

kg, I thought you could move players within the sixty day period as part of a three-way deal. Is that wrong?

[kg_veteran]

You can move players within the 60 day period if you move them by themselves. In other words, we can trade Laettner alone or Stackhouse alone for other player(s). However, if you package them together, you have to wait 60 days.

[ddh33]

I know that Cleveand would love to position themselves to match that offer, but I don't think they will be able to get it done. I think Utah even frontloaded it.

I think there is a better chance that Dallas goes after Z and lets Walker try to replace Boozer in Cleveland.

[grndmstr_c]

I think there is a better chance that Dallas goes after Z and lets Walker try to replace Boozer in Cleveland.

If Clevland would go for that I would have absolutely no problem with it. I certainly think with the Boozer situation that there's a better chance of it now than there would have been otherwise.

[Max Power]

Plus I believe the Mavs have a small trade exception - not much but every little bit helps.

[madape]

Personally, I don't think Ilgauskas is an improvement over one center on our roster who deserves to play, but that's besides the point. Pavel and Mbenga are years away from contributing. I don't want to see another power forward like Fortson, Najera, or Walker playing at the five. I'd prefer not to see Dirk there either. We need another big man to rotate with Bradley. Z brings another look at that spot than Shawn does. He'd definitely be a valuable weapon. I think he could be aquired relatively cheaply. I'd much prefer him over Dampier.

[dalmations202]

With Boozer going from Cleveland. Walker for Big Z makes sense. Dallas probably having to throw in a draft pick (2nd rounder) or cash to make it go through.

Walker takes Boozer spot and runs with LBJ -- that might be pretty good. They turn the center position over to Battie/Diop. If they wanted Delk for Wagner, I'd still do the deal.

Big Z in Dallas would be nice, if the plan is to start Big Z with Bradley and Benga as backups. PPod in Europe or anywhere he could get massive playing time. Good grief he needs time on the court in a game situation.

[madape]

We might need to take back the bloated contracts of Kevin Ollie and Ira Newble, but that may not be so bad. We could really use a veteran PG. Ollie is a good defensive PG who takes care of the ball well. Ollie is a scrub, but he might find a place here until Harris is ready to take over. Newble is also purported to be a good perimeter defender, something we certainly need to improve upon.

We probably would need to send Cleveland Josh Howard, as they won't want to give up Ilgauskas for just Antoine Walker and cap flexibility. I would be perfectly OK with this. I like Howard, but he'll have a tough time finding minutes behind Finley, Stackhouse, and Daniels. Najera might also be a candidate. He seems to fit the Silas mold.

Big Z isn't perfect, but he's easilty a top ten NBA center. I wouldn't think twice about doing this deal:

Dallas gets: Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Ira Newble, Kevin Ollie - $20,033,000
Cleveland gets: Josh Howard, Antoine Walker, Eduardo Najera - $19,258,163

The lineup:
C: Ilgauskas, Bradley, Mbenga
PF: Nowitski, Laettner, Fortson
SF: Finley
SG: Stackhouse, Newble
PG: Daniels, Harris, Ollie

IR: Podskalzine, Avery Johnson, Tariq Abdul-Wahed

[SaltwaterChaffy]

I would not give up Howard to get Big Z. Like Ape said, I think we have a more than capable center in Bradley if Nellie ever played him, and I'm really excited about Mbenga. I think he contributes at least 15 minutes this year. Giving up Howard is a dealbreaker for me. If it's just Walker, I would make the trade.

[grndmstr_c]

Giving up Howard is a dealbreaker for me. If it's just Walker, I would make the trade.

Yup.

[madape]

A deal breaker? Really? You think much more highly of Howard than I do. This franchise could FINALLY shore up it's center position with a real top ten cetner and you want to pass because of Howard? To me Howard is a nice backup small forward. Despite what you've heard, he's not a terribly good defender. In my opinion, he's just not quick enough to guard most NBA small forwards. He tends to be a litlte out of control on offense. He doesn't have NBA range on his shot. What he does have is quick hands and extremely long arms that help him disrupt passing lanes and get a hell of a lot of rebounds. Those are good skills, but not good enough for me to pass up on Ilgauskas.

Think of it this way, Ilgauskas is what? The fifth or sixth best center in the NBA? I think I'd put him in that range, wouldn't you?
Howard is about, what? The 30th or 40th best small forward in the league? I'd put him in that range, too.

Center is a much tougher position to fill than small forward.

I'd much rather have the league's 6th best center starting for the Mavericks than I would the league's 40th best small forward coming off our bench.

[grndmstr_c]

Madape, you didn't propose a swap of Howard for Z. You proposed Howard plus Walker plus filler (eddie) for Z and junk. I'd do Walker and filler for Z and junk, but I'm not interested in losing Walker AND Josh to bring in Z when we're also having to take on junk pieces and not clearing any space on the roster. It's just not worth it to me.

As for your ranking of Josh, I think you're underrating him. Hollinger's PER system has him rated as the 20th best SF last year. He also had a solid +/- (only Dirk's was better among regular Mav contributors). He was the leading vote-getter on the all-rookie second team in one of the best draft classes in recent memory. The kid has value.

[madape]

Well, Howard is coming off the bench for us, so that should tell you something about his worth to this team at least. Cuban stated as much after the game this weekend "It will be hard for Howard to get minutes betweeen Fin Stack and Daniels but he will be getting some". I'm quoting second hand from another board.

Regardless of where you rank Howard among NBA small forwards (and by the way, I think 20 is way, way too high), for the Mavericks, he ranks behind three players.

I get the feeling that Walker is definitely out of here on the 15th. I'm also starting to get suspicious that Howard is on his way out too. This team has room for both of them, but that role would likely as a backup with far fewer minutes than either had last year. It's just my opinion that if you can take two good backups and turn them into a really good starter like Ilgauskas, you've done a nice job. Again, I like both Howard and Walker. Both are really, really good players. But this team's biggest need is a starting center, not backup forwards. First and foremost, we need to rectify our center position. If that means losing a little depth at the three and four, so be it. We are oozing with depth as it is.

I don't see how Cleveland makes the trade without Howard. I don't see how the Mavericks pass if the Cavs they insist he be included.

[NewMexiMav]

I am all for trying to acquire Big Z (and Payton, as mentioned in the kg thread) if the price is right. But I see these moves as stop gap efforts to keep us competitve until the kids grow up. As such, do we want to trade away one of those kids to do it? I probably would, but I question the long term intellegence of such a move.

[kg_veteran]

If you have to throw Howard in to get Ilgauskas, you make the trade. The best move would be to simply trade Howard and Walker for Ilgauskas. That would reduce roster size and trade two backups for a starter at the elusive center spot.

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
If you have to throw Howard in to get Ilgauskas, you make the trade. The best move would be to simply trade Howard and Walker for Ilgauskas. That would reduce roster size and trade two backups for a starter at the elusive center spot.

I try to make it Delk or draft picks or Delk/Najera/Walker for XXXX/Big Z, before I agree to Howard.

But if that is the price....Then I make the deal just like you wrote, two backups for a starter at the 5.

[grndmstr_c]

I've seen a couple different versions of that statement by Cuban. The other version seemed to indicate a larger role for Howard than the one you're quoting.

Backup or not, though, Josh brings something to the court that neither Finley, Stack or Quis can. He may come off the bench but he's far from a redundant piece of the puzzle (our depth is really at SG; Josh and TAW are the only real SF's on the roster, IMO). Don't get me wrong. I definitely consider him tradeable, and I share your suspicions regarding the likelihood that he may get moved, if only because neither Quis nor Harris can be traded right now. I'm just not willing to give him up unless I'm getting something back that I really like or I'm giving up nothing else of value (eg., Walker), because I guarantee there are a lot of teams around the league that would love to get their hands on Josh.

[kg_veteran]

You have to pay a premium to get a center. Josh might be that premium.

[grndmstr_c]

The best move would be to simply trade Howard and Walker for Ilgauskas.

This to me would be far more palatable since it helps the roster situation and doesn't require the Mavs to take on any junk, though I'd still be in no hurry to make the deal.

Edit: do you think they would take Pavel instead of Josh?

[SeriousSummer]

If you go through Atlanta, then you could get Z as part of a salary drop.

[SaltwaterChaffy]

I agree with most of the sentiments here. But, Nellie is our coach for this year. Why would Nellie play Z anymore than he plays Bradley? Z is a good player on offense, but we've got scorers in Dirk, Fin, Stack, Quis. Z is not Bradley's equal on defense, which is what I want in the center for this team. I'm just not sure how well Z fits into our team. I think he's slow enough that he might bog the offense down. His defense isn't stellar. Plus, those foot problems could resurface. He may be a top 6 center, but I don't think he would be nearly as effective on this team.

I want the Mavericks center this year to be thinking defense first, which is why I would like to see it be played by Bradley and Mbenga play over someone like Z.

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: SaltwaterChaffy
I agree with most of the sentiments here. But, Nellie is our coach for this year. Why would Nellie play Z anymore than he plays Bradley? Z is a good player on offense, but we've got scorers in Dirk, Fin, Stack, Quis. Z is not Bradley's equal on defense, which is what I want in the center for this team. I'm just not sure how well Z fits into our team. I think he's slow enough that he might bog the offense down. His defense isn't stellar. Plus, those foot problems could resurface. He may be a top 6 center, but I don't think he would be nearly as effective on this team.

I want the Mavericks center this year to be thinking defense first, which is why I would like to see it be played by Bradley and Mbenga play over someone like Z.

He is an offensive guy, so Nellie might play him. He is still 7'3". He is a true Center. He keeps Nellie from moving Dirk to Center. All good reasons for him to be here.

[bcrav4]

Didn't Z average like 2.5 blocks last season......good enough for me!!!! Also, one last note...Big Z may be looking for a max contract once his current deal expires after next season.

Ilgauskas is scheduled to become an unrestricted free agent after the 2004-05 season. Rumors around the league say his agent could ask for a maximum contract from the Cavaliers.

LINK

[jayC]

I wouldn't give Big Z a maximum contract. I do agree he is a top 7 or 10 center in the league just how you look at it. Big Z is also better then what minnesota has in the middle, better then the spurs rasho or malik, and perhaps better then Brad Miller.

Suddenly the mavs have one of the best front court combos in the Western Conference.